religion unites...yeah right...

[Kathryn]

but that is under the banner of racial equality, not religion?

No. It is SPECIFICALLY under the banner of religious unity. It is organized each year by the local mosque, a large Protestant church, the synagogue and the Catholic diocese. The march starts at the town square, with an opening by the local iman and then a prayer by the Protestant pastor, the rabbi, the priest and then ends with a service in the Catholic church downtown. It is very well attended every year, even though it is usually very cold and often raining that day.

In the service after the march (which is always PACKED - standing room only), various religious leaders speak and we sing hymns and songs from all sorts of religious traditions.

There is a very active interfaith movement in my mid size southern town.

 

[Revoltingest]

This unity thing is fine, as long as you don't carry it too far.
When Revoltistan is set upon by an angry mob with torches & pitchforks, I'd hate to see religious detente triple its size.
(Tis their safety which worries me.)

 

[waitasec]

No. It is SPECIFICALLY under the banner of religious unity. It is organized each year by the local mosque, a large Protestant church, the synagogue and the Catholic diocese. The march starts at the town square, with an opening by the local iman and then a prayer by the Protestant pastor, the rabbi, the priest and then ends with a service in the Catholic church downtown. It is very well attended every year, even though it is usually very cold and often raining that day.

In the service after the march (which is always PACKED - standing room only), various religious leaders speak and we sing hymns and songs from all sorts of religious traditions.

There is a very active interfaith movement in my mid size southern town.

i'm sure it's a great thing...but
let me put it like this... if if were not for MLK,
they wouldn't be coming together in the first place...
to honor MLK is what brings people together

 

[waitasec]

Isn't the previous post of the Methodist church opening its doors to Muslims so they have a place to worship an example of different faiths coming together? Other than religious ideas, worship and faith, what other reason would they be doing this?

that situation wasn't so peachy,was it?
some people left the congregation and the pastor got some flack for it from his peers...alex mcFarland was pretty vocal about it.
so even there we see that religion divides those in the same church...

 

[linwood]

Only according to your apparently prejudiced viewpoint.

No, actually the divisions are specified in writing according to different religions scriptural texts.

A huge portion of Judaic law exists for the sole reason of keeping "Others" from unity with Jews.
This cannot be denied if one has read the texts.
The same can be said for the Muslim faith, one has only to read the texts to see the ideology that separate Muslims from "The people of the book"(Jews/Christians).
Christianity indeed has it`s own divisive scripture as well.

Then there is the fact that most religious people I`ve ever met lives their lives with these lines of division as a guide to their morality.
I`m literally surrounded by them.

To deny these facts is disingenuous at best.

Many of us see no problem with endeavoring to promote unity!

Certainly, on a personal basis many religious folks disregard their divisive doctrine for a more humane outlook but that does not refute the fact that such ideology is indeed ingrained within their faith.

And very much appreciate the true religion that enables this, thankyouverymuch.

Ahh.."True" religion.
Exactly what are the objective standards that define such a thing?

Every religion I have ever studied is heavily founded on the concept of creating "others".

 

[lunamoth]

No. It is SPECIFICALLY under the banner of religious unity. It is organized each year by the local mosque, a large Protestant church, the synagogue and the Catholic diocese. The march starts at the town square, with an opening by the local iman and then a prayer by the Protestant pastor, the rabbi, the priest and then ends with a service in the Catholic church downtown. It is very well attended every year, even though it is usually very cold and often raining that day.

In the service after the march (which is always PACKED - standing room only), various religious leaders speak and we sing hymns and songs from all sorts of religious traditions.

There is a very active interfaith movement in my mid size southern town.

I've been active in a number of strong interfaith initiatives in past places I have lived, including Interfaith Councils and MKL celebrations that are, as Kathryn says, emphasized as interfaith, not just interracial.

These are broadly supported by area faiths, with the exception of fundamentalist Christian churches such as the one waitasec obviously escaped from. Waitasec, I am very glad you are not part of that twisted church anymore.

 

[waitasec]

I've been active in a number of strong interfaith initiatives in past places I have lived, including Interfaith Councils and MKL celebrations that are, as Kathryn says, emphasized as interfaith, not just interracial.

These are broadly supported by area faiths, with the exception of fundamentalist Christian churches such as the one waitasec obviously escaped from.

i'm interested in what these interfaith initiatives were for...

Waitasec, I am very glad you are not part of that twisted church anymore.

me too...

 

[lunamoth]

i'm interested in what these interfaith initiatives were for...

