Religion without faith

[Rainbow Mage]

This isn't necessarily true. Atheists Buddhists, within the Mahayana tradition at least, would disagree. Reincarnation is part of the doctrine of samsara, although most Buddhists would call it rebirth. And the higher planes, as well as the lower ones, are part of the Abhidhamma, accepted by all branches of Buddhism. I'm not sure how you got to where you believe atheistic Buddhists would reject these ideas.

I have met many Atheistic Buddhists who reject the idea of higher planes especially. Also for an Atheist Buddhist to accept the existence of higher planes, do any entities live on these planes? If so, what are these entities?

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

I have met many Atheistic Buddhists who reject the idea of higher planes especially. Also for an Atheist Buddhist to accept the existence of higher planes, do any entities live on these planes? If so, what are these entities?

I've never known of any atheistic Buddhist to reject the higher planes, but then again, I don't know them all. But, that is where, according to my understanding, where the bodhisattvas reside. And not just the bodhisattvas, but other beings as well. Take Maitreya Buddha. He resides in the Tu****a heaven. And this is only one example. Amitabha's Pure Land would probably be considered on one of the higher planes.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

I've never known of any atheistic Buddhist to reject the higher planes, but then again, I don't know them all. But, that is where, according to my understanding, where the bodhisattvas reside. And not just the bodhisattvas, but other beings as well. Take Maitreya Buddha. He resides in the Tu****a heaven. And this is only one example. Amitabha's Pure Land would probably be considered on one of the higher planes.

Well one has to ask Matt. This is what has always confused me about claiming to be an Atheistic Buddhist. As you just said, most Buddhists typically believe in the golden land of the Bodhisattvas and devas. If one believes in Bodhisattvas, devas, and ancestors, how does that make them an Atheist? An Atheist generally would not believe in these things.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Well one has to ask Matt. This is what has always confused me about claiming to be an Atheistic Buddhist. As you just said, most Buddhists typically believe in the golden land of the Bodhisattvas and devas. If one believes in Bodhisattvas, devas, and ancestors, how does that make them an Atheist? An Atheist generally would not believe in these things.

I think because of a difference of understanding about the meaning of the world 'atheist'. I think by atheist, at least for me, means that there is no one high creator god, who is personal and takes an active interest in each person's lives, who deals out judgments and rewards. To me, the bodhisattvas and such don't fit this mold. They are simply sentient beings who have achieved a higher state of perfection than us still here in this realm.

 

[Madhuri]

:yes: because if the truth is subjective then the truth isn't a fact from global scope. Then it will be generally viewed as faith.

I tend to see truth as something Absolute and Infinite. Individual people perceive it differently because of our own inherent personal differences. But while I believe that we retain these inherent differences upon being liberated from material existence, I believe that we see reality exactly for what it is. What remains unique is our relationship with the absolute, not our understanding of it.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

I think because of a difference of understanding about the meaning of the world 'atheist'. I think by atheist, at least for me, means that there is no one high creator god, who is personal and takes an active interest in each person's lives, who deals out judgments and rewards. To me, the bodhisattvas and such don't fit this mold. They are simply sentient beings who have achieved a higher state of perfection than us still here in this realm.

Yes understood, but I'm still not sure I see this as an Atheist. Do you deny though that Buddhists have traditionally for centuries believed that these Bodhisattvas can intercede for people by merrits, etc?

 

[Herman Tripleton]

What the atheist is incapable of understanding is that for the theist, their religion has already been proven to them to be clearly true.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Yes understood, but I'm still not sure I see this as an Atheist. Do you deny though that Buddhists have traditionally for centuries believed that these Bodhisattvas can intercede for people by merrits, etc?

No, I don't deny this at all. This is actually the basis for the Pure Land school. Merits can be transferred. But the idea of the bodhisattvas is different than the concept of the monotheistic god, or even the pagan gods, of western religion. The Buddha never denied the existence of the Hindu gods, what he taught is that they are simply beings in a higher realm than us, and are still subject to the same laws of karma and samsara that we are.

 

[Madhuri]

What the atheist is incapable of understanding is that for the theist, their religion has already been proven to them to be clearly true.

