"Religion of Peace?"

[paarsurrey]

Once again, you may be right. If you live in America, you know we cherish the tight of free speech. I have seen disgusting things said and done with Christian symbols, and images of Christ, but we consider free speech to include even this. A recent poll of American muslims found 60% of them believe that anyone who "defames" the prophet, should be killed. To me, that is taking a cherished right of Americans and speaking very dangerously about it. One can only wonder about other things. I have been fascinated by the Sufi, very interesting.

There is no such teaching in Quran. Please
Regards

 

[JustWondering]

So it's the drone attacks which so angered Muhammad and his god that started all the homicide bombings, vehicles being used as killing machines, shootings and stabbings, etc? Watch the videos I posted here The Great Palestinian Lie and tell me Muslims/jihadists are the victims you portray them to be.

The west has been interfering in the Middle east for five decades, drone strikes that routinely kill civilians is America's latest contribution to perpetuating a cycle of hatred and violence for years to come.

The problem is you seem to be equating Muslims to Jihadists. You really think that EVERY Muslim is a terrorist? What is the point of calling Islam a religion of war? Would you like peace? Do you think that bashing Muslims/Islam is going to result in a peaceful response from anyone?

 

[JustWondering]

Just so you know, most people on this forum will view your use of ad hominem attacks as a weakness of your arguments.

In post #587 you said the motivation for toppling Assad was to build a pipeline.

Your article on Kerry says the motivation for toppling Assad is because regional leaders view him as destabilizing the region.

Those are two very different motivations.

*sigh* There were TWO articles, the second article was specifically about the pipeline. Yes, a picture with a horse wearing blinders would definitely be a better avatar for you.

Secondly, how naïve are you that you think any government is going to honestly state they want to start a war because they want to make some money? What world do you live in where governments and corporations don't lie? Must be nice.

 

[icehorse]

Secondly, how naïve are you that you think any government is going to honestly state they want to start a war because they want to make some money? What world do you live in where governments and corporations don't lie? Must be nice.

I think we're done, you'll get the last word...

Once again, I'm happy to debate the claims, not so interested in your strawmans and ad hominems.

 

[JustWondering]

Well, we aren't getting much oil from Iraq. Soon the entire point will be moot, The US has enough reserves for total independce for a century.

Sorry but the only interest the west has in the ME is about oil. To say otherwise is naïve.

 

[JustWondering]

I'll agree that some horrible western interventions are a factor in the state of the ME. But you disregard centuries of history when you claim what you claim above. E.g. how do relatively recent western interventions create Muslim sectarian violence that's over a 1000 years old?

What I am addressing is the obvious fact that the west wants to secure the reliable production and exportation of oil from the middle east through military means when certain parties don't want to play ball. Spreading fear of Muslims/Islam is necessary for this to work since people aren't going to send their kids to die in other countries just to make some rich people richer.

Secondly, what's gained by calling Islam a religion of war? Where do you think making such statements and alienating Muslims is going to take us?

 

[JustWondering]

Of course I want peace. The truth is the truth, not bashing. If the sunlight of truth shows what islam is, they should be able to live with it, after all it.s their religion. I am accountable for the religion founded in the NT, they certainly should account for their religion founded in the koran and hadith. The thread asks, is their religion a religion of peace, their holy books show that it isn't.

I've tried wrapping my head around the Koran but it's difficult since it isn't ordered chronologically but by the length of the chapters. There are verses saying to kill non-believers but there are also verses saying to honor agreements with non-believers. There are versus that clearly state that Allah hates aggressors, that includes Muslims. There are verses that clearly state that Christians and Jews living among Muslims should not be mistreated as long as they live by the rules and pay a tax. I think that picking a few verses out of a large book without fully understanding the context is irresponsible. There is a lot of nasty stuff in the bible. How would you feel if someone said that ALL Christians are misogynists because of verses relating to women in the bible? Would you agree with that?

