Religion vs Believers

[Augustus]

If "liberal interventionism" or politics in general had anything whatsoever to do with Humanism, I might agree with you. However they don't, so I don't.

Humanism is an ideology/system of values. Values drive behaviour and are inherently political as your politics is based on your values. For some people, their Humanist values drive a liberal interventionist ideology. They will even tell you this themselves (see C. Hitchens et al).

Humanist anti-theists criticise religions for promoting negative values leading to harmful behaviour, yet they absolutely refuse to believe that their belief system could ever lead to harmful actions in some people who share it (and who are not necessarily representative of the entire Humanist community). This is a bit like a Christian saying Jesus was a man of peace so Christianity can't possibly be violent.

Numerous people on here (not necessarily you) have argued that
a) atheism cannot possibly have any effect on any other beliefs
b) the application of 'science and reason' can't possibly lead to negative outcomes
c) and now Humanistic values can never lead to harmful behaviour

However they also believe it is perfectly possible to blame 'religion', 'Christianity', 'Islam', etc. for any behaviour carried out by their adherents and that all of their co-religionists are responsible to some extent as they believe in the same book.

This illustrates a lack of scepticism coupled with the desire to retain a gateau whilst also enjoying its consumption.

You do realize the vast majority of liberal American politicians identify as Christian right? Not Humanist.

So?

I'm not talking about most American politicians, but any Humanists who share a liberal interventionist ideology. (not Humanism in general)

 

[Demonslayer]

So?

I'm not talking about most American politicians, but any Humanists who share a liberal interventionist ideology. (not Humanism in general)

The point is you're trying to connect "liberal interventionist ideology" with Humanism, which is not correct.

My point is:

1) there is zero link between the tenets of Humanism and "liberal interventionist ideology" and:
2) there are far more Christians involved in "liberal interventionist ideology" than they are Humanists

Thus, the link you're trying to make is a stretch of major proportions.

 

[idav]

This still doesn't explain, however, the difference within our national culture between the religious and non-religious attitudes. The macho extreme sports types (of which I am one) are still far, far more likely to be anti-gay if they are religious than if they are not.

The whole gender discrimination thing is tied to religion as well so when one goes so does the other, which makes the issue harder to deal with when people have issues with discrimination based on sexual orientation.

I have talked with very reasonable people that can't get passed the fact of what the bible says about the same sex issue.

 

[Augustus]

The point is you're trying to connect "liberal interventionist ideology" with Humanism, which is not correct.

My point is:

1) there is zero link between the tenets of Humanism and "liberal interventionist ideology" and:

Do you believe values drive behaviour?
Do you believe that most of the values in the Euston Manifesto could be described as Humanist?

2) there are far more Christians involved in "liberal interventionist ideology" than they are Humanists

Thus, the link you're trying to make is a stretch of major proportions.

It doesn't matter how many Christians are also liberal interventionists, it only matters that some are Humanists.

Humanist values can lead to support for liberal interventionism in some people - Yes or No?

If the answer is yes, then we agree. If the answer is no then what do you base this on?

 

[Demonslayer]

Do you believe values drive behaviour?

Sometimes, not always. Other factors such as circumstance, mental health and environment play a big part. There is very often a large disconnect between values and behavior. For example in America, atheists have a lower divorce rate than Christians, despite Christian values being strongly against divorce.

Do you believe that most of the values in the Euston Manifesto could be described as Humanist?

I have no idea.

It doesn't matter how many Christians are also liberal interventionists, it only matters that some are Humanists.

It certainly does if you're trying to like Humanism with liberal interventionism. If you have 100 liberal interventionists and 70 of them are Christian while 10 are Humanist, I can't see how you could possibly make the link you're trying to make.

Humanist values can lead to support for liberal interventionism in some people - Yes or No?

No, unless I'm missing something. Provide me with the specific "humanist value" that leads to support for liberal interventionism and I'll give you my thoughts. Maybe I'm not thinking about it correctly.

In other words you can very specifically link things like anti-gay sentiment and Christian values. This is because there are direct passages in the Bible where God specifically is against homosexuality. There is a direct link. Is there such a direct link between Humanist values and "liberal interventionism" that you can give me?

I'm not saying there isn't, perhaps there is, I'm just not aware of any. I don't identify as a Humanist so I'm not fully up on the Humanist value system.

 

[Augustus]

It certainly does if you're trying to like Humanism with liberal interventionism. If you have 100 liberal interventionists and 70 of them are Christian while 10 are Humanist, I can't see how you could possibly make the link you're trying to make.

I think you think I'm making a different point.

When I'm talking how values drive an individual's behaviour, the values of unrelated people are not relevant to my discussion even if they share similar goals.

Some people steal because they have a compulsion to do so, rather than any actual desire for the thing they are stealing. Just because most thieves steal for different reasons doesn't mean it's not relevant to identify the factors that specifically drive kleptomaniacs to steal

No, unless I'm missing something. Provide me with the specific "humanist value" that leads to support for liberal interventionism and I'll give you my thoughts. Maybe I'm not thinking about it correctly.

In other words you can very specifically link things like anti-gay sentiment and Christian values. This is because there are direct passages in the Bible where God specifically is against homosexuality. There is a direct link. Is there such a direct link between Humanist values and "liberal interventionism" that you can give me?

I'm not saying there isn't, perhaps there is, I'm just not aware of any. I don't identify as a Humanist so I'm not fully up on the Humanist value system.

Humanist believe their values are universal and value secularism, equality, Westernised human rights, liberal democracy and individual liberty. In some people, this idea can lead to the belief that 'good' countries should use their military power to remove the worst offenders against these values

"We stand for an internationalist politics and the reform of international law — in the interests of global democratization and global development. Humanitarian intervention, when necessary, is not a matter of disregarding sovereignty, but of lodging this properly within the "common life" of all peoples. If in some minimal sense a state protects the common life of its people (if it does not torture, murder and slaughter its own civilians, and meets their most basic needs of life), then its sovereignty is to be respected. But if the state itself violates this common life in appalling ways, its claim to sovereignty is forfeited and there is a duty upon the international community of intervention and rescue. Once a threshold of inhumanity has been crossed, there is a "responsibility to protect".

To some extent, this view rest upon a belief in the universalism of their value system. Looking at Iraq realistically would have lead people to realise that enough people in that country didn't share the values of secularism, equality, Westernised human rights, liberal democracy and individual liberty to result in these values appearing in a 'liberated' Iraq.

Just because you value secularism, equality, Westernised human rights, liberal democracy and individual liberty, doesn't mean you support LI, and just because you support LI doesn't mean you are a Humanist. However, among Humanists who support LI, these values are essential to justify the actions.