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"Religion of Peace?"

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Some of this bigotry I think comes from a significant number of first generation Muslims in the west . some of them simply don't understand the principles of secularism. Some of these people probably also think that Christians have the right to kill muslims if Muslims make fun of Christianity. So I think sometimes the data isn't scrubbed properly in polls such as this


Also, is there a statistic on what first generation Christians from non western countries think about this subject?

Also, I understand about 57% of evangelicals believe that non Christians can't be Americans. So all these rights you are talking about, evangelicals don't even think non Christians have them

You have to be Christian to truly be American? Many people in the U.S. say so.
I don't know where you got your figures, but since my conversion to Christianity from atheism a long time ago I have never heard your assertion voiced that non Christians shouldn't be Americans. Also, if people believe that, tough, it isn't their ideas that count, it is what the Constitution says that rules. No, you are right, I have seen nothing about what first generation Americans from elsewhere think on the matter. I can't imagine ANY Christian feeling justified in killing anyone for their words.
 

hughwatt

Member
Thanks, but it was more about this video that got me wondering about what proportion of the crowd were Moderate Muslims and what would have happened to them if they had tried to stand up to the extremists.

Would they have been publically executed as well?

Those men in uniforms just stood and watched instead of taking the “criminal” into protective custody.

It seems to me that Moderate Muslims should be just as concerned about the spread of Islam as the rest of us.
Indeed they should. How many moderates would join the opposition if it meant them keeping their life for a while longer.
 

J2hapydna

Active Member
I don't know where you got your figures, but since my conversion to Christianity from atheism a long time ago I have never heard your assertion voiced that non Christians shouldn't be Americans. Also, if people believe that, tough, it isn't their ideas that count, it is what the Constitution says that rules. No, you are right, I have seen nothing about what first generation Americans from elsewhere think on the matter. I can't imagine ANY Christian feeling justified in killing anyone for their words.

As the link to the Washington Post says:

Pew found that 57 percent of white evangelical Protestants thought it was very important to be Christian in order to be American

Yes I agree, the constitution is important. However, if a large percentage of a population thinks someone is not an American regardless of what is in the constitution, and if these people control the state legislative, judicial, law enforcement and administrative functions, then what is theoretically written in the constitution doesn't really matter for all practical purposes.
 
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Notanumber

A Free Man
Does this video teach you anything that you didn’t already know about Islam and Sharia?


If so, what was it that you learned from watching it?

Is the veil a means of concealing the evidence of domestic violence?
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
As the link to the Washington Post says:



Yes I agree, the constitution is important. However, if a large percentage of a population thinks someone is not an American regardless of what is in the constitution, and if these people control the state legislative, judicial, law enforcement and administrative functions, then what is theoretically written in the constitution doesn't really matter for all practical purposes.
Taking your poll as being accurate, half of Evangelicals feel this way. Like in Islam, Christianity is not monolithic. Half of the Evangelicals don't represent the majority by far of most Protestants and certainly not all of Christian America. I am totally confident that anyone trying to ignore the first amendment as far as the right of anyone to freely peacefully practice their religion as a politician would result in a massive backlash. Keep in mind that this right was written into the Constitution primarily Christians and to a lesser extent deists. I am an Evangelical, and would NEVER support this, and as I said earlier, I have never heard this voiced
 

hughwatt

Member
Please explain where does it say the Arabs waged jihad on Ethiopia, conquered it and forced the Christian s to pay Jizya etc?
You're straying too far from my initial point.

Mecca Muhammad behaved quite differently from Medina Muhammad. The former tried using the velvet glove approach to those who did not accept him as a prophet. The latter soon showed his other side when he'd gathered a strong army and used violence as a means of converting.
 

Notanumber

A Free Man
I have just been listening to Nick Ferrari on LBC radio and they were discussing the latest Parris attack.

Someone phoned in and told Nick that they should stop blaming ISIS for radicalising these terrorists when in reality they are following Islamic ideology and the teachings of Muhammad.

Nick would not listen to any of it and when the caller told him to read the Quran Nick started to build straw men by deflecting the argument towards the likes of Jimmy Saville, Dr Harold Shipman and Peter Sutcliffe.

Nick is obviously a clever person but the point is he failed to grasp that all these straw men were not religiously following an ideology based on scripture or perhaps he just did not want to admit that that is the case.

A while back on the same radio station someone phoned in and said that one of the killers of Lee Rigby was a nice guy.


Many people do not like Katie Hopkins but she is not afraid to call a spade a spade.


This is what I heard on the radio the other morning - Nick Dismantles Caller's Rant Against Muslims With Absurd Comparisons - LBC

There is only one comment but it confirms what I thought at the time.
 

Notanumber

A Free Man
It has been said that Islamic State use the internet as a recruiting tool, but if we didn’t have the internet for the purpose of reference Islamists would be able to tell us anything that suits their cause and we would not be able to refute it.

 

SabahTheLoner

Master of the Art of Couch Potato Cuddles
Is Islam a "religion of peace" as Muslims and an increasing number of people would have us believe?