 

[JustWondering]

Aaaaarrrgghhhh, pipeline arguments make we want to poke my eyes out. 20 years of the same vapid, evidence free, pre-conceived nonsense.

Kosovo, Afghanistan, Syria... Pipelines one and all apparently.

Strangely enough no pipelines ever appear. Being consistently wrong for 20 years still doesn't put off the pipeline fanboys though.

So you think America invades countries in the ME to spread good ole democracy?

 

[JustWondering]

Oh please. This is pap.modern islamic terrorism began in 1947 with the creation of the state of Israel. Hezbollah, the PLO, hamas, Iranian support after the crazy mullahs took over is about this. Their attacks on Americans and the US is about Israel, even the we feed most of the so called Palestinian refugees who refused to live in a Jewish state. Lebanon, a Christian nation was invaded by these hordes of palestinians, and is now a muslim country where Christians are second class citizens. You want to blame someone, blame the UN that created the state of Israel, or that grandaddy of liberal thought, the Soviet union, who made the motion for the creation of Israel. isis is motivated by it's religion, not a bad drone strike, after all they brutally murder their own people, because they think they aren't moslem enough

So their conflict isn't over land and foreigners trying to dictate to them how to conduct their business, just religion? Furthermore, in this conflict Israel is blameless and the Muslims are totally at fault and horrible people? Does that sum up your views?

 

[JustWondering]

Once again, you may be right. If you live in America, you know we cherish the tight of free speech. I have seen disgusting things said and done with Christian symbols, and images of Christ, but we consider free speech to include even this. A recent poll of American muslims found 60% of them believe that anyone who "defames" the prophet, should be killed. To me, that is taking a cherished right of Americans and speaking very dangerously about it. One can only wonder about other things. I have been fascinated by the Sufi, very interesting.

Can you link this poll?

 

[JustWondering]

I posted several Islamic sources detailing Islam's code of violence for all Muslims to follow. Have you not read these?

Violence carried out in the name of Allah and Muhammad is approved in Islam.

There are around 1.5 billion Muslims on earth and the majority of them just want to live their lives like anybody else. Even if all Muslims admitted that there are violent verses in the Koran they are not going to leave Islam. Then what? Where are you headed with this?

 

[shmogie]

the Muslims are totally at fault a

Can you link this poll?

I am trying now to get name of polling entity, method of polling and specific dates of polling. I read it about 3 mos. ago. I will get you the info.

 

[shmogie]

What I am addressing is the obvious fact that the west wants to secure the reliable production and exportation of oil from the middle east through military means when certain parties don't want to play ball. Spreading fear of Muslims/Islam is necessary for this to work since people aren't going to send their kids to die in other countries just to make some rich people richer.

Secondly, what's gained by calling Islam a religion of war? Where do you think making such statements and alienating Muslims is going to take us?

Baloney, Saudi Arabia is stable and supplies a lessening percentage of our oil every year. It is nonsense to think that other than saudi and kuwait, we get oil from other middle eastern countries in any appreciable quantaties. Your comment re the rich getting richer betrays your firm socialist groundings and your total inability to grasp reality. I bet you weren't even born when the middle east cut off our oil supplies in the 70's, when a huge percentage came from them. You won't remember the destruction to the economy, waiting in lines for hours getting gas, the layoffs, high high prices, and the common people were injured. Trillions were lost across the spectrum. You most likely never experienced it so have no clue what you are blabbering wrongly about. As I said before, if it is the truth, it is the truth, moslems should alienate themselves from the violence prescribed in their holy books. I don't judge individual moslems, I comment on their scriptures, if they choose to be alienated, so be it.

 

[shmogie]

Sorry but the only interest the west has in the ME is about oil. To say otherwise is naïve.

Total nonsense

 

[Notanumber]

The west has been interfering in the Middle east for five decades, drone strikes that routinely kill civilians is America's latest contribution to perpetuating a cycle of hatred and violence for years to come.

