Religions Vs. Cults. Is there a solid difference?

[AlchemicalSoul]

Well if it makes you feel better to call religions cults then by all means.
Whatever floats your boat.

Truth is that the word cult carries some pretty negative connotations with it, So unless you're willing to embrace that then I find it disingenuous to assert that religions and cults are interchangeable.

That is not a good reason, I only suggest officially rebranding the word cult because it is a duplicate of the word religion, since this instance of the word has been used to describe organizations that my definition describes than, as well as it not being bastardized historically for political/religious reasons. I think it is okay to change.

Sometimes it is not a good idea to change a word, for example during the Saxon invasion of Western Europe they encountered men and women that revered nature and had a great understanding of both the mundane and magickal aspects of nature. They where called Wise Ones which in Saxon translates as Wicca (Male) or Wicce (Female) when the Saxons where absorbed into the Anglo-Saxons the Early English word for these people became Witch. Later on during the Christian expansion to convert "Heathens" they found that not all of these people wanted to convert. Choosing not to let them be they employed numerous techniques including but not limited to: Torturing, Burning Alive, Taking the Children Away to Raise Them as Christians, Forced Conversions, Adapting local beliefs into Catholicism, and finally Attempting to make Pagan beliefs look Satanic. This last one was done by doing things such as making Satan look like Pan, claiming that dancing under the moon was satanic (Why????), and emphasis given that all magick that does not come from the church is evil, they also said that conversing with these people could lead to demon possession. This wall all carefully engineered to make sure that believers would believe that Pagans where Satanic and could not get evidence to the contrary (very my definition of cultish). Therefore the term Witch was made to mean "Satanic Sorceress" instead of "Wise Nature Magickian". That would be an unjust change not a natural evolution of a word.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

No more funny than how similar a scam can be to a legitimate business. They use the same words and appearances, so that many people are fooled by illegitimate businesses.

At first I liked the analogy but that seems to suggest there is a good way of finding what is "true religion" and what is a "cult". For example is scientology a cult or a religion? Is christianity a cult or a religion? Are there multiple "legitimate" religions?

 

[Yoshua]

From Wikipedia.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult

In the sociological classifications of religious movements in English, a cult is a religious or social group with socially deviant or novel beliefs and practices.[1] However, whether any particular group's beliefs and practices are sufficiently deviant or novel is often unclear, thus making a precise definition problematic.[2][3] In the English speaking world, the word often carries derogatory connotations, but in other European languages, it is used as English-speakers use the word, "religion," sometimes causing confusion for English-speakers reading material translated from other languages.[4][5] The word "cult" has always been controversial because it is (in a pejorative sense) considered a subjective term, used as an ad hominem attack against groups with differing doctrines or practices, which lacks a clear or consistent definition.[6][7]

Beginning in the 1930s, cults became the object of sociological study in the context of the study of religious behavior.[8] Certain groups have been labelled as cults and have been opposed by the Christian countercult movement for their unorthodox beliefs. Since the 1970s, some groups have been opposed by the anti-cult movement, partly motivated in reaction to acts of violence committed by members of some groups. Some of the claims by the anti-cult movement have been disputed by other scholars and by the news media, leading to further controversy. Public and governmental reactions to the cult issue have also been a source of controversy.

A religion is an organized collection of beliefs, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to an order of existence.[note 1] Many religions have narratives, symbols, and sacred histories that aim to explain the meaning of life, the origin of life, or the Universe. From their beliefs about the cosmos and human nature, people may derive morality, ethics, religious laws or a preferred lifestyle.

Many religions may have organized behaviors, clergy, a definition of what constitutes adherence or membership, holy places, and scriptures. The practice of a religion may include rituals, sermons, commemoration or veneration (of a deity, gods, or goddesses), sacrifices, festivals, feasts, trances, initiations, funerary services, matrimonial services, meditation, prayer, music, art, dance, public service, or other aspects of human culture. Religions may also contain mythology.[1]

The word religion is sometimes used interchangeably with faith or set of duties;[2] however, in the words of Émile Durkheim, religion differs from private belief in that it is "something eminently social".[3] A global 2012 poll reports 59% of the world's population as "religious" and 23% as not religious, including 13% who are atheists, with a 9% decrease in religious belief from 2005.[4] However, their 2015 poll found that only 22% of the world population is not religious and only 11% were "convinced atheists".[5] On average, women are "more religious" than men.[6] Some people follow multiple religions or multiple religious principles at the same time, regardless of whether or not the religious principles they follow traditionally allow for syncretism.[7][8][9]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion

From what I gather cults are just less popular religions.

