Religious fervor or mental illness?

[sayak83]

That was an interesting site you had there.

Does that mean that you dismiss all supernatural activities as frauds?

I don't think any of the videos is genuine. If they exist, they exist in planes that don't interact with our sense organs...i.e. they can't generate optical, auditory effects etc.

 

[David T]

Discussions in another thread prompt me to post this. First, a link to a Scientific American article addressing the question: How Do You Distinguish between Religious Fervor and Mental Illness?

I know I'm skating on thin ice with many even approaching this subject, but I have a sneaking suspicion that there is a deep relationship between what we would normally consider as mental illness and 'religious fervor'.

The author of the article concludes "we need more to help guide us through the difficult circumstances in which mental health care and religion collide."

I wonder what RF people think? Can we help Dr. Morris define the boundaries between religious fervor and mental illness?

Sigmund freud is dysfunctional and thus delusional but yet he functions fine inside culture and is normal. 98% of all mental illness is confined to a particular region of the brain self labeled self identified as "higher functioning."that particular region cuts itself off from reality totally in serious me talking to myself breakdowns which is preceeded by a lot of dysfunction long before the breakdowns.

I have hiked and spent a thousand days out camping I have yet to pass a single mentally ill person babbling on about some theory they have. Breathing is the last thing on their minds.

So we are baffled by all this but we are collectively looking at ourselves in our worst state the reality of what we call normal as it plays itself out.

The unconscious is a something freud projected onto and in doing so that's mental dysfunction.. Jung on the other hand is totally different. Normal is freudian, not normal is jung.

Hildegard de bingen said "we cannot live in an interpreted world for an interpreted world is not home". She blew up the first two words of the Nicene creed " we believe" which is followed by " we do not believe" followed by we "are agnostic" all three are self deluding dysfunctional statements and thus normal.

Breathe, a rather remarkable phenomena we take classes to remind us as a culture to breathe. Yoga, and that's pitiful out of touch disconnected 'I believe, I don't believe i am agnostic." all dysfunctional pre symptoms of mental illness.

 

[David T]

Truly, you are skating on no ice at all, just being kept up out of water by your beliefs.

When people claim on one side that a singularity exploded, (black holes don't explode as a rule), and this became our universe, out of nothing, that this created out of chaos all things of order and life so complex we cannot comprehend it, where our brains are working data on a higher order than super computers, then I would say that I have a good argument for these people being completely nuts, absolutely raving insane.

Thus, when the belief in ID corresponds with our day to day cause and effect, the attack on religious people for believing in God is absolutely unacceptable. You have the right to your beliefs, no matter how insane I think they may be, but let me be accorded the same right vis-a-vis yourself.

This subject is better left in Pandora's box unless it causes all kinds of warning messages on this website. It is a shame that some like to bring this subject up. That there exists mental illness, and a lot of things connected with this is true. But, let's get the ones who are ill treatment, and don't try to put others whose philosophies you don't agree with boxed into this kind of mentality.

Did you see a few days ago, someone had a post where he asked a 'spiritual entity' (Eric was it) to prove himself to the poster. Did you read what he said happened afterwards?

Around min 2 or so, interesting things happen.
Wonder how such things are dismissed by atheists since many of these things are caught on vid security cams:

I look at the freud vs jung split. It's interesting and yes there is a lot of validity in religion. Confused but hell that's normal!!!

 

[PureX]

Religious fervor reveals a person's desperate need/desire to "transcend the self". Which means that being one's self is not currently a valued experience. And that would indicate to me that there is a need/desire for some psychological help.

It is possible that this help could be delivered in religious trappings and terminology, if that were necessary or more effective. But I would say the greater problem at present is the unwillingness of so many people both in need, and involved in providing psychological help, to avoid interacting with each other.

 

[David T]

Thank you. I think freedom to believe without being put in mental ill boxes is a must.

While I do believe that a Big Bang happened, I do not accept the explanations for it. Also, if we do accept science, then there should be no universe at all; of the 4 nothings, the absolute nothing should be what we had, but don't. We have a universe contrary to what science expects. (matter antimatter problem)

Does that perfectionist you know really suffer from obsessive compulsive disorder? Is that one employee who likes to argue suffering from oppositional defiant disorder?

I think the general concern is when a condition impedes everyday life. If you literally hear god chances are something is wrong. As we scale up the fervor level of anything we will eventually get to a point where we see problems. As long as a person is not causing or threatening to cause harm to oneself or others, they should be free to choose or forgo treatment as they see fit.

Yes. We might not understand it but we all can recognize it. What's humorous is there are all kinds on non religious mentally ill as well that seems to not be recognized. Many have highly developed "scientific theories!!!

