Religious fervor or mental illness?

[Twilight Hue]

Geez, my thread seems not only to be skating on thin ice but disappearing down a black hole as well...

Well to bring it up to snuff a bit.

I would consider religious fervor to be more in line with irrationality first then that with mental illness, although it's clear religious fanaticism, when taken to extremes could conceivably lead a person down the road to where mental illness can be a consideration when a person acts bizarre and unpredictable.

 

[siti]

Truly, you are skating on no ice at all, just being kept up out of water by your beliefs.

When people claim on one side that a singularity exploded, (black holes don't explode as a rule), and this became our universe, out of nothing, that this created out of chaos all things of order and life so complex we cannot comprehend it, where our brains are working data on a higher order than super computers, then I would say that I have a good argument for these people being completely nuts, absolutely raving insane.

Thus, when the belief in ID corresponds with our day to day cause and effect, the attack on religious people for believing in God is absolutely unacceptable. You have the right to your beliefs, no matter how insane I think they may be, but let me be accorded the same right vis-a-vis yourself.

This subject is better left in Pandora's box unless it causes all kinds of warning messages on this website. It is a shame that some like to bring this subject up. That there exists mental illness, and a lot of things connected with this is true. But, let's get the ones who are ill treatment, and don't try to put others whose philosophies you don't agree with boxed into this kind of mentality.

Well OK - I honestly think the problem here is not a question of whether or not religious fervor is related to mental illness but that people still think that mental illness equates to being "completely nuts" or "raving insane". Neither am I impeding anyone's "right" to believe whatever they want to believe. To be honest I think the "shame" is not in bringing the subject up, but that the very mention of the subject illicits such an unwarranted and, frankly, unbalanced outburst. Feel free to report my post if you are so inclined - I will not be offended - I'll just conclude that perhaps we don't yet have a sufficiently mature appreciation of either religion or mental illness to be able to discuss the matter rationally - and I'll continue my investigation of where I think the boundary might be without you - sadly

 

[Grandliseur]

My comments were for the you tube video only. I don't know enough about specific mental illnesses that have quasi-religious experiences to comment on this topic.

As I mentioned once before, I got that. However, now that I have had a few mins to think about it, let me have the place it was debunked and what makes some think that all of these types of videos are not happening for sure? There are obvious cases where security cameras have filmed this kind of event.

 

[Grandliseur]

Here is some places to start:
Gravitational singularity - Wikipedia


The site you linked is pretty basic, as is the wiki page, but gives an overview into the fact that singularities are more diverse and more complicated than just black holes.

Here's some more:
Is the Big Bang a black hole?
Big Bang: Expansion, NOT Explosion
Black Holes Could Be 'Back Doors' to Another Universe, Say Physicists < talking about naked singularities and wormholes with or without black holes.

All I saw was talk and no evidence. Claims that remain unsubstantiated. Claims that because the singularity was expanding, it avoided the event horizon. Oops - how long was it not expanding before that and when and why did it expand. This is just plain invention with no factual truth behind it.

You choose to accept this kind of idea/s. Why should I?!

Another point is that a singularity is a point without dimensions. It is not a tube of a wormhole. A wormhole is a tube like connection between two points. That is not a singularity.

Most of the above is SciFi, various models that scientists use to try to explain what is, yet cannot because of the matter antimatter elimination.

I understand your inflation, but your aversion to the word explosion is nonetheless a technicality. I have read about this before. You have no idea what set off this process of inflation, etc. There is nothing at all expect the universe we see and words on pages that keep being rewritten with new ideas.

 

[Grandliseur]

I'll just conclude that perhaps we don't yet have a sufficiently mature appreciation of either religion or mental illness to be able to discuss the matter rationally - and I'll continue my investigation of where I think the boundary might be without you - sadly

Well, you are welcome to investigate all you want. But, if you saw my post, once this subject is entered, in my mind what I think is better left unsaid when such matters are brought up, and if you think the same of me (being mental), our communication goes to hell in a hand-basket and perhaps without the hand-basket. I prefer not having to give in to my negativity and simply have a cordial exchange with you guys.