Hi Mcdoo,

There are religion (belief/faith) that are cultic in practices, and there are sects that are cults. I defined "cult" as mind manipulation of a certain religious system/sects that practice their faith under the command of a founder/leader of a church. The members served as the prey by supporting their founder/leader even to the point of death. They are prohibited to counter or refute their teachings but by following a certain pattern as puppets--without freedom of choice. A member that was ex-communicated will be treated as their enemies with threats and black mailing instead of love.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

If Creflo Dollar doesn't lead a cult I don't know who does.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creflo_Dollar


Dollar is known for his controversial teachings regarding prosperity theology, or the gospel of wealth.[13] He has long been criticized for living a lavish lifestyle; he owns two Rolls-Royces, a private jet, and real estate such as a million-dollar home in Atlanta, a $2.5 million home in Demarest, New Jersey, and a $2.5 million home in Manhattan,[13] which he sold for $3.75 million in 2012.[14] Dollar has refused to disclose his salary. Creflo Dollar Ministries received a grade of "F" (failing) for financial transparency by the organization Ministry Watch.[13][15]

On November 6, 2007, United States Senator Chuck Grassley of Iowa, as Chairman of the Senate Finance Committee, began an investigation of several ministries, including Dollar's. Grassley asked for financial information to determine whether Dollar made any personal profit from financial donations and requested that Dollar's ministry make the information available by December 6, 2007. The investigation also asked for information from five other televangelists: Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Eddie L. Long, Joyce Meyer, and Paula White.[16] Dollar contested the probe, arguing that the proper governmental entity to examine religious groups is the IRS, not the Committee on Finance.[17]

On November 24, 2014, Dollar's private Gulfstream III jet, N103CD ran off the runway at Biggin Hill Airport, United Kingdom.[18] There were no serious injuries.[19] To replace the old jet, Dollar launched a fundraising campaign to get his followers to pay approximately $60,000,000 for a new Gulfstream G650 jet. He suggested his followers each commit to giving "$300 or more." The jet he wants is the "fastest plane ever built in civilian aviation."[20][21][22] After receiving immediate backlash, Dollar ended his fundraising campaign. The project was kept as an option on the donation page of ministry's website.[23] Several months later, the board of World Changers Church International announced that they were ready to acquire a Gulfstream G650.

Hi Mcdoo,

Pastor Crefo Dollar focused more on his prosperity theology by focusing in gaining more money inside the church, and pushing the members to give tithes as commitment to be prosperous as the follower of Christ.

Thanks

 

[Akivah]

At first I liked the analogy but that seems to suggest there is a good way of finding what is "true religion" and what is a "cult". For example is scientology a cult or a religion? Is christianity a cult or a religion? Are there multiple "legitimate" religions?

Well, all analogies fail when you pick 'em apart enough. I still think it works to illustrate the issue. Many scams have gone on for years before people figured them out. To answer your questions depends on what your definition is of a true religion versus a cult.

For me personally, a religion is an organized belief in a higher power. Whereas a cult is an organization that seeks to brainwash its members, strip them of the majority of their property, and isolate them from their existing family and friends. So for me, the sheer destructiveness on its adherents is what distinguishes a true religion from a cult. Thus I label Scientology as a cult and Buddhists as a religion. And of course, there will be some that straddle the line, like the Westboro Baptists.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Well, all analogies fail when you pick 'em apart enough. I still think it works. Many scams have gone on for years before people figured them out. To answer your questions depends on what your definition is of a true religion versus a cult.

For me personally, a religion is an organized belief in a higher power. Whereas a cult is an organization that seeks to brainwash its members, strip them of the majority of their property, and isolate them from their existing family and friends. So for me, the sheer destructiveness on its adherents is what distinguishes a true religion from a cult. Thus I label Scientology as a cult and Buddhists as a religion. And of course, there will be some that straddle the line, like the Westboro Baptists.

By your definitions mainstream religions still fit into cults. Do you feel that people aren't brainwashed effectively into believing religion? There are some exceptions sure but for the most part its geographical and cultural rather than any kind of cognitive or logical conclusion based on evidence for the belief.

 

[Akivah]

By your definitions mainstream religions still fit into cults. Do you feel that people aren't brainwashed effectively into believing religion? There are some exceptions sure but for the most part its geographical and cultural rather than any kind of cognitive or logical conclusion based on evidence for the belief.