They have been for a wide range of reasons. Some have been purely social, under the idea that getting to know people of diverse religions and beliefs (including non-theists) simply as other people goes a long way in making the world a better place to live. Others have been educational, where the intent is to learn about other religions from those who practice those religions. Others have had goals like raising money to address world hunger or send aid after disasters. Some have been to raise awareness about environmentalism. Some have been aimed at promoting gender and racial equality.

This only includes those activities I've been part of that were initiated specifically by interfaith groups.

 

[waitasec]

They have been for a wide range of reasons. Some have been purely social, under the idea that getting to know people of diverse religions and beliefs (including non-theists) simply as other people goes a long way in making the world a better place to live. Others have been educational, where the intent is to learn about other religions from those who practice those religions. Others have had goals like raising money to address world hunger or send aid after disasters. Some have been to raise awareness about environmentalism. Some have been aimed at promoting gender and racial equality.

This only includes those activities I've been part of that were initiated specifically by interfaith groups.

that sounds really cool, and every encouraging.
do you live in a small town by chance?
i'm in los angeles and the small town vibe doesn't exist here for obvious reasons.
unless you get involved in your child's school...
and soup kitchens...other than that, i don't get to see interfaith efforts where i live. i just get the negative stuff from the news...

 

[lunamoth]

that sounds really cool, and every encouraging.
do you live in a small town by chance?
i'm in los angeles and the small town vibe doesn't exist here for obvious reasons.
unless you get involved in your child's school...
and soup kitchens...other than that, i don't get to see interfaith efforts where i live. i just get the negative stuff from the news...

Various places, one a very large mid-western city and another a smaller city in NY. Here is one that is near you: South Coast Interfaith Council

 

[Greyn]

that situation wasn't so peachy,was it?
some people left the congregation and the pastor got some flack for it from his peers...alex mcFarland was pretty vocal about it.
so even there we see that religion divides those in the same church...

Interestingly enough, after reading the Fox news story, the Aldersgate United Methodist congregation is actually the second church to invite Muslims to worship with them.

"Heartsong Church in Cordova, Tenn., let members of the Memphis Islamic Center hold Ramadan prayers there last September."

The Heartsong Church's endeavors to reach out to other faiths have gone so well, that their interactions have grown significantly.

"Heartsong's relationship with its Muslim neighbors has developed into an annual Thanksgiving meal between the two faiths, and the use of a joint 15-acre community park."

But, you have to give it to Fox news (God bless their conservative, little hearts), they went out and found one dissenting voice; making sure that his opinion was heard loud and clear (the good preacher was adamant that we were aware of the dangers of "hyper-tolerance" when dealing with other people (WWJD).)

And if you are really worried about the people that left, "You can't please all the people, all the time." As humans, we are weak, scared and stubborn, sometimes even when we know we are doing the right thing. I do wonder if the Aldersgate church gained any new parishioners since the outreach. I suppose we will never really know, since that was not news worthy enough for Fox to report.

The real issue is not whether religions divide. We know that people will use and abuse religious doctrine to achieve their own desires. That is not religion's fault, but human nature. The problem is that you can not see past your own anger towards religion to see when they are actually doing something good. That is really unfortunate. There are times when religions achieve some amazing, beautiful feats that go beyond what we would typically call "normal" human behavior.

 

[waitasec]

Various places, one a very large mid-western city and another a smaller city in NY. Here is one that is near you: South Coast Interfaith Council

thanks,
i will check out an event and tell you what i think...

 

[waitasec]

The real issue is not whether religions divide. We know that people will use and abuse religious doctrine to achieve their own desires. That is not religion's fault, but human nature.

read my signature...
it's just another excuse....

The problem is that you can not see past your own anger towards religion to see when they are actually doing something good.

maybe so...but nonetheless religion has been and will be used for ill...
which makes it not that special since it is dependent on human nature

That is really unfortunate. There are times when religions achieve some amazing, beautiful feats that go beyond what we would typically call "normal" human behavior.

like?

 

[Greyn]

read my signature...
it's just another excuse....

You have this backwards, it is human nature to take advantage and use things for selfish reasons; not religions (typically).

maybe so...but nonetheless religion has been and will be used for ill...
which makes it not that special since it is dependent on human nature

I agree...it is not that special that it is used for ill. As I have said, it is human nature to use people's beliefs, patriotism, charity, etc. etc. etc. for ill gains. Religion is no different than any other thing in the world in this sense.

like?

I am not sure I anything I say would make a difference. You don't seem to like most of the examples already given concerning religions working together. I am not sure I could make you see any beautiful acts done by religion, as well. I suggest you search them out yourself. They are not hard to find.