With the current ongoing atrocities being carried out on practically a daily basis the question is asked and answered in the affirmative by Muslims, politicians and the public alike. But who are these people who are given air-time on TV, radio and the public leftist largely controlled media?


Is there another version of Islam which is being suppressed and hidden from general public viewing?

Facebook has recently submitted to demands from Muslims who accuse non-Muslims of the charge of "blasphemy" to have comments removed and at the same time blocked an advert promoting a Christian film. So where are we going with all this?


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“Your ad wasn’t approved because it doesn’t follow Facebook’s Advertising Guidelines for language that is profane, vulgar, threatening or generates high negative feedback,” Facebook reportedly wrote to producers of the film. “Ads can’t use language that insults, harasses or demeans people, or addresses their age, gender, name, race, physical condition or sexual preference.”

Many religions want peace, and will advocate it. Islam does have peaceful principles; in fact, one of the five pillars of Islam requires followers to regularly make donations to the poor (if they can afford it), usually in the form of spare coin. People, however, will always find ways to focus one principle found in religious texts and only zoom in on that and not consider the whole message. What matters more than the material is how it is interpreted. Unfortunately, there are many more ways to twist a religion than there is to simply accept it on largely peaceful terms. Most of the people who twist the message are looking for excuses to act poorly and so they turn to outdated principles used to advertise the religion. You see it with most philosophies.

Additionally, I would like to point out that many of the current Middle-eastern conflicts are not directly due to religion but social oppression. Religiously, the groups are slightly different (look up Shia and Sunni Islam if you wish to know how they are), but it's more a lengthy power-gain fistfight than a radical religious disagreement gone haywire, even though religion played into the divide in the first place.
 

Notanumber

A Free Man
Many religions want peace, and will advocate it. Islam does have peaceful principles; in fact, one of the five pillars of Islam requires followers to regularly make donations to the poor (if they can afford it), usually in the form of spare coin. People, however, will always find ways to focus one principle found in religious texts and only zoom in on that and not consider the whole message. What matters more than the material is how it is interpreted. Unfortunately, there are many more ways to twist a religion than there is to simply accept it on largely peaceful terms. Most of the people who twist the message are looking for excuses to act poorly and so they turn to outdated principles used to advertise the religion. You see it with most philosophies.

Additionally, I would like to point out that many of the current Middle-eastern conflicts are not directly due to religion but social oppression. Religiously, the groups are slightly different (look up Shia and Sunni Islam if you wish to know how they are), but it's more a lengthy power-gain fistfight than a radical religious disagreement gone haywire, even though religion played into the divide in the first place.

Numerous hadith also mention giving to the poor (within the Muslim community). This is the zakat, or almsgiving, that has become one of the "five pillars" of Islam.

The zakat (almsgiving) may be one of the five pillars of Islam, but the Hadith only speaks of it as a requirement to help fellow Muslims ("taken from among you and distributed among you"). Non-Muslims are not entitled to the zakat by virtue of their need, and mainstream Islamic teaching forbids Muslims to give this to unbelievers. The website TheZakat.org, for example, lists unbelievers along with the wealthy, strong and healthy as being prohibited from receiving zakat (although some Muslims may personally disagree with this).

While Islamic scholars forbid giving zakat to non-Muslims in physical need - including the victims of Islamic terror - it is acceptable to use zakat in defense of accused Muslim terrorists.

Interestingly, the Quranic verse that is said to be the basis for zakat (9:103) comes from the most violent and intolerant of suras. Its context also appears to be that of a penance taken from the property of 'hypocrites' for their sinfulness and failure to participate in battle against unbelievers.

Islamic charities that raise funds openly in the West are savvy enough to downplay the fact that beneficiaries of their assistance are selected by ethnicity, which would not go over well with non-Muslim donors. They are also known to advertise "window dressing" projects on their websites or literature, in which they claim a role in prominent disasters or causes (in disproportion to their actual contribution or concern). It is usually enough to fool others into not looking deeper.

Generally speaking, international Islamic charities are better known for funding terrorism and hate than in meeting the actual needs of natural disaster victims (bankrolling Jihad through charitable giving is mandated by the Quran 9:60). In 2014, the UAE determined that fifteen well-known Muslim charities - including the world's largest - were actually sponsoring Islamic terrorism.

Even at its most legitimate, Muslim charity to the poor is heavily tainted by ulterior political and racial agenda, such as lopsided support for Palestinians to the exclusion of Darfur victims, who suffer much worse. The latter are also Muslim, but they don't count since they are Africans being oppressed by an Islamic-Arab regime. (The rule is that Muslims generally ignore the suffering of other Muslims unless non-Muslims can be held responsible).