You truly can't see the difference in the two definitions?
Christian groups seek tithes to be sure, but only about 10% of your income. Scientology seeks all your money by their un-ending $50,000 courses to be clear.
Christians have some buzzwords and terminology, Scientology reinvents the dictionary so that you can't converse with anyone outside their group.
Most Christian groups don't limit who you can interact with, Scientology insists you cut off contact with non-members.
And there is no fallout if you leave most Christian groups, whereas Scientology will institute dirty tricks against leaving members and harass and picket them.

And you can't see a difference??

 

[Quintessence]

I think the first paragraph from the Wiki entry tells you everything you really need to know, albeit simplified.

"Cult" used properly (as in academically) is part of a broader classification scheme used to describe religions, which includes what the Wiki says (deviant or novel) but also is used to describe small, new religious movements as well as historical worship practices centered around a particular deity in a given location (i.e., the cult of Apollo at Klaros).

"Cult" used by laypeople and in popular culture has a completely different meaning. It's not used as a neutral or impartial descriptor, it's used as a slur, as the Wiki points out, or it is used as a designator for groups that exhibit specific social dynamics whether religious or not. As such, it's really best to avoid using the term at all.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

You truly can't see the difference in the two definitions?
Christian groups seek tithes to be sure, but only about 10% of your income. Scientology seeks all your money by their un-ending $50,000 courses to be clear.
Christians have some buzzwords and terminology, Scientology reinvents the dictionary so that you can't converse with anyone outside their group.
Most Christian groups don't limit who you can interact with, Scientology insists you cut off contact with non-members.
And there is no fallout if you leave most Christian groups, whereas Scientology will institute dirty tricks against leaving members and harass and picket them.

And you can't see a difference??

If you think there are no fallouts to leaving Christianity then I would invite you to go back and time and stop going to church and proclaim Atheism in the late 1600s. For extra points do it in or around the Salem area of Mass.

To be sure that Christianity has slowly been beaten back to something at lest seemingly somewhat reasonable. However it has taken secularism nearly 2000 years to do this. Extremist Islam today is worse than it has ever been. And none of this has anything to do with being brainwashed or not. You are now talking about the degree of harm it provides to its followers. There are tons of "cults" that are far less harmful than Christianity. Many pagan religions are called or classified as "cults" and all they say is respect nature. No money need be given. Hell some of them believe that taking money for religious reasons is morally wrong. Yet they are cults.

If you want to make an argument that cults are more harmful that religions and that is how we can look at two different kinds of harm. Harm to the individual and harm in a grand scale. No cult in history has ever come close to the harm done by Christianity or Islam on the grand scale and with the exception of suicide cults I don't think any cult has ever been worse to its parishioners than the historically worst time of Christianity or Islam.

 

[Cephus]

You truly can't see the difference in the two definitions?
Christian groups seek tithes to be sure, but only about 10% of your income. Scientology seeks all your money by their un-ending $50,000 courses to be clear.
Christians have some buzzwords and terminology, Scientology reinvents the dictionary so that you can't converse with anyone outside their group.
Most Christian groups don't limit who you can interact with, Scientology insists you cut off contact with non-members.
And there is no fallout if you leave most Christian groups, whereas Scientology will institute dirty tricks against leaving members and harass and picket them.

And you can't see a difference??

But these things happen in mainstream religions too. Only a month or so ago, there was the woman who was billed for more than $1000 by her church because she hadn't been tithing enough, and in just the last day or two, there was a case where a 92-year old woman was thrown out of her church because she wasn't giving them money. I can go look up the links if you want. And yes, mainstream churches encourage you to remain within the faith, they tell you not to marry people who are not part of your particular sect, etc. This is more common than you seem to want to think. And are you trying to tell us that Orthodox Judaism is a cult? They are most certainly highly insular, just as you describe Scientology.

 

[Cephus]

If you think there are no fallouts to leaving Christianity then I would invite you to go back and time and stop going to church and proclaim Atheism in the late 1600s. For extra points do it in or around the Salem area of Mass.

To be sure that Christianity has slowly been beaten back to something at lest seemingly somewhat reasonable. However it has taken secularism nearly 2000 years to do this. Extremist Islam today is worse than it has ever been. And none of this has anything to do with being brainwashed or not. You are now talking about the degree of harm it provides to its followers. There are tons of "cults" that are far less harmful than Christianity. Many pagan religions are called or classified as "cults" and all they say is respect nature. No money need be given. Hell some of them believe that taking money for religious reasons is morally wrong. Yet they are cults.