It is clear that much cannot be agreed upon, but is that really a problem! Nothing a chess game cannot solve.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

All I saw was talk and no evidence

That's a pretty common sentiment from people with preconceived notions.

 

[sun rise]

Why is it that if I "hear God" I am probably "mad" - but if I completely accept the second or third hand account of someone else who "heard God" and then got a lot of other people to believe he had heard God, I am just "religious"?

Where is the boundary between religious fervor and mental illness? Is it just a matter of when it becomes an obstacle to "normal functioning"? But who defines "normal functioning"?

In the East, especially in India, there are those who are believed to be intoxicated with love for God who behave like someone with mental illness. I don't believe most people can tell the difference. People intoxicated with love for God are sometimes called "masts" pronounced "must" How does one translate 'mast' into English

I know of no such "masts" who have said that they literally heard a voice they attributed to God.

 

[taykair]

We know from recent history that there are those who will attempt to subvert or destroy an idea - whether religious or political or lifestyle choice or what have you - by offering "scientific evidence" that those who hold to such ideas are mentally disturbed. In its most benign form, this attitude is really nothing more than the "sane" person's way to feel better about himself by slandering the "insane" person. At its worst, the "sane" folks may give those who are in power the excuse they need for abridging the rights of the "insane".

We've seen this before. First, there is resentment of the "other". Then comes the mocking - the vile jokes directed at them. Then comes the insincere "sympathy for their mental problems". Until, one day, when enough people are convinced that these lies are indeed the truth, the "problem people" are either locked away, sent to camps, or are exterminated.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why is it that if I "hear God" I am probably "mad" - but if I completely accept the second or third hand account of someone else who "heard God" and then got a lot of other people to believe he had heard God, I am just "religious"?

Because there is a logical reason to believe that Prophets heard from God -- there is evidence -- whereas there is NO reason to believe that anyone else ever heard from God, except their own testimony:

“The greatest bestowal of God in the world of humanity is religion; for assuredly the divine teachings of religion are above all other sources of instruction and development to man. Religion confers upon man eternal life and guides his footsteps in the world of morality. It opens the doors of unending happiness and bestows everlasting honor upon the human kingdom. It has been the basis of all civilization and progress in the history of mankind.......

But when we speak of religion we mean the essential foundation or reality of religion, not the dogmas and blind imitations which have gradually encrusted it and which are the cause of the decline and effacement of a nation. These are inevitably destructive and a menace and hindrance to a nation’s life,—even as it is recorded in the Torah and confirmed in history that when the Jews became fettered by empty forms and imitations the wrath of God became manifest.......

What then is the mission of the divine prophets? Their mission is the education and advancement of the world of humanity. They are the real teachers and educators, the universal instructors of mankind. If we wish to discover whether any one of these great souls or messengers was in reality a prophet of God we must investigate the facts surrounding His life and history; and the first point of our investigation will be the education He bestowed upon mankind. If He has been an educator, if He has really trained a nation or people, causing it to rise from the lowest depths of ignorance to the highest station of knowledge, then we are sure that He was a prophet. This is a plain and clear method of procedure, proof that is irrefutable. We do not need to seek after other proofs.” Bahá’í World Faith, pp. 270, 272, 273

 

[oldbadger]

I wonder what RF people think? Can we help Dr. Morris define the boundaries between religious fervor and mental illness?

I couldn't open the link but I'll bet that Doctor Morris is both very prejudiced about religions and a very poor researcher, both.

Had Doctor Morris researched clothing fashions over the centuries he would not doubt have discovered that avid followers of fashion are lip-bibblingly window-licking crazies. For instance, at this time eople are walking around in the freezing cold with their knees sticking out of expensively ripped jeans, and their freezing wastes exposed to the wind.

Folks are spending thousands of dollars to buy an intangible virtual coin with no National currency value anywhere.

People actually bother to leave their homes to join in political rallies which they know will meet with opposition and conflict.

And on..... and on....... we're all completely bonkers, just in differing ways..... so if Mrs Bloggs wants to go to church on Sunday we shouldn't section-her under our mental health act and put her away.

 

[Trailblazer]

I wonder what RF people think? Can we help Dr. Morris define the boundaries between religious fervor and mental illness?

