Tomef
Well-Known Member
It sounds like that to you because that’s what you’re thinking of.
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Religion's Future or Lack of it
- Thread starter Madsaac
- Start date
Tomef
Well-Known Member
A set of rules for a community, with an enforcing authority.
RestlessSoul
Well-Known Member
It’s anecdotal evidence, so perhaps you’d like to share the anecdote? Where you once a YEC?
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
Then a secular constitution is a religion in a sense. Is that correct?
Madsaac
Active Member
I am no statistician but looking from a far, the western world seems to be more at ‘peace’ compared to the past.
And would you agree the list of reasons as to the decline of religion in the OP are a reflection of the increased tolerance and acceptance we have for one another?
Question - Would you prefer to live outside the west? Australia or Denmark for me.
Tomef
Well-Known Member
No moral relativism, morality isn’t synonymous with meaning. I mean our meanings are our own, formed out of our experiences, influences and so on. My life has meaning for me, the things I do have meaning. That meaning is self created, I mean it’s the end result of the sum of the various things and people that have influenced me. Sure, it’s relative in the sense that someone else would find their particular way of living meaningful for them too. Cognitively the relative experience of meaning is universal. Morality is the same for humans as it is for dogs, i.e. a feature of evolution. Only our relatively higher level of self-consciousness adds more variation.
Augustus
…
Yet the “new ways of thought” are blighted by the same problems.
We evolved as irrational, violent, tribal animals.
There is no saving us from ourselves.
The idea we can be saved is just residual Christianity.
All the worst ideas and ideologies in history have developed from people being open and adaptable (until they think they have discovered the truth).
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
Yeah, we disagree on morality and its connection to evolution, but that is outside this thread.
Most progress narratives I have encountered seem to me too narrow in their historical focus and scope. Even if one grants the already contentious assertion that humanity as a whole has been on an upward trajectory of tolerance, peace, reason, etc., since the Enlightenment, I don't think that says much about the overall dispositions of the species. The Enlightenment was a few centuries ago, which is a drop in the ocean relative to the duration of human history. One might as well use the same logic to suggest that a pleasant day is an indication that a whole year is prosperous and happy.
Instead of threatening each other with pikes, spears, and catapults, empires and hegemons now threaten each other with nukes and other products of the supposed progress of humanity. I think that's just one example among many of how humanity has fundamentally been more or less the same in terms of its nature, heuristics, and overall attitudes.
Tomef
Well-Known Member
You could define it that way if you want, if you consider the secular authority to have the same omnipresent enforcing ability as an imaginary god. Whether it’s ‘correct' or not is a different matter, this is a general discussion forum, I’m not really interested in a long-winded discussion of all possible permutations.
I can give you my view in a few sentences, with the caveat that I am not aiming at a word perfect, all-inclusive, ultimate definition, and so it should not be taken as such.
- The earliest societies formed around how to get stuff and stay safe. Being humans, and conscious, directions to the nearest water source became stories, feelings about taking the life of other creatures (and I imagine wondering about the wind, the weather, the movement of water and who knows what else) led to beliefs in spirits, and these societies formed their own lore and particular sets of beliefs. Mostly, these are pretty similar. The rules societies adopt, mostly (of course with humans you have aberrations) are geared towards what is beneficial for the group, in terms of wellbeing, fecundity, prestige (or whatever). Ideas of gods have changed as societies changed, monotheism seems to be pretty closely linked to the development of empires and the need for a central authority, so you could link that to a secular constitution. But a secular constitution may not recognise the existence of any gods or spirits at all, in which case it would require much more direct involvement of its citizens, there being no omnipresent spirit to act as a guide to thought and action. So in that sense, it would be different, but the principle is the same.
Tomef
Well-Known Member
That’s exactly the point, acceptance of the reality that there is no ultimate truth to discover has never been so widespread as in the post post modern world.
an anarchist
Your local anarchist.
Are you implying that it is wrong or unfortunate that society allowed @Altfish to think for himself and decide religion was not for him?
What do you mean @mikkel_the_dane ?
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
It was about the connection between science and religion and if there are other factors at play than just science in the decline of religion.
an anarchist
Your local anarchist.
When did religion begin? I don't think this question has a definitive answer.