If you want to make an argument that cults are more harmful that religions and that is how we can look at two different kinds of harm. Harm to the individual and harm in a grand scale. No cult in history has ever come close to the harm done by Christianity or Islam on the grand scale and with the exception of suicide cults I don't think any cult has ever been worse to its parishioners than the historically worst time of Christianity or Islam.

The reason Islam is as bad as it is today is exactly as you've said, it hasn't benefited from secular humanity putting rational holds on it's religious outbursts like Christianity and other religions in the west. You don't usually find Muslims beheading people in the United States. Sure, it happens on rare occasion, but nowhere near what happens in the Middle East, where religion has control and gets to run rampant without a leash.

That's really the problem, there isn't a set of agreed-upon criteria that defines what a cult is and what a cult isn't. As I said before, the religious throw around the "cult" word to insult other religions that they don't like. This kind of behavior is commonplace among all strong religions, it becomes weaker as religions become more liberal, because at that point, it's little more than a social club that meets on Sunday, without strongly held beliefs that everyone takes seriously.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

The reason Islam is as bad as it is today is exactly as you've said, it hasn't benefited from secular humanity putting rational holds on it's religious outbursts like Christianity and other religions in the west. You don't usually find Muslims beheading people in the United States. Sure, it happens on rare occasion, but nowhere near what happens in the Middle East, where religion has control and gets to run rampant without a leash.

That's really the problem, there isn't a set of agreed-upon criteria that defines what a cult is and what a cult isn't. As I said before, the religious throw around the "cult" word to insult other religions that they don't like. This kind of behavior is commonplace among all strong religions, it becomes weaker as religions become more liberal, because at that point, it's little more than a social club that meets on Sunday, without strongly held beliefs that everyone takes seriously.

The primary definitive difference that separates a cult from "not a cult" is size and age of the movement.

 

[McDoogins]

You truly can't see the difference in the two definitions?
Christian groups seek tithes to be sure, but only about 10% of your income. Scientology seeks all your money by their un-ending $50,000 courses to be clear.
Christians have some buzzwords and terminology, Scientology reinvents the dictionary so that you can't converse with anyone outside their group.
Most Christian groups don't limit who you can interact with, Scientology insists you cut off contact with non-members.
And there is no fallout if you leave most Christian groups, whereas Scientology will institute dirty tricks against leaving members and harass and picket them.

And you can't see a difference??

He does have a point. When South Park made fun of Scientology the church had members spy on Matt Stone and Trey Parker (the creators of South Park) to see if they could dig up any dirt.



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/24/church-of-scientology-investigate-south-park_n_1027538.html

 

[Cephus]

The primary definitive difference that separates a cult from "not a cult" is size and age of the movement.

Exactly the point I made earlier and I got arguments. Granted, it was from the religious who didn't like the fact that their religion is indistinguishable from a cult, but still...

 

[AlchemicalSoul]

Hi Mcdoo,

There are religion (belief/faith) that are cultic in practices, and there are sects that are cults. I defined "cult" as mind manipulation of a certain religious system/sects that practice their faith under the command of a founder/leader of a church. The members served as the prey by supporting their founder/leader even to the point of death. They are prohibited to counter or refute their teachings but by following a certain pattern as puppets--without freedom of choice. A member that was ex-communicated will be treated as their enemies with threats and black mailing instead of love.

Thanks

So most Evangelical/Fundamentalist Christians and Muslims?

 

[AlchemicalSoul]

He does have a point. When South Park made fun of Scientology the church had members spy on Matt Stone and Trey Parker (the creators of South Park) to see if they could dig up any dirt.



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/24/church-of-scientology-investigate-south-park_n_1027538.html

Scientology is probably the religion which I dislike the most.

 

[Akivah]

If you think there are no fallouts to leaving Christianity then I would invite you to go back and time and stop going to church and proclaim Atheism in the late 1600s. For extra points do it in or around the Salem area of Mass.

I thought we were talking about the present, not ancient history. Scientology didn't exist 50 years ago.

To be sure that Christianity has slowly been beaten back to something at lest seemingly somewhat reasonable. However it has taken secularism nearly 2000 years to do this. Extremist Islam today is worse than it has ever been. And none of this has anything to do with being brainwashed or not. You are now talking about the degree of harm it provides to its followers.

