Religion vs Believers

[Demonslayer]

For example, we all have/know good cases of very much peaceful religions with very much aggressive believers. Is it maybe the very nature of humans not to accept fully a peaceful way of life?

My opinion is that the "peaceful religions" are not as peaceful as you may believe they are.

Nearly every major religion has extended period of violence associated with it. Even in the absence of physical violence, most cause some sort of xenophobia or bigotry of some kind in many of their adherents, as most religions are set up in the ultimate "us vs. them" framework.

The supposition here in the OP is maybe this violence/hatred is not the religion's fault, maybe "the very nature of humans not to accept fully a peaceful way of life." But then why don't we see other parts of our lives causing such violence? You don't see people blowing each other up over sports rivalries or because they like a different type of music. You don't see guys who drive Ford trucks shooting guys who drive Chevy trucks. NASCAR fans don't murder people because they like Grand Prix racing.

But with religion this kind of thing happens regularly. So of course it's the fault of the religion itself, combined with the manner in which that religion is handed down/taught. Does this occur with every person? Of course not, not by a long shot and no one is saying that.

But think about it this way. If you take 100 children and raise them with lessons like "non-Christians go to hell" or "God says homosexuals are sinful abominations" or "America is the Great Satan trying to end our way of life"...how many of those 100 will grow up to believe these things? Is it 50? Is it 25? I don't know, but it's more than 0...which is the number of children who will grow up believing these things if they are never taught them in the first place.

 

[Demonslayer]

and Humanist values can drive violent behaviour too.

Examples?

 

[idav]

My opinion is that the "peaceful religions" are not as peaceful as you may believe they are.

Nearly every major religion has extended period of violence associated with it. Even in the absence of physical violence, most cause some sort of xenophobia or bigotry of some kind in many of their adherents, as most religions are set up in the ultimate "us vs. them" framework.

The supposition here in the OP is maybe this violence/hatred is not the religion's fault, maybe "the very nature of humans not to accept fully a peaceful way of life." But then why don't we see other parts of our lives causing such violence? You don't see people blowing each other up over sports rivalries or because they like a different type of music. You don't see guys who drive Ford trucks shooting guys who drive Chevy trucks. NASCAR fans don't murder people because they like Grand Prix racing.

But with religion this kind of thing happens regularly. So of course it's the fault of the religion itself, combined with the manner in which that religion is handed down/taught. Does this occur with every person? Of course not, not by a long shot and no one is saying that.

But think about it this way. If you take 100 children and raise them with lessons like "non-Christians go to hell" or "God says homosexuals are sinful abominations" or "America is the Great Satan trying to end our way of life"...how many of those 100 will grow up to believe these things? Is it 50? Is it 25? I don't know, but it's more than 0...which is the number of children who will grow up believing these things if they are never taught them in the first place.

Ok, but this is like saying humanity in general has been violent. Every philosophy is still spouted from an imperfect human. Any religion which essentially follows the same logic as the Jains isn't going to be very violent.

 

[Augustus]

Examples?

Liberal interventionism as explained in this linked document - The Euston Manifesto, and represented by the Iraq War, Libya, etc.

 

[Demonslayer]

Ok, but this is like saying humanity in general has been violent.

I mean, humanity has for sure been violent, and I'm not saying if there was no religion that humans would all be super peaceful and nice to each other. There is no silver bullet to end all human violence.

But let's take modern American Christians as an example, simply because I live in the US and this is what I'm most familiar with on a day to day basis. You've got hordes of Christians fighting to make sure gay people don't get equal rights. You've got Christian protesters standing on street corners with anti-gay signs, prominent Christian pastors making horrible statements about what we should be doing with gay people, and most Christian politicians...whether they really feel this way or not...have to come out as anti-gay in order to pander to the Christian majority.

It's fair to say that there is a strong anti-gay sentiment among modern American Christians. Step outside the Christian community and this sentiment drops to very nearly zero. You ask the Christians themselves why they are against gay people and they will tell you directly it's because of my religion.

How can we draw any other conclusion that adherence to the Christian faith is a major factor in anti-gay bigotry?

 

[idav]

I mean, humanity has for sure been violent, and I'm not saying if there was no religion that humans would all be super peaceful and nice to each other. There is no silver bullet to end all human violence.

But let's take modern American Christians as an example, simply because I live in the US and this is what I'm most familiar with on a day to day basis. You've got hordes of Christians fighting to make sure gay people don't get equal rights. You've got Christian protesters standing on street corners with anti-gay signs, prominent Christian pastors making horrible statements about what we should be doing with gay people, and most Christian politicians...whether they really feel this way or not...have to come out as anti-gay in order to pander to the Christian majority.