The problem is you seem to be equating Muslims to Jihadists. You really think that EVERY Muslim is a terrorist? What is the point of calling Islam a religion of war? Would you like peace? Do you think that bashing Muslims/Islam is going to result in a peaceful response from anyone?

It is more than likely that not EVERY German was a Nazi but look what happened there.

 

[shmogie]

I've tried wrapping my head around the Koran but it's difficult since it isn't ordered chronologically but by the length of the chapters. There are verses saying to kill non-believers but there are also verses saying to honor agreements with non-believers. There are versus that clearly state that Allah hates aggressors, that includes Muslims. There are verses that clearly state that Christians and Jews living among Muslims should not be mistreated as long as they live by the rules and pay a tax. I think that picking a few verses out of a large book without fully understanding the context is irresponsible. There is a lot of nasty stuff in the bible. How would you feel if someone said that ALL Christians are misogynists because of verses relating to women in the bible? Would you agree with that?

Once again you are trying to play the switch the pea under the cup game. There are verses that say kill infidels, these commands are open ended and never stop till islam rules everybody. So now you are trying to draw a parrallel to the Jewish conguest of the 7 cannanite tribes, three thousand years ago in a tiny area that stopped when they had completed the task. There are no OT commands to continue forever killing non Jews, in fact there is just the opposite. Anyone who says that the scriptures of Christians fosters misogyny is a fool. Usually they trot out Pauls comment about women nor preaching, as the evidence. Paltry, he himself clearly stated that women were equal in all ways to men. The issue re preaching is based upon theology and symbolism, nothing more. There are NO commands that wives can be beaten, none that they cannot eat with men, none that they must be kept separate at social functions and on it goes. Stop playing the silly game. I have looked up your verses, and will respond shortly.

I find it funny that you are now so worried about context and if you think someone is not considering it, they are "irresponsible". When I took up your challenge re the OT acts you deem immorally violent, you specifically said, " I don't want to hear the taken out of context argument". My, how the worm turns.

 

[shmogie]

It is more than likely that not EVERY German was a Nazi but look what happened there.

Only about 10-15% were nazi's, but look what happened there !

 

[Augustus]

So you think America invades countries in the ME to spread good ole democracy?

In Iraq it was a significant factor (but not the only one). Neo-con ideology significantly predates Bush jnr, and Iraq was an ideological war (albeit a hubristic one). Neocon ideology is not altruistic though, it is about protecting American interests. There is a fair crossover between neocon and liberal interventionist ideologies, which is why several centre left politicians (Blair, etc) got involved.

For wars to happen, there tend to be a number of factors that combine and gain support from various factions. Reality has demonstrated that these tend not to involve pipelines.

 

[Notanumber]

What country and were those in uniforms police or military?

It was horrible to watch but educational none the less.

It wasn’t Pakistan according to this.

Pakistan PM says he is shocked by blasphemy killing - BBC News

Their Prime Minister says the state will not "tolerate" that citizens take the law "in their own hands".

It begs the question, how do Islamic countries enforce blasphemy laws and what method of execution is used?

 

[J2hapydna]

Once again, you may be right. If you live in America, you know we cherish the tight of free speech. I have seen disgusting things said and done with Christian symbols, and images of Christ, but we consider free speech to include even this. A recent poll of American muslims found 60% of them believe that anyone who "defames" the prophet, should be killed. To me, that is taking a cherished right of Americans and speaking very dangerously about it. One can only wonder about other things. I have been fascinated by the Sufi, very interesting.

Some of this bigotry I think comes from a significant number of first generation Muslims in the west . some of them simply don't understand the principles of secularism. Some of these people probably also think that Christians have the right to kill muslims if Muslims make fun of Christianity. So I think sometimes the data isn't scrubbed properly in polls such as this


Also, is there a statistic on what first generation Christians from non western countries think about this subject?

Also, I understand about 57% of evangelicals believe that non Christians can't be Americans. So all these rights you are talking about, evangelicals don't even think non Christians have them

You have to be Christian to truly be American? Many people in the U.S. say so.