Religions actively employ the cycle of abuse.

[infrabenji]

I’m surprised to see what looks like a lot of obfuscation. If this wasn’t a public place where people could be hurt any number of ways by the sensitive nature of the material it would be easy to just simply state the types of abuse and what religious individuals and groups either condone or commit them. What we should be focusing on is how to identify and combat the abuse and how to help others who are being abused extricate themselves. We all know that abusers exist in both religious and non religious groups. The purpose of my argument here is to shed light on specific religious practices that seem innocuous but in some cases, too many imo, condition a person to accept abuse and keep them willfully and unknowingly in the cycle.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I’m surprised to see what looks like a lot of obfuscation. If this wasn’t a public place where people could be hurt any number of ways by the sensitive nature of the material it would be easy to just simply state the types of abuse and what religious individuals and groups either condone or commit them. What we should be focusing on is how to identify and combat the abuse and how to help others who are being abused extricate themselves. We all know that abusers exist in both religious and non religious groups. The purpose of my argument here is to shed light on specific religious practices that seem innocuous but in some cases, too many imo, condition a person to accept abuse and keep them willfully and unknowingly in the cycle.

Yeah, now wonder why we objective to a claim that starts with "I’m surprised to see...".

You don't recognize that your framing is subjective and evolves you in the end treating religion as a special negative. You can't see that, right?

 

[infrabenji]

What is religion?

Don’t obfuscate lol. This is a real problem with real world solutions. I’m sure many religious people here will say not my religion or not the practitioners of my faith or abusers are also found in non religious contexts. But we all know, whether we admit it or not, that specific examples of abuse by individuals within different religious organizations can be demonstrated with a quick google search. You know the point I’m trying to make is that indoctrination and unquestioning loyalty are tools used by abusers in religion to get people to unknowingly participate in abuse. Some will even claim they are not abused even after it has been demonstrated. Denial is a powerful tool instilled in the victim through the same process required for unconditional and unquestioning loyalty is my guess. Weigh in here. How do you think abusers within religious groups condition others to accept and participate in abuse? Is it as I stated through indoctrination ect. or are there different methods that are more applicable? It certainly happens and is happening probably as we speak. How can we help others identify the abuse and extricate themselves? Isn’t that really the goal.

 

[infrabenji]

Yeah, now wonder why we objective to a claim that starts with "I’m surprised to see...".

You don't recognize that your framing is subjective and evolves you in the end treating religion as a special negative. You can't see that, right?

I don’t see how this moves the conversation forward or helps anyone as is my goal. If you think you can help me clarify a point or make the conversation more sound please do.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Don’t obfuscate lol. This is a real problem with real world solutions. I’m sure many religious people here will say not my religion or not the practitioners of my faith or abusers are also found in non religious contexts. But we all know, whether we admit it or not, that specific examples of abuse by individuals within different religious organizations can be demonstrated with a quick google search. You know the point I’m trying to make is that indoctrination and unquestioning loyalty are tools used by abusers in religion to get people to unknowingly participate in abuse. Some will even claim they are not abused even after it has been demonstrated. Denial is a powerful tool instilled in the victim through the same process required for unconditional and unquestioning loyalty is my guess. Weigh in here. How do you think abusers within religious groups condition others to accept and participate in abuse? Is it as I stated through indoctrination ect. or are there different methods that are more applicable? It certainly happens and is happening probably as we speak. How can we help others identify the abuse and extricate themselves? Isn’t that really the goal.

There is no real world. Real has no objective referent. Real is not different than God. It is an idea in the mind of some humans.
In effect I suspect that is possible that you can't understand your own personal culture as just another variation of human behavior.

 

[infrabenji]

I don’t see how this moves the conversation forward or helps anyone as is my goal. If you think you can help me clarify a point or make the conversation more sound please do. Also you’re right I’m not familiar with “special negative”. If you mean I am calling out religious groups specifically then yes you are right. I am.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I don’t see how this moves the conversation forward or helps anyone as is my goal. If you think you can help me clarify a point or make the conversation more sound please do.

We don't share the same goal.
At a very fundamental level you think if we removed religion the world would be better. It might be, but that depends on a lot of factors, including what it is, you are trying to stop humans from doing and how you intended to do that.
And before we are sure we got it right with as much objectivity as possible with what religion is, we can't be sure that we got it right.

So start educating yourself about what religion is with as many different views without taking your own for granted.

 

[infrabenji]

There is no real world. Real has no objective referent. Real is not different than God. It is an idea in the mind of some humans.
In effect I suspect that is possible that you can't understand your own personal culture as just another variation of human behavior.