It's fair to say that there is a strong anti-gay sentiment among modern American Christians. Step outside the Christian community and this sentiment drops to very nearly zero. You ask the Christians themselves why they are against gay people and they will tell you directly it's because of my religion.

How can we draw any other conclusion that adherence to the Christian faith is a major factor in anti-gay bigotry?

The old testament and new testament certainly have a factor in anti-gay sentiment. Thing is Jesus never even said anything about such an important controversial issue. That was Pauls issue and what we have now are Paulians not Christians.
“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. - Gandhi”

 

[Quintessence]

How can we draw any other conclusion that adherence to the Christian faith is a major factor in anti-gay bigotry?

Probably by recognizing Christianity isn't a single religion, but a term that describes several thousand different traditions; then on top of that realizing that any group is composed of individuals, and individuals identifying within the same group are not the same. Common sense, I know, but it seems this needs stating now and again.

 

[Demonslayer]

Liberal interventionism as explained in this linked document - The Euston Manifesto, and represented by the Iraq War, Libya, etc.

If "liberal interventionism" or politics in general had anything whatsoever to do with Humanism, I might agree with you.

However they don't, so I don't. You do realize the vast majority of liberal American politicians identify as Christian right? Not Humanist.

 

[Demonslayer]

Thing is Jesus never even said anything about such an important controversial issue.

I couldn't agree with you more, you're 100% right.

Yet what we see among the Christian community today in America is undeniable, is it not?

 

[idav]

I couldn't agree with you more, you're 100% right.

Yet what we see among the Christian community today in America is undeniable, is it not?

Well as you mentioned the left are christians too. The "christians" are torn in half in the US.

 

[Demonslayer]

Probably by recognizing Christianity isn't a single religion, but a term that describes several thousand different traditions; then on top of that realizing that any group is composed of individuals, and individuals identifying within the same group are not the same. Common sense, I know, but it seems this needs stating now and again.

And yet in America today, across all of the thousands of various Christian denominations, anti-gay sentiment is somewhere around 40-50%. Outside of the Christian community, it is dang near zero.

Head over to the Muslim community and it shoots WAY back up again.

It's a pretty tough sell to say that anti-gay sentiment is not driven by religion.

 

[Demonslayer]

Well as you mentioned the left are christians too. The "christians" are torn in half in the US.

Indeed they are, and I'll go one step further and say that overall Christians seem to be coming around on this issue.

Each year fewer Christians report anti-gay sentiment and more and more Christians are accepting homosexual people. It's a slow success story even, I'll grant it.

Yet why so long? Why does the non-religious community have nearly zero bigotry against gay people, but the religious community is still very, very slowly letting go of it?

 

[Quintessence]

And yet in America today, across all of the thousands of various Christian denominations, anti-gay sentiment is somewhere around 40-50%. Outside of the Christian community, it is dang near zero.

Head over to the Muslim community and it shoots WAY back up again.

It's a pretty tough sell to say that anti-gay sentiment is not driven by religion.

I'm not saying that one's religion can't be a factor. I'm saying that it makes more sense to identify specific Christian denominations where the sentiment dominates rather than blanket project onto all of Christianity (or worse, all of religions).

 

[Demonslayer]

Well as you mentioned the left are christians too. The "christians" are torn in half in the US.

Let me be very, very clear. Most of my friends and family are Christians, and many of them don't have a bigoted bone in their bodies. In no way am I trying to paint a picture where 'all Christians" or "all religious people" are bigots or any of that. It's not true, I'm not trying to say it's true, and anyone who tries to say that is wrong.

What IS undeniably true is that 1) religious dogma and tradition are taught to children at a very young age when they are extremely susceptible to permanent imbedding of ideas and 2) religious teachings are the only teachings with such widespread anti-gay sentiment. It's not hard to see why we keep cranking out generation after generation of people who can't shake the anti-gay thing...it's directly due to their religious teachings and they will tell you such if you ask them.

 

[idav]

Indeed they are, and I'll go one step further and say that overall Christians seem to be coming around on this issue.

Each year fewer Christians report anti-gay sentiment and more and more Christians are accepting homosexual people. It's a slow success story even, I'll grant it.

Yet why so long? Why does the non-religious community have nearly zero bigotry against gay people, but the religious community is still very, very slowly letting go of it?

It has a lot to do with how this culture views sexuality and gender differences in general. We certainly aren't France, we are sexualy promiscous while trying to be puritan. On top of that guys have to be macho, and play hardcore sports and shoot guns.

 

[Demonslayer]

I'm not saying that one's religion can't be a factor. I'm saying that it makes more sense to identify specific Christian denominations where the sentiment dominates rather than blanket project onto all of Christianity (or worse, all of religions).