I disagree. That feeling of certainly is an illusion without knowledge. Faith is not knowledge. So many people start out with this incredible belief and one day realise that it was all an illusion. Hence why so many people of 'faith' get freaked out on their death bed.
IMO only knowledge is without this illusion.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

No, I don't deny this at all. This is actually the basis for the Pure Land school. Merits can be transferred. But the idea of the bodhisattvas is different than the concept of the monotheistic god, or even the pagan gods, of western religion. The Buddha never denied the existence of the Hindu gods, what he taught is that they are simply beings in a higher realm than us, and are still subject to the same laws of karma and samsara that we are.

Right and even no Theistic Buddhist disagrees with this, that all gods are bound by conditions. There is no omni creator god. I would find Buddhism and a Abrahamic belief system extremely hard to mesh together. There have always been Buddhists who worship the devas (Ganesha, Tara, Shiva, etc.) and none of them believe they are all powerful creators. I also do not believe this about any of my gods, and I don't know many Kemetics who do.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Right and even no Theistic Buddhist disagrees with this, that all gods are bound by conditions. There is no omni creator god. I would find Buddhism and a Abrahamic belief system extremely hard to mesh together. There have always been Buddhists who worship the devas (Ganesha, Tara, Shiva, etc.) and none of them believe they are all powerful creators. I also do not believe this about any of my gods, and I don't know many Kemetics who do.

Which is why Buddhism works so well with pagan religions. Because, taken what the Buddha taught about the gods, reminds of the actions of the Greek pantheon. Maybe our difference doesn't like in any doctrinal difference, but simply a misunderstanding of semantics. I'm starting to see more and more harmony between your view and my view that in previous discussions with you I hadn't seen, until we began this conversation and clarified our views.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Matt I'm glad Now what confuses me is those who do try to mesh Buddhism with an Abrahamic path. Example: Buddhist Jew or Buddhist Christian. I'd see them incompatiable

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Matt I'm glad Now what confuses me is those who do try to mesh Buddhism with an Abrahamic path. Example: Buddhist Jew or Buddhist Christian. I'd see them incompatiable

I tried at one time, viewing Jesus as a bodhisattva. But that didn't last very long, as the idea made less and less sense. Of course, part of the reason why I had tried doing this, is because I wanted to practice Buddhism, and yet hold onto my Christianity, for the sake of trying to work things out with my ex-wife, who, at that time, was a Christian, or at least professed to be, and didn't want to be with someone of another religion.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Jesus might have been a Bodhisattva, but not as Christianity views Jesus. I don't think the Christian view of Jesus is correct anyway.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Nor do I.

 

[Herman Tripleton]

I disagree. That feeling of certainly is an illusion without knowledge. Faith is not knowledge. So many people start out with this incredible belief and one day realise that it was all an illusion. Hence why so many people of 'faith' get freaked out on their death bed.
IMO only knowledge is without this illusion.

I know, you cannot understand. Because you have not yet accepted the truth that all things are created and that no thing can create itself. I assure you, it is no illusion. It is truth, pure and simple, as all truth is.

 

[SLAMH]

What remains unique is our relationship with the absolute, not our understanding of it.

Sorry, but I don't get this part.

 

[SLAMH]

What the atheist is incapable of understanding is that for the theist, their religion has already been proven to them to be clearly true.

Then your truth is subjective, but not objective. There is something to put into your mind that atheist's fact or what they assume to be facts has already been proven to them. The thing that we have to know is the objective truth not the subjective, and to be able to prove it to anyone. Until now, I consider whatever I believe in a subjective matter that I should be able to prove it to anyone. When I achieve this then I can say that I believe in facts, not faith.

 

[Herman Tripleton]

Then your truth is subjective, but not objective. There is something to put into your mind that atheist's fact or what they assume to be facts has already been proven to them. The thing that we have to know is the objective truth not the subjective, and to be able to prove it to anyone. Until now, I consider whatever I believe in a subjective matter that I should be able to prove it to anyone. When I achieve this then I can say that I believe in facts, not faith.

Whether or not use wish to believe an axiom is up to you. But truth is truth whether you choose to accept it or not.

I assume you do not believe in the theory of the big bang or evolution either since neither are provable? What is your take on the higgs boson?
Where do you draw the line on what you have faith in?

 

[Madhuri]

I know, you cannot understand. Because you have not yet accepted the truth that all things are created and that no thing can create itself. I assure you, it is no illusion. It is truth, pure and simple, as all truth is.

There's no need to preach to me, I am a theist. But I'm an experienced theist who knows the difference between faith and knowledge.