Philosophical as always. Even when moving the conversation forward could potentially help someone you talk about philosophical ideas that effectively add nothing but your own definitions to terms totally arbitrary to what the purpose of the thread is. What’s going on bud? If I struck a nerve with this topic I apologize. It’s not an easy topic for anyone to talk about. I hope you can contribute something more substantive than philosophical jargon.

edit: I just saw your post. I’ll address it and ask you some additional questions in a bit. I just don’t want the thread to change directions quite yet. Don’t worry soon enough we’ll get sidetracked and probably be talking about evolution vs. creationism or something in this thread.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Philosophical as always. Even when moving the conversation forward could potentially help someone you talk about philosophical ideas that effectively add nothing but your own definitions to terms totally arbitrary to what the purpose of the thread is. What’s going on bud? If I struck a nerve with this topic I apologize. It’s not an easy topic for anyone to talk about. I hope you can contribute something more substantive than philosophical jargon. At least answer one of my previous questions as I would for you.

Your definition of religion is in effect as arbitrary as mine, because there is no strong objective standard for what makes religion religion.

So here is what I have learned to do. You and I both take the meaning of words for granted. I have learned to check different ways of doing that and compare them. That is not philosophy, that is intellectual honesty. Be honest about your own assumptions and check them.

 

[infrabenji]

Your definition of religion is in effect as arbitrary as mine, because there is no strong objective standard for what makes religion religion.

So here is what I have learned to do. You and I both take the meaning of words for granted. I have learned to check different ways of doing that and compare them. That is not philosophy, that is intellectual honesty. Be honest about your own assumptions and check them.

I’ve only defined religion in its most broadest sense. This is done intentionally. But let me ask, if we’re being honest, Is catholic a religious group?

edit: also if we don’t share the same goal on this thread what are you doing here? Is your purpose to derail the conversation? You haven’t addressed any of the actual material. I was hoping you’d weigh in and provide context to people who had questions or arguments not totally derail the conversation with “nothing is real” or “what is religion”. Again, a real world issue with real world consequences for people and you say something like what is real? If I ever see you broken down on the side of the road I’ll be sure to yell what is real out the window as I drive by.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I’ve only defined religion in its most broadest sense. This is done intentionally. But let me ask, if we’re being honest, Is catholic a religious group?

Stop looking at current limited Western culture and go as broad as possible.
Start here and then using active critical thinking for the first part down to "... the religious life."
religion | Definition, Types, List of Religions, Symbols, Examples, & Facts
Then if you have the time consider this:
"Religion is a social-cultural system of designated behaviors and practices, morals, beliefs, worldviews, texts, sanctified places, prophecies, ethics, or organizations, that relates humanity to supernatural, transcendental, and spiritual elements;[1] however, there is no scholarly consensus over what precisely constitutes a religion.[2][3] ..." Wiki.
Now if you then look closer there are some versions that doesn't require supernatural, transcendental, and spiritual elements in the standard sense.

So what is religion in the broadest sense possible? Well, it is a form of human behavior regarding what fundamentally matters, is real and how to make sense of it including subjective evaluation.

In that sense even I am religious and fit in, even though I am an atheist, secular and humanist.

 

[Viker]

I believe religious people frequently employ the cycle of abuse as a method for indoctrination and inculcating unquestioning devotion. I feel there is a strong parallel between indoctrination and the cycle of abuse. I have confidence that this practice causes emotional, physical, and psychological damage to the victim. I believe the abuse manifests in different forms such as identity loss, guilt syndrome, stygiophobia, death anxiety, sexual repression, compulsivity, self blame, and more. I believe victims often, actively and unknowingly, participate in their own abuse. I also believe these abuses have deleterious long term impacts for the victim and can be correlated to higher levels of depression, anxiety, self deception, denial, somatic concerns, dissociative patterns, etc. Do you agree or disagree that this can be the case? I’d like to hear your thoughts. Thanks in advance for everyone’s insight.

Edit: The generalization is intentional as I perceive it may be a sensitive subject for many religious people. I don’t want to isolate anyone or make any one group feel singled out.

I've seen the results of such here in Kentucky. We have "traditional" religious groups that border on being cults or may be considered full on cults. But the abuses and excesses can show up even in more mainstream religious groups.