I wonder what other factors are teaching people to be hard on gay people? The only teachings I know that make such statements are religious teachings.

I would be happy to identify the most bigoted denominations vs. the least, but I don't think that makes a lot of difference because they all draw from the same Bible. Sure, perhaps more Baptist parents are teaching their kids anti-gay lessons, vs. Catholics or Lutherans, but they all draw from the same dogma which...unfortunately...has anti-gay sentiment build in, and as a direct command from God no less.

I mean the Bible Belt is the easiest target, but they follow the same holy book as the relatively less bigoted areas of the country. I still say the genesis of the bigotry is the religion itself, and good on the parents who decide not to carry on the bad parts of the dogma, whichever denomination they follow.

 

[LuisDantas]

He is representative of a particular group within, for want of better words, the 'Humanist sphere' (example) just like bin Laden was representative of a particular group within Sunni Islam. Neither represent the majority of the larger group to which they belong, but they do represent a sub-group.

I don't think I agree. But if I did, that would only emphasize the importance and need for independent thinking and the existence of means of questioning tradition and presumed authority.

 

[Demonslayer]

It has a lot to do with how this culture views sexuality and gender differences in general. We certainly aren't France, we are sexualy promiscous while trying to be puritan. On top of that guys have to be macho, and play hardcore sports and shoot guns

Perhaps this describes the difference between modern American culture and culture elsewhere on the planet. And certainly you hit on a point I agree with, that culture is a factor, separate (but often intertwined) with religion.

This still doesn't explain, however, the difference within our national culture between the religious and non-religious attitudes. The macho extreme sports types (of which I am one) are still far, far more likely to be anti-gay if they are religious than if they are not.

 

[Demonslayer]

Did I win the thread?

 

[Nefelie]

We are the only species on earth to kill for excessive power, excessive wealth, lust, greed, jealousy etc. Yes, we are a violent bloody animals. I don't think you will ever find any believers in tune with the religion or philosophy. Mostly you will find those who twist the teaching to suit their human agenda. of power, wealth, lust, jealousy etc.

And yet, as Idav so nicely said:

Every philosophy is still spouted from an imperfect human.

We (humans) are the creators of such amazing peaceful philosophies... only to twist and destroy them? That is weird, isn’t it?

~~~

What the original scriptures might have been is a bit of a debate.

True. But I think the basics remain the same: don’t kill, be nice, help each other.

Aside from that most people don't really know enough about their own religions, its a learning process, but if the religion says don't question then nothing new will stick.

This is also true. But still: the basics remain and they are not so hard to understand. Are they?

~~~

1=All revealed religions remain in harmony with followers in those religions' nascent times.

Not true.

For example, in Christianity Paul and Peter had serious disagreements and arguments from day one.

Another example: Luther was still alive when disagreements arisen within his movement. Made him really mad too.

And I don’t think I should mention Sufism to you, do I?

According to my belief, Islam as true faith was to stay, In each century Reformers were sent [called Mujadedeen] in various area, who kept the true torch of faith alive amidst weaknesses. In current latter days [1000 years], when weakness rose to astronomical order, a grand promised reformer in Islam with titles Promised Messiah Mahdi [the founder of Ahmadiyya Muslim community] has come to reform practices back to true creed.

And yet Islam remains very much divided as we speak. Is it not?

~~~

My opinion is that the "peaceful religions" are not as peaceful as you may believe they are. Nearly every major religion has extended period of violence associated with it. […] So of course it's the fault of the religion itself, combined with the manner in which that religion is handed down/taught.

I’m confused…

Let’s say for instance (which is historically correct, but anyway…) that the religion’s teaching is to “turn the other cheek” and then the archbishop of that religion comes out and says: “kill everyone in the name of god”… How is the religion’s fault ?

But think about it this way. If you take 100 children and raise them with lessons like "non-Christians go to hell" or "God says homosexuals are sinful abominations" or "America is the Great Satan trying to end our way of life"...how many of those 100 will grow up to believe these things? Is it 50? Is it 25? I don't know, but it's more than 0...which is the number of children who will grow up believing these things if they are never taught them in the first place.

That’s true, but isn’t the childrens’ duty, when they grow up, to read their religion’s scriptures and understand what the true teachings are?

Like Idav correctly said:

Thing is Jesus never even said anything about such an important controversial issue.

Isn’t a Christian’s duty to find that out at some point?

~~~

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. - Gandhi”

I’m told that Gandhi also said: “I would be a Christian if Christians remained Christians all 24 hours of the day!”

Hahaha… I found it amusing

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