I'm certainly no great fan of Christianity, but there is a big difference between legitimate churches and the destructiveness of a bona fide cult. Regarding Islam, while they do turn out large numbers of terrorists, even I would not say that the majority of Muslims are terrorists. Most are people that just want to live their lives.

The cults that I am talking about have everything to do with brain washing. It is how they garner and keep their members.

There are tons of "cults" that are far less harmful than Christianity. Many pagan religions are called or classified as "cults" and all they say is respect nature. No money need be given. Hell some of them believe that taking money for religious reasons is morally wrong. Yet they are cults.

Labeling nature religions as cults is not something that I've done. Pagans yes, cults no. To my definition, cults are harmful to their own members. Some of them even culminate in mass suicide.

I thought this thread was to distinguish between cults and normative religions. Not to dredge up history and attempt to lay blame for all wars in history at religions' feet. While ignoring nationalistic, economic, and political causes.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

I thought we were talking about the present, not ancient history. Scientology didn't exist 50 years ago.

Irrelevant. I was making a point I believe I made rather well.

I'm certainly no great fan of Christianity, but there is a big difference between legitimate churches and the destructiveness of a bona fide cult. Regarding Islam, while they do turn out large numbers of terrorists, even I would not say that the majority of Muslims are terrorists. Most are people that just want to live their lives.

The cults that I am talking about have everything to do with brain washing. It is how they garner and keep their members.

That is how most religions get their members. In fact I would say more than 99% of all religions get their recruits through brainwashing. Big religions get the awesome advantage of having their own followers do the brainwashing of the unsuspecting children rather than having to rely on one or two highly skilled and charismatic individuals.

Labeling nature religions as cults is not something that I've done. Pagans yes, cults no. To my definition, cults are harmful to their own members. Some of them even culminate in mass suicide.

I thought this thread was to distinguish between cults and normative religions. Not to dredge up history and attempt to lay blame for all wars in history at religions' feet. While ignoring nationalistic, economic, and political causes.

And the only real definitive difference is the size of the religion. Christianity in its early days was called a cult and is still recognized as a cult during that time. It grew into a large scale religion so it then looses its "cult" status. Most cults are not inherently more harmful than religions but are simply smaller and more obscure. In fact Scientology is often no referred to as a cult anymore because of its size and status.

 

[Akivah]

But these things happen in mainstream religions too. Only a month or so ago, there was the woman who was billed for more than $1000 by her church because she hadn't been tithing enough, and in just the last day or two, there was a case where a 92-year old woman was thrown out of her church because she wasn't giving them money. I can go look up the links if you want. And yes, mainstream churches encourage you to remain within the faith, they tell you not to marry people who are not part of your particular sect, etc. This is more common than you seem to want to think. And are you trying to tell us that Orthodox Judaism is a cult? They are most certainly highly insular, just as you describe Scientology.

As cults attempt to masquerade as legitimate religions, they will appear to share the same characteristics. As I said earlier, a scam has many of the same characteristics as the entity that they try to copy. I just received another notice from the IRS today warning against scammers that give out badge numbers, have access to personal SSN, and appear to call from IRS Headquarters. Does that mean that the scammers are legitimate government tax collectors?

Great, so you can list a case here or a case there of some church behaving poorly. For the cults, behaving poorly is how they operate all the time.

 

[Akivah]

Irrelevant. I was making a point I believe I made rather well.

I think your logic is lacking. All I am getting is that you have a low opinion of all religions. If you spent any time at all with a true cultic devotee, the difference between them and a normal person is like night and day. They don't call adherents of Scientology "Ron-droids" for nothing.

And the only real definitive difference is the size of the religion. Christianity in its early days was called a cult and is still recognized as a cult during that time. It grew into a large scale religion so it then looses its "cult" status. Most cults are not inherently more harmful than religions but are simply smaller and more obscure. In fact Scientology is often no referred to as a cult anymore because of its size and status.

Well due to the attributes of a cult, it CAN't get very large. First, it is destructive to its members. So if people can escape in any way, they will. And the bad publicity makes it tough to recruit new members on a large scale. Second, a cult normally is led by a charismatic leader. Once that leader dies, the group normally peters out.

Being harmful to its members is one of the definitions that describes a cult. If a group is not destructive, then it may not be a cult at all.

Most people that I know call Scientology a cult. And it is shrinking.