 

[waitasec]

You have this backwards, it is human nature to take advantage and use things for selfish reasons; not religions (typically).

just as it is human nature to do good things for the sake of goodness...

like i said, religion is just another excuse, correction, it is a "divine" excuse.

I am not sure I anything I say would make a difference. You don't seem to like most of the examples already given concerning religions working together. I am not sure I could make you see any beautiful acts done by religion, as well. I suggest you search them out yourself. They are not hard to find.

if you call people unified for a common purpose as

beautiful feats that go beyond what we would typically call "normal" human behavior.

i agree. but it is not exclusive to religious behavior...

 

[Greyn]

just as it is human nature to do good things for the sake of goodness......

Going to disagree with you on one part, I do not think people regularly perform purely good things for the sake of doing good. I think it is an exception from the norm for people to do something completely selfless and positive (and most of the time that can traced right back to religion).

like i said, religion is just another excuse, correction, it is a "divine" excuse.

I am not sure why you keep associating "excuse" with "reason". I can only assume that it is because your anger towards religion only allows you to see negative. Just as the examples of the churches opening their doors to other faiths, you could say religion gave them an excuse to do it. But, that is a negative way to present a positive action.

if you call people unified for a common purpose as

That is one way that religion can manifest itself positively. Keep looking and you will find more....if you want to.

i agree. but it is not exclusive to religious behavior...

Indeed, but as I said before that is the exception and most of the time it still can be traced back to religion.

 

[BruceDLimber]

I've already pointed out that the Baha'i Faith recognizes and respects other religions, and has fostering unity as its primary goal.

What others do or don't do is not our responsibility.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[waitasec]

Going to disagree with you on one part, I do not think people regularly perform purely good things for the sake of doing good. I think it is an exception from the norm for people to do something completely selfless and positive (and most of the time that can traced right back to religion).

well that isn't surprising. considering god says every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood...
which is an out right fallacy. most of the time it's just people who do selfless acts not in the name of god but in the name of goodness. this right here is another justification of how religion separates people from people.

I am not sure why you keep associating "excuse" with "reason". I can only assume that it is because your anger towards religion only allows you to see negative. Just as the examples of the churches opening their doors to other faiths, you could say religion gave them an excuse to do it. But, that is a negative way to present a positive action.

this particular incident is an exception to the rule...the churches action was not at all typical now was it? that is why it sticks out... interesting don't you think?

That is one way that religion can manifest itself positively. Keep looking and you will find more....if you want to.


Indeed, but as I said before that is the exception and most of the time it still can be traced back to religion.

there are other positive reasons why people join together, having nothing to do with religion...
religion perpetuates a separatist, and in some extreme cases, a supremacist mentality...
this right here is a great example of both...

see what i don't get is...
if religion is "exceptional", what act can a believer do that a non believer can't? in order to support that mentality there has to be something that is clear cut and undeniable. thus far these claims are vague and ambiguous... for obvious reasons....
people are people....no one is any better than the next guy...
why is that so hard for some to accept?

 

[Greyn]

well that isn't surprising. considering god says every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood...

I think you may find many other interpretations of this scriptural idea. Just look around and I will think you will find a better understanding of what it means.

which is an out right fallacy. most of the time it's just people who do selfless acts not in the name of god but in the name of goodness.

Well that is truly not my experience. Most of the time, people have self-serving motives for their actions even when they think they are doing good (and this includes religious people). But, I never said they did it in the name of God. I said that their religion has guided them to move away from doing things for themselves, but do things for others.

this right here is another justification of how religion separates people from people.

I am not sure how people doing selfless acts within the teachings of their religion or by their own decision is a justification that religion separates people.

this particular incident is an exception to the rule...the churches action was not at all typical now was it? that is why it sticks out... interesting don't you think?

First, you took a part of my sentence out of context and completely missed the point of the argument. It is interesting that you want to ignore your own anger towards religion. It seems to be clouding your judgment.

Second, you are correct it is not typical for people of inter-faiths (or any real difference) to come together, so harmoniously. You want to blame religions for dividing people, when it is really human nature to segregate. I say the church(es) in question are examples of how religion can build bridges that surpass the norm. People segregating is a human norm. It has nothing to do with religion (per se).

there are other positive reasons why people join together, having nothing to do with religion...

Completely agree.

religion perpetuates a separatist, and in some extreme cases, a supremacist mentality...

There is a good argument that this is true. There is also a good argument that says religions teach us that we must overcome the need to be decisive.

this right here is a great example of both...