But it's been with us for a long time. At least since the dawn of recorded history, where a High Priest was the ruler of the first cities to exist in the world (Mesopotamia). Eventually, a King became the ruler, but humanity was first ruled by High Priests for a time.
That was around 6,000 years ago. A "few" hundred years (in my eyes meaning around 250-450 years) is about 6% of humanity's time since we first established cities. A lot can happen in a few hundred years, sure, but there are also constant variables that have existed since the inception of civilization. Are these variables fixed? That is up to debate.
Two potentially fixed variables of human civilization that have existed since the start are the following: religion and government.
I think the chance of religion dissipating on a global scale in a few hundred years is equal to the chance that humanity discards the idea of government in that same time frame.
What I do predict happening is that secular portions of humanity may arise and be prominent even. I don't envision religion going away on a global scale in a few hundred years. As others have pointed out on this thread, religion is thriving in many parts of the world currently.
Will religion ever be a thing of the past? We can be optimistic, sure. But realistically, I don't think we are close to that point.
Augustus
…
AFAIK, the statistics say we need another couple of centuries to tell.
The 20th c was unusually violent, and not enough time has passed since then to support a new paradigm.
People were making similar arguments at the start of the 20th c.
I have spent much of my life outside the west and
Much of it within.
It taught me what many see as the product of ideologically neutral reason, is very much culturally contingent.
I like all the places I’ve lived in different ways, but living outside the west does make you appreciate many of the freedoms you take for granted (while also recognising things that have been lost)
Not really. Many educated people outside the west are becoming more religiously austere.
Processes are not uniform.
I am so tired of opening posts like this. The ignorance folks have about the subject of religion makes the ignorance folks have about the subject of science look like a doctoral degree. Except worse, because while religion is a human universal, science is not. You'd think folks would be more familiar with something that is intrinsic to their nature as a species.
Altfish
Veteran Member
Freedom of and from religion personified
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
Well, it depends on what subjective understanding of religion is used.
Balthazzar
Christian Evolutionist
Taking the stories at face value without contextual information can be incredibly misleading, so beyond deeper reflections on what is written in the texts, there are also societal realities at play, as well as other cultural dynamics. I approach my religious texts in a more practical way than some other types do. I'm ignorant to many of the many variables associated, but I effort myself enough to dig through some of it, which I find rewarding when I have those Eureka or "Ahhh, now I get it" experiences in understanding. But, even then even those are only part of the puzzle, so my Ahh now I get it moments are still veiled to the point where I never truly accept anything to be the end all be all truth association, truth being foundational for my search inquiries. Why bother? I was raised with an honest association with my given religious roots. They are what I had to work with. I have increased some understanding since my introduction, and I have found the scriptures to be profitable, but also troubling, but then so is love and work environments. Anyway, I was once told that apple seeds are genetically engineered and that apple seeds can't be grown from seeds. I'm like "Wow, I didn't know that". I still don't know that, but I'm growing peach tree's at the moment from seed. I'll try apples next. From seed. The point being I'm not so quick to take their word for its validity, nor am I so quick to shrug it off as irrelevant.
The percentage of non religious PPL is actually declining. More fraction of people will be religious by 2050 than today.What's the future for religion? It's a big question but it looks like it's on the decline, especially in west.
What are the reasons for the decline?
- Decline of the Patriarchal society
- Acceptance of diverse cultural and societal issues like same sex marriage, gender, abortion, IVF, divorce, abortion, homosexuality and contraception. (Wow)
- Public morality being determined by law and not religion
- Hypocrisies of religion
- Society can see that countries that are less religious actually tend to be less corrupt and have lower murder rates than religious ones
- Individual critical thinking
- Any more?
And how long has religion got? A few hundred years or less?
Here are just a couple of the hundreds of articles on the subject.
Why is religion suddenly declining?
An analysis of religious trends from 1981 to 2007 in 49 countries containing 60% of the world’s population did not find a global resurgence of religion—most high-income countries were becoming less religious—however, it did show that in 33 of the 49 countries studied, people had become more...blog.oup.com
A surprising explanation for the global decline of religion
Since the year 2000, there has been a global decline of religion. In a recent paper, scientists suggest automation could be the cause.bigthink.com
Population of the World's Non-Religious Is on the Decline