 

[David T]

Discussions in another thread prompt me to post this. First, a link to a Scientific American article addressing the question: How Do You Distinguish between Religious Fervor and Mental Illness?

I know I'm skating on thin ice with many even approaching this subject, but I have a sneaking suspicion that there is a deep relationship between what we would normally consider as mental illness and 'religious fervor'.

The author of the article concludes "we need more to help guide us through the difficult circumstances in which mental health care and religion collide."

I wonder what RF people think? Can we help Dr. Morris define the boundaries between religious fervor and mental illness?

Siti We should have a thread about carl and Friedrich nietztche. The believer father and atheist son who go mad. Curiously believers never mention the father, atheists excuse Friedrich as not really being mad!!! Now that whole mad relationship between father and son is very curious. David Foster Wallace hung himself at 46. Isnt that me talking illness? Me talking myself into depression and then into death? Kurt cobain isn't that mental illness? We can see it we don't understand it because the locality is the place we tend to understand. A bit like the ground is false, why is it I will stand over here and examine it as if I am free of it.

 

[David T]

Religious fervor reveals a person's desperate need/desire to "transcend the self". Which means that being one's self is not currently a valued experience. And that would indicate to me that there is a need/desire for some psychological help.

It is possible that this help could be delivered in religious trappings and terminology, if that were necessary or more effective. But I would say the greater problem at present is the unwillingness of so many people both in need, and involved in providing psychological help, to avoid interacting with each other.

You just pointed to Friedrich nietztche the atheist!!!! Hey wait you said religious fever.

 

[David T]

We're all experts in what we believe - I am not asking for a professional psych evaluation guide - or intending to insult religious people. I actually think @Grandliseur has a point about the singularities thing - we don't have any objective evidence that such things really exist (at least not as dimensionless points at any rate which description really equates to non-existence) - so what really is the difference - in psychological terms between believing in non-existent entities that emerge from mathematics and believing in non-existent entities that emerge from religious traditions or mystical experiences? Its a conversation I was hoping for, not a demonization of either religion on the one hand or mental illness on the other.

Mystics and the insane are equal. The insane are disconnected from reality no breathing mystics are all about breathing. One drowns in the unconscious the other is surfing swimming diving no problem. The mystic sees the mad the mad cannot see the mystic.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I wonder what RF people think? Can we help Dr. Morris define the boundaries between religious fervor and mental illness?

It basically comes down to cultural norms. If a First Nations member tells a behavioral health professional she speaks to her ancestors, that is a part of her religion and cultural traditions and is probably not a mental illness. If the "average" American says they talk to their ancestors, and lack any religious affiliation that could normally lead to things such as group thought/behavior (such as the Pentecostal practice of speaking in tongues), it's more likely to be an indication of mental illness.
And, really, it tends to come down knowing your client. Such as, I have one client you pretty much have to have more than a basic knowledge of Catholicism or else you'll think he's more crazy than he really is, and indeed a good number of my coworkers have thought he's really calling one of his doctor's a saint as they don't know Catholicism has a saint with that name and my client isn't actually calling the doctor a saint but rather saying it as a compliment that he is like this particular saint.

 

[Orbit]

But aren't religious delusions common in people with schizophrenia or some bipolar psychoses? I mean, there are patterns to when people go off the deep end, aren't there?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I got that.

I still resent this implication. It means that the atheist/s considers nearly all of humanity mentally ill while he himself, themselves are not. It speaks for itself who is thus and therefore mentally ill. Frankly, that subject should be stricken from this website as inflammatory and insulting to so many. It should be reported and enforced by the moderators.

Really? You want a sincerely asked question about where the line between religious fervor and mental illness should be drawn to be considered banned speech because you are offended by the implications?

Did you feel that you were being called mentally ill? Sam Harris might say so:

Did you want to report and ban that, too?

How about your comment in the second post of this thread? Should that be reported and censored as well?:

"When people claim on one side that a singularity exploded, (black holes don't explode as a rule), and this became our universe, out of nothing, that this created out of chaos all things of order and life so complex we cannot comprehend it, where our brains are working data on a higher order than super computers, then I would say that I have a good argument for these people being completely nuts, absolutely raving insane."

I don't think it should be. I think it's just fine that you expressed such an opinion. I don't feel threatened or insulted by it at all.

Nor should you.

And I don't consider you mentally ill.

 

[Revoltingest]

It basically comes down to cultural norms. If a First Nations member tells a behavioral health professional she speaks to her ancestors, that is a part of her religion and cultural traditions and is probably not a mental illness. If the "average" American says they talk to their ancestors, and lack any religious affiliation that could normally lead to things such as group thought/behavior (such as the Pentecostal practice of speaking in tongues), it's more likely to be an indication of mental illness.