Right where?

see what i don't get is...
if religion is "exceptional", what act can a believer do that a non believer can't?

Get into heaven, the afterlife, find enlightenment, Valhalla, break the Dharmic cycle, etc. etc…

in order to support that mentality there has to be something that is clear cut and undeniable. thus far these claims are vague and ambiguous... for obvious reasons....

As I have pointed out, people are naturally fearful of each other and change. Religion has the ability to bring people together, to overcome obstacles and resistance that simple human nature is not willing to do. This is faith we are talking about, not science. There comes a point you have to go on your gut feeling. If it feels right (I am not talking about pleasurable, but right), then it probably is right.

people are people....no one is any better than the next guy...
why is that so hard for some to accept?

Completely agree, no argument from me on this point.

I am believing that you had some pretty bad experiences with religion and you are looking through the lens of your experience at all of religion. This is unfortunate. If you want to see the good religion can and does do, then you have to shelve your limited, preconceived notions and try to see the world without the anger. Otherwise, you will always come up with the same conclusions.

 

[waitasec]

I think you may find many other interpretations of this scriptural idea. Just look around and I will think you will find a better understanding of what it means.

what are the 10 commandments, ideas? are you to take them as literal or metaphorical? well it's not an idea, acording to jesus and god we are innately evil... gen 8:21
"...Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though[a] every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood"

or what jesus says
mt 17: 9 “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!"
mk 7:20 “...What comes out of a person is what defiles them. 21 For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come"

and you are confirming this idea by saying:

I think it is an exception from the norm for people to do something completely selfless and positive (and most of the time that can traced right back to religion).

Well that is truly not my experience. Most of the time, people have self-serving motives for their actions even when they think they are doing good (and this includes religious people). But, I never said they did it in the name of God. I said that their religion has guided them to move away from doing things for themselves, but do things for others.

so are you saying...
people of faith can do good deeds, and their motives are sometimes selfish and sometimes selfless but people who do not follow a religious faith only do good deeds for selfish reasons? horsepucky...:areyoucra
i'll repeat what i said...most of the time it's just people who do selfless acts not in the name of god but in the name of goodness.

I am not sure how people doing selfless acts within the teachings of their religion or by their own decision is a justification that religion separates people.

nope, perhaps you misunderstood...this is what you said

I think it is an exception from the norm for people to do something completely selfless and positive (and most of the time that can traced right back to religion).

this is how religion separates people from people...the idea that religion makes people exceptional...separating people from people.

First, you took a part of my sentence out of context and completely missed the point of the argument. It is interesting that you want to ignore your own anger towards religion. It seems to be clouding your judgment.

i'm sorry could you please clarify...

Second, you are correct it is not typical for people of inter-faiths (or any real difference) to come together, so harmoniously. You want to blame religions for dividing people, when it is really human nature to segregate.

i've been saying that all along...people are people...religion is just a glorified excuse for good or bad...in other words, religion isn't to blame people are

I say the church(es) in question are examples of how religion can build bridges that surpass the norm. People segregating is a human norm. It has nothing to do with religion (per se).

i say the people who act on goodness are exceptional...religious or not

There is also a good argument that says religions teach us that we must overcome the need to be decisive.

if any religion doesn't want those who follow it's dogma to be clear of their own intention...i have a big problem with that line of thinking.

Right where?

what i highlighted in red

Get into heaven, the afterlife, find enlightenment, Valhalla, break the Dharmic cycle, etc. etc…

no that is not what a believer does...those are consequences...
i'm talking about, what moral act can a believer do that a non believer cannot....

As I have pointed out, people are naturally fearful of each other and change. Religion has the ability to bring people together, to overcome obstacles and resistance that simple human nature is not willing to do.

i disagree...education and knowledge will do that.

This is faith we are talking about, not science. There comes a point you have to go on your gut feeling. If it feels right (I am not talking about pleasurable, but right), then it probably is right.

i used to think that way, got me into trouble... assumptions are a dangerous thing

I am believing that you had some pretty bad experiences with religion and you are looking through the lens of your experience at all of religion. This is unfortunate.

i used to be on the inside looking out...now i'm on the outside looking in
my perspective is from hindsight now and now i can see the forrest for the trees...

If you want to see the good religion can and does do, then you have to shelve your limited, preconceived notions

i've been saying all along...
religion is just another excuse for good and or for bad...
religion isn't what makes the person...the person makes the religion

and try to see the world without the anger. Otherwise, you will always come up with the same conclusions.[/COLOR]

criticising and being skeptical isn't being angry...that is an assumption on your part...