Religious fervor or mental illness?

[Revoltingest]

Nice article. The only ways I can think of to tell the difference is that mental diagnoses is based on three things: does it harm others? Does it harm self? Can you take care of yourself?

Back in the day when I had herds of psychotherapist tenants, I discussed such issues (with the more
friendly & talkative ones). Those 3 criteria aren't about diagnosis, but rather whether it's worth treating.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Back in the day when I had herds of psychotherapist tenants, I discussed such issues (with the more
friendly & talkative ones). Those 3 criteria aren't about diagnosis, but rather whether it's worth treating.

Well, why would you treat someone who doesnt display any of these symptoms?

My therapist actually told me this. He says the county and insurance (and law) really want to know these three things. I dont have a mental illness but if I came in and said god spoke to me, theyd roll their eyes. If I went in the mental health services and said instead, god told me to kill X, theyd want to "talk". Then if I said I had a plan, they send me to the magistrate (like a judge) to determine if Im sane or need impatient treatement.

I accidently said I was suicidal to the wrong oeganization. They record everything and send it to the police. When I got to the therapist, we just stared at each other and she asked me why was I here. Police had to follow protocol even thouh they were confused. They couldnt let me go until someone vouched for my safety.

I was only answering questions to schedule an therapy appointment. You using are on a waiting list but I got in the next day.

Other than that, I have no technical knowledge. I just know what NOT to say around here.

Back in the day, huh? Wonders how old you are. (I keep thinking there are more youngsters on RF)

 

[Revoltingest]

Well, why would you treat someone who doesnt display any of these symptoms?

Exactly!
One can have a mental malady, eg, germophobia, but if coping with it doesn't bother one,
there's no need to treat it. I've read of advocating the same approach for physical illness.
Considering this personally, I have Dupuytrens Contracture, which has caused my left pinky
to curl up permanently. It can be fixed surgically, but as long as I can still use a keyboard to
blather away on the internet, it's not worth fixing.

My therapist actually told me this. He says the county and insurance (and law) really want to know these three things. I dont have a mental illness but if I came in and said god spoke to me, theyd roll their eyes. If I went in the mental health services and said instead, god told me to kill X, theyd want to "talk". Then if I said I had a plan, they send me to the magistrate (like a judge) to determine if Im sane or need impatient treatement.

I accidently said I was suicidal to the wrong oeganization. They record everything and send it to the police. When I got to the therapist, we just stared at each other and she asked me why was I here. Police had to follow protocol even thouh they were confused. They couldnt let me go until someone vouched for my safety.

I was only answering questions to schedule an therapy appointment. You using are on a waiting list but I got in the next day.

Other than that, I have no technical knowledge. I just know what NOT to say around here.

Back in the day, huh? Wonders how old you are. (I keep thinking there are more youngsters on RF)

It's been about 10 years since I had medical buildings.
(I'm 64 now.)

Btw, be careful what you say to whom.
Don't wanna lose your internet access.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The writer you quote has simply constructed a headline
The purpose of a headline is to draw you in to read what is below it
He has done this by including the word 'Religious'

Actually, it's something even religious clinicians struggle with, so it's hardly an anti-religious thing. Sure, some try to use it as an opportunity to pick at religion, but as I pointed out in my example even religious clinicians may fail to pick up the religious aspects of a client's behaviors.

Anyone who suddenly has problems functioning in social, work or family activities
as a result of a significant change in his or her thinking
has a mental illness

It is not often that a mental illness has a sudden onset. Of course it can, but we find many times they begin in childhood and carry on into adulthood. But it also depends on what is being examined. Some people are born with various conditions, such as autism or genetic predispositions towards depression, while others develop problems gradually after being exposed to a series of traumatic events.

A religious person who experiences sudden distress and/or problems functioning in social, work or family activities as a result of their religion is a victim of false teaching by bogus prophets who wouldn't know the Holy Ghost if it bit their ankle

That really isn't for you to decide. However, it is reality that certain religious views do serve as catalysts for trauma and the development of mental illness and distress.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

My therapist actually told me this. He says the county and insurance (and law) really want to know these three things. I dont have a mental illness but if I came in and said god spoke to me, theyd roll their eyes. If I went in the mental health services and said instead, god told me to kill X, theyd want to "talk". Then if I said I had a plan, they send me to the magistrate (like a judge) to determine if Im sane or need impatient treatement.

Here we tend to look first at impairments in daily living, if it is causing distress, and how someone copes. Harming self or others of course overlaps, but it becomes its own process if someone presents with suicidal and/or homicidal inclinations. If they do present with those, a brief assessment is done, and if there is reason to do a full assessment the assessment is staffed with a doctorate-level clinician who makes the decision if they go to an inpatient unit or not. If we need an order to detain someone, we basically send out a ton of forms which flow downstream to a judge to sign, then the police can detain