Why is it that nonbelievers single out religious fervor as so problematic? Other kinds of fervor such as sexual fervor do a lot more damage to the individual and to society and do no good for either.

 

[A Kings Assassin]

Discussions in another thread prompt me to post this. First, a link to a Scientific American article addressing the question: How Do You Distinguish between Religious Fervor and Mental Illness?

I know I'm skating on thin ice with many even approaching this subject, but I have a sneaking suspicion that there is a deep relationship between what we would normally consider as mental illness and 'religious fervor'.

The author of the article concludes "we need more to help guide us through the difficult circumstances in which mental health care and religion collide."

I wonder what RF people think? Can we help Dr. Morris define the boundaries between religious fervor and mental illness?

Discussions in another thread prompt me to post this. First, a link to a Scientific American article addressing the question: How Do You Distinguish between Religious Fervor and Mental Illness?

I know I'm skating on thin ice with many even approaching this subject, but I have a sneaking suspicion that there is a deep relationship between what we would normally consider as mental illness and 'religious fervor'.

The author of the article concludes "we need more to help guide us through the difficult circumstances in which mental health care and religion collide."

I wonder what RF people think? Can we help Dr. Morris define the boundaries between religious fervor and mental illness?

Discussions in another thread prompt me to post this. First, a link to a Scientific American article addressing the question: How Do You Distinguish between Religious Fervor and Mental Illness?

I know I'm skating on thin ice with many even approaching this subject, but I have a sneaking suspicion that there is a deep relationship between what we would normally consider as mental illness and 'religious fervor'.

The author of the article concludes "we need more to help guide us through the difficult circumstances in which mental health care and religion collide."

I wonder what RF people think? Can we help Dr. Morris define the boundaries between religious fervor and mental illness?

I'd like to think maybe I could help shed a bit of light on your question and I'll certainly try to assist . I'll use an example from real life facts and possibilities so as to emphasise my point . First of all they say it comes in threes , I'll use a book , let's say Lord of the Rings , in the year 2000 they referred to it as Y2K , I'd quote , Why 2 ? and add Kings ... Then I'd say imagine for a moment your looking down with me and you'd see 0 0 0 , next the second book titled The Two Towers , again look down with me and you could then see , 0 X 0 , a bit like the recent 9/11 tragedy huh , and finally book three , The Return of the King and looking down one last time you'd see 0 + 0 , the fallen cross of the crucification righted once more hence righting the ultimate wrong in the eyes of God Almighty , two men , two crosses , One true religion,(Amen) in Hebrew meaning truly as it does but the thing I find most captivating is the addition of the word " one " , the use of the letter t twice which I'd use to signify crosses and if placed correctly would spell out A t o n e m e n t , I know the word Amen was destined for use as it is only after this comes to pass

 

[Grandliseur]

That's a pretty common sentiment from people with preconceived notions.

Are you saying you are a neutral observer? Or do you have your own biases too.

As far as I know there are several competing models for our universe and its origin. In the recent past we may have had even more. Still, there is not 100% agreement among scientists on the issue, neither have they solved the many problems with this.

 

[A Kings Assassin]

And just for fun I'd do this too , imagine prior to 9/11 , this time look up with me as if you were there ... you'd see 2 towers looking somewhat like 2 capital i's without the dots atop and then it would go something like this ... (I) as in tower 1 looking up and next (X) as in a plane before impact , then another (X) as in another plane looking up again followed by (I) , tower two ....and (X) another plane huh ,.. Ironically 9/11 or IX/XI.

 

[Lyndon]

I would think believing in the big bang, and matter expanding almost at the speed of light, and not considering that some kind of explosion would be evidence of some form of mental illness.

 

[A Kings Assassin]

Are you saying you are a neutral observer? Or do you have your own biases too.

As far as I know there are several competing models for our universe and its origin. In the recent past we may have had even more. Still, there is not 100% agreement among scientists on the issue, neither have they solved the many problems with this.

When it comes to cons throughout history I'm a firm believer the biggest one is CON SCIENCE seeing as the sole purpose to die on a cross was to pay for all sins for all people past , present and future and what with purgatory being what it is the act of atonement I'd Imagine is for the purpose of purging ' ONE ' soul and one soul only .