 

[infrabenji]

Stop looking at current limited Western culture and go as broad as possible.
Start here and then using active critical thinking for the first part down to "... the religious life."
religion | Definition, Types, List of Religions, Symbols, Examples, & Facts
Then if you have the time consider this:
"Religion is a social-cultural system of designated behaviors and practices, morals, beliefs, worldviews, texts, sanctified places, prophecies, ethics, or organizations, that relates humanity to supernatural, transcendental, and spiritual elements;[1] however, there is no scholarly consensus over what precisely constitutes a religion.[2][3] ..." Wiki.
Now if you then look closer there are some versions that doesn't require supernatural, transcendental, and spiritual elements in the standard sense.

So what is religion in the broadest sense possible? Well, it is a form of human behavior regarding what fundamentally matters, is real and how to make sense of it including subjective evaluation.

In that sense even I am religious and fit in, even though I am an atheist, secular and humanist.

I totally get that. Great, we both have the same definition for religion. We already did. We’ve had this conversation before and have already agreed. How does this answer any questions I’ve posed to people on this thread? Or address the thesis of my original post? I was really hoping to hear the opinions and concerns from many different religious adherents on a topic that could be intrinsically hard for them to address. But let’s hear what another atheist has to say.

 

[infrabenji]

I've seen the results of such here in Kentucky. We have "traditional" religious groups that border on being cults or may be considered full on cults. But the abuses and excesses can show up even in more mainstream religious groups.

Thank you for that. I agree. Do you think people weaponize beliefs so to say as a tool to inflict harm intentionally or unintentionally? Another person stated something similar and I’m curious to get your opinion.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I totally get that. Great, we both have the same definition for religion. We already did. We’ve had this conversation before and have already agreed. How does this answer any questions I’ve posed to people on this thread? Or address the thesis of my original post? I was really hoping to hear the opinions and concerns from many different religious adherents on a topic that could be intrinsically hard for them to address. But let’s hear what another atheist has to say.

Because if religion is an organized from of human behavior, so it is society at large and thus what you are claim, is something that is not unique to religion, but rather common among all human interaction.

Your question is in effect: How do we get humans to behave better?

 

[Viker]

Thank you for that. I agree. Do you think people weaponize beliefs so to say as a tool to inflict harm intentionally or unintentionally? Another person stated something similar and I’m curious to get your opinion.

It's generally unintentional. There may be a few groups using these tactics simply for exploitive self gains. Most are genuine.

 

[infrabenji]

Because if religion is an organized from of human behavior, so it is society at large and thus what you are claim, is something that is not unique to religion, but rather common among all human interaction.

Your question is in effect: How do we get humans to behave better?

Omg. We’ve already addressed that abusers exist irrespective of religion or one’s definition of religion. That doesn’t change the fact something like 30 dioceses have declared bankruptcy as a result of paying restitution to victims of abuse by members of the church. Do you really think your definition is meaningful to those victims or offers them anything substantive? I’d really wished you’d put on your psychologist hat and contribute to the topic of the conversation. But I fear the thread has been totally derailed and anyone who had interest in discussing such a current issue is long gone. Maybe later it’ll pick up steam. Religious people aren’t exactly known for addressing abuse within their respective organizations. Catholic or otherwise. Sorry I lost my temper a little bit but I’m trying to have a genuine conversation about a relatively specific topic with religious people. We can talk anytime about anything especially if you think it will improve my understanding of reality. But there’s a time and place bud.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Edit: The generalization is intentional as I perceive it may be a sensitive subject for many religious people. I don’t want to isolate anyone or make any one group feel singled out.

I've no problem isolating groups.

This is a problem seen in religions with a strict doctrine. It's why I'm very against doctrines, as a religious person. Christianity, Islam, Wicca... Various cults therein. Any religion that has a list of "Thou Shalt"s has more red flags than white.

 

[infrabenji]

It's generally unintentional. There may be a few groups using these tactics simply for exploitive self gains. Most are genuine.

That interesting and I’m inclined to agree. Do you think indoctrination is fundamentally designed to make a person accept the truth value of claims at face value? Or is it inherently harmless unless used by someone with ulterior motives? I’m not sure myself.

 

[infrabenji]

I've no problem isolating groups.

This is a problem seen in religions with a strict doctrine. It's why I'm very against doctrines, as a religious person. Christianity, Islam, Wicca... Various cults therein. Any religion that has a list of "Thou Shalt"s has more red flags than white.

That’s well said. I’m definitely borrowing that last line lol. I wasn’t sure initially how the thread would be received and I didn’t want anyone to feel targeted personally especially if they’re a victim of abuse. But I agree, I personally have no problem with isolating groups and now that I think about it maybe I should have just given specific verifiable examples of abuse by their religious organizations to jumpstart a dialogue with religious people. Maybe it’ll pick up. Who knows.