That sounds like the old "noble savage reverence syndrome", ie, when they
do loopy things, it's their proud & ancient culture. But when one's redneck
neighbor does the same thing, it's dismissed as ignorant raving.
When I talk to my cats or a reluctant fastener, it's not mental illness....usually.
But when the cats or nails talk back to me.....that's the day I sell my handgun.

 

[sun rise]

I'm saying any professional who uses fake news to promote their liberal thinking needs to have their head examined. Maybe he fell for the APA story hook, line and sinker. This doctor is looney tunes. He should get treatment first ha ha.

I'm saying any professional who uses fake news to promote their conservative thinking needs to have their head examined. Maybe he fell for the Fake News Network hook, line and sinker. This doctor is looney tunes. He should get treatment first ha ha.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Are you saying you are a neutral observer? Or do you have your own biases too.

As far as I know there are several competing models for our universe and its origin. In the recent past we may have had even more. Still, there is not 100% agreement among scientists on the issue, neither have they solved the many problems with this.

I agree with you that there is not 100% agreement on universal origins. My intention was not to convince you of one differing from yours, just to point out some misrepresentation of naturalist arguments. I.e. naturalists don't believe black holes are the only singularities or that the big bang would function like a black hole, and that the difference between explosion and expansion of the universe is a thing and why. Take it for what you will.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I would think believing in the big bang, and matter expanding almost at the speed of light, and not considering that some kind of explosion would be evidence of some form of mental illness.

Explosions have a point of origin and center, the big bang didn't. Nor was the big bang exploding into anything because there was nothing outside it. We don't call filling a balloon an explosion, no matter how big or how fast it's inflated.

In any case, your bit about inferring mental illness on people with competing world views is just as toxic as when others do it to religious people. Don't do it.

 

[Dawnofhope]

But aren't religious delusions common in people with schizophrenia or some bipolar psychoses? I mean, there are patterns to when people go off the deep end, aren't there?

Religious delusions are common with people schizophrenia and bipolar. Why? Probably because religion is common. So while a religious person may have a delusion about having a special purpose in God's plan (eg being the Messiah), non-religious people will have delusions that relates to their world view. They may believe others are spying on them, talking about them, or out to get them for no good reason.

Looking for causation in regards to a medical diagnosis such as mental illness has been well considered by medical researchers and practitioners alike. A famous paper laid the framework for assisting us work out the relationship between two factors and to establish causation as opposed to confounding.

Bradford Hill criteria - Wikipedia

Edward Tufte: New ET Writings, Artworks & News

Its always memorable coming across someone who is floridly psychotic, especially if they have religious delusions. We talk to some nutty religious fundamentalist and conclude 'heck, religion really does make people mad!'. However to establish a genuinely causal association we need to carefully consider criteria the Bradford-Hill paper addresses.

A famous example of researchers getting it wrong was finding a link between women being on the contraceptive pill and getting cervical cancer. Early researchers discovered woman on the pill were much more likely to get cervical cancer than woman who weren't. Does being on the pill cause cervical cancer? No. It turned out woman on the pill were more likely to have sex with multiple partners and cervical cancer was linked to a sexually transmitted virus (an HPV).

Its good to ask questions as the OP has. Unlike some of the more metaphysical questions that get discussed on RF, the link between religious belief and mental illness can and should be studied. To date, there is no known causal association.

Sorry to rabbit on. This post is really for everyone.

 

[Curious George]

Yes. We might not understand it but we all can recognize it. What's humorous is there are all kinds on non religious mentally ill as well that seems to not be recognized. Many have highly developed "scientific theories!!!

Absolutely. I have heard about aliens, time travel, and government monitoring much more in my experience with people who are mentally ill. The difference is that religion encourages faith while science encourages testing. Consequently, we have seen more predatory religious leaders than we have scientists. I imagine this is why it is important to draw a distinction in this area at all.

 

[oldbadger]

When I talk to my cats or a reluctant fastener, it's not mental illness....usually.

I find that nattering to myself as I focus on a problem helps me to solve it, or to work better.

I know a bloke who, if he gets a report of some very rare little bird somewhere, will rush to his car, motor for hours on end, park up and struggle through all manner of terrains etc, so that he can look at this bird through his scope. He then makes a note in his diary and goes home after a weekend of discomfort, AND HE'S SO HAPPY! These folks are called TWITCHERS!

 

[David T]

Absolutely. I have heard about aliens, time travel, and government monitoring much more in my experience with people who are mentally ill. The difference is that religion encourages faith while science encourages testing. Consequently, we have seen more predatory religious leaders than we have scientists. I imagine this is why it is important to draw a distinction in this area at all.

Yes. This actually is a very serious topic way outside RF.

 

[Sunstone]

I do not understand how the notion that there can at times be a link between mental illness and religious fervor can be controversial.