 

[Grandliseur]

This one is a known fake. Debunk it yourself
The Null Hypothesis.: A Rough Guide To Debunking Fake Ghost Videos.

That was an interesting site you had there.

Does that mean that you dismiss all supernatural activities as frauds?

 

[A Kings Assassin]

That was an interesting site you had there.

Does that mean that you dismiss all supernatural activities as frauds?

Certainly not , I'm just a simple man who percieves things in its simplest form for instance in religion you see 3 forms as in Jesus Christ , Atheist and Satanist but just by using Amazing Grace how sweet the sound , its fair to say or (atone) isn't it in the pursuit of one true religion and if you put one on the end of all 3 in the eyes of religion it clearly says whether it be Jesus Christ , atheist or satanist they all would end with ' is tone ' .

 

[Grandliseur]

When it comes to cons throughout history I'm a firm believer the biggest one is CON SCIENCE seeing as the sole purpose to die on a cross was to pay for all sins for all people past , present and future and what with purgatory being what it is the act of atonement I'd Imagine is for the purpose of purging ' ONE ' soul and one soul only .

Whatever tickles your fancy is fine with me.

I also reserve my right to be skeptical about things. I neither believe in heaven, hell, purgatory, or other such things when one is dead. Dead is dead and gone, not there, sayonary; others can believe what they want about the universe, etc.

I liked the article on singularities:
Gravitational singularity - Wikipedia

But even there it says: "Some theories, such as the theory of loop quantum gravity suggest that singularities may not exist"

Thus, I do not believe that a singularity was the origin of our universe as is stated today, especially since it should have cancelled out with matter and anti-matter. Whatever singularity birthed our universe was a direct action of God. But, others don't see it that way.

And, I don't care, just as I don't care what churches say.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Discussions in another thread prompt me to post this. First, a link to a Scientific American article addressing the question: How Do You Distinguish between Religious Fervor and Mental Illness?

I know I'm skating on thin ice with many even approaching this subject, but I have a sneaking suspicion that there is a deep relationship between what we would normally consider as mental illness and 'religious fervor'.

The author of the article concludes "we need more to help guide us through the difficult circumstances in which mental health care and religion collide."

I wonder what RF people think? Can we help Dr. Morris define the boundaries between religious fervor and mental illness?

I doubt of there's any real link between religion and mental illness.

I was a psychiatry resident for 7 years before moving into general practice where I have been working for the last 10 years. There are plenty of mental health problems in general practice and some researchers estimate that 1/3 of people that come to consult with a GP have a major mental health disorder. Conducting a proper psychiatric evaluation takes into a account not just a persons symptoms but includes a thorough history that considers any recent stressors or change in circumstances, medical problems, past psychiatric health issues, family history of mental disorders, drug and alcohol issues, their current social situation including living arrangements, work, and recreational activities, their upbringing and relationship with key family members including parents and siblings, and of course any religious or spiritual beliefs. A properly conducted psychiatric assessment usually takes up to about an hour. If this is done properly and not rushed by a competent, experienced psychiatrist then it would be very unusual to confuse religious beliefs for a mental disorder as your paper suggests.

Historically, psychiatrists have avoided clinically diagnosing people as delusional just because they have false beliefs. There needs to be other requirements.

Often people have ideas and attitudes about life and that are just wrong, whether its imagining they are more or less talented than others, having ideas that make them a lot of money, or they are going to find perfect love. Delusional is not the same as illogical or irrational.

Religion or spiritual beliefs have been part of practically any community from the beginning of human history. Its easy to label one group of people with particular beliefs as 'delusional' simply because we don't like them. That's the type of prejudice many of us can have to some extent and medical doctors need to avoid letting prejudice affect clinical decision making.

Massive numbers of religious people are functional. They are part of families, maintain work, and pay taxes. We would avoid classifying functional people as delusional.

Neuroscience has failed to differentiate pathology in the brains of most religious people so there's no real scientific evidence linking religion with mental illness.

I share this article as another pespective.

Why Religion Is Not Delusion | HuffPost