Islam, Charity and Disaster Relief
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
"A recent poll of American muslims found 60% of them believe that anyone who "defames" the prophet, should be killed."
There is no such teaching in Quran. Please
Regards
The followers' actions cannot bind the Prophet, if he did not give any teaching in the Quran- the first and the foremost source of Islam/Muhammad whatever the denomination of the Muslims.
The followers are responsible for such wrong-doings it has nothing to do with Islam/Quran/Muhammad.
Regards
 
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hughwatt

Member
Many religions want peace, and will advocate it. Islam does have peaceful principles; in fact, one of the five pillars of Islam requires followers to regularly make donations to the poor (if they can afford it), usually in the form of spare coin. People, however, will always find ways to focus one principle found in religious texts and only zoom in on that and not consider the whole message. What matters more than the material is how it is interpreted. Unfortunately, there are many more ways to twist a religion than there is to simply accept it on largely peaceful terms. Most of the people who twist the message are looking for excuses to act poorly and so they turn to outdated principles used to advertise the religion. You see it with most philosophies.

Additionally, I would like to point out that many of the current Middle-eastern conflicts are not directly due to religion but social oppression. Religiously, the groups are slightly different (look up Shia and Sunni Islam if you wish to know how they are), but it's more a lengthy power-gain fistfight than a radical religious disagreement gone haywire, even though religion played into the divide in the first place.
Give me one Islamic verse that says Muslims want peace with non-Muslims who refuse to pay the jizya.
 

hughwatt

Member
"A recent poll of American muslims found 60% of them believe that anyone who "defames" the prophet, should be killed."

The followers actions cannot bind the Prophet, if he did not give any teaching in the Quran- the first and the foremost source of Islam/Muhammad whatever the denomination of the Muslims.
That's right. So when Muhammad and his god say to kill the unbeliever Muslims are right in following their attacks against non-Muslims. Right?

The followers are responsible for such wrong-doings it has nothing to do with Islam/Quran/Muhammad.
Regards
The Koran/Islam doesn't encourage violence towards non-Muslims?

Surah 9.5
And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

Surah 9.29
Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.
 
Baloney, Saudi Arabia is stable and supplies a lessening percentage of our oil every year. It is nonsense to think that other than saudi and kuwait, we get oil from other middle eastern countries in any appreciable quantaties. Your comment re the rich getting richer betrays your firm socialist groundings and your total inability to grasp reality. I bet you weren't even born when the middle east cut off our oil supplies in the 70's, when a huge percentage came from them. You won't remember the destruction to the economy, waiting in lines for hours getting gas, the layoffs, high high prices, and the common people were injured. Trillions were lost across the spectrum. You most likely never experienced it so have no clue what you are blabbering wrongly about. As I said before, if it is the truth, it is the truth, moslems should alienate themselves from the violence prescribed in their holy books. I don't judge individual moslems, I comment on their scriptures, if they choose to be alienated, so be it.

First, Saudi Arabia plays ball, we scratch their back they scratch ours, I've already mentioned that in this thread.

Second, Oil is big business and the 1% will do what's necessary to safe guard their money. Thinking otherwise is childishly naïve.

Third, the oil embargo supports my position more than yours, I don't know why you'd bring it up.

Finally, just because a religion says to do something doesn't mean people are going to follow it. Look at Christianity for example. Most Christians ignore 90+% of what the bible says and basically do what they want. Most people turn to their holy scriptures AFTER they've decided to do something to see if it can be justified FURTHER.
 
Total nonsense

Then why are we so eager to invade and drop bombs on people in the middle east? You realize that these terrorists we're so afraid of don't have a country, tanks, planes, etc... If the west didn't have money tied up in the ME, we wouldn't care. Why aren't we all over Africa hunting terrorists? It's only common sense that self interest is at the core of what any nation does.

Critical Issues Facing Africa: Terrorism, War, and Violence
 
Once again you are trying to play the switch the pea under the cup game. There are verses that say kill infidels, these commands are open ended and never stop till islam rules everybody. So now you are trying to draw a parrallel to the Jewish conguest of the 7 cannanite tribes, three thousand years ago in a tiny area that stopped when they had completed the task. There are no OT commands to continue forever killing non Jews, in fact there is just the opposite. Anyone who says that the scriptures of Christians fosters misogyny is a fool. Usually they trot out Pauls comment about women nor preaching, as the evidence. Paltry, he himself clearly stated that women were equal in all ways to men. The issue re preaching is based upon theology and symbolism, nothing more. There are NO commands that wives can be beaten, none that they cannot eat with men, none that they must be kept separate at social functions and on it goes. Stop playing the silly game. I have looked up your verses, and will respond shortly.

I find it funny that you are now so worried about context and if you think someone is not considering it, they are "irresponsible". When I took up your challenge re the OT acts you deem immorally violent, you specifically said, " I don't want to hear the taken out of context argument". My, how the worm turns.

Please name the verses from the bible that state that women are equal to men in all ways, if there are any.

Then you can show the verses that are against abortion. The bible does condone abortion in cases of infidelity fyi.

Then you can show the verses were Jesus discusses how slavery is evil.

Have you ever been disrespectful to your parents or done something that is considered work on the Sabbath, if so, the bible prescribes that you be stoned to death.

My point to you is that your religion isn't all flowers and puppies either. Telling someone else that their religion is horrible while ignoring the nasty bits of your own religion and culture is also the height of hypocrisy. I'll ask you again, what is it you hope to gain by blasting someone else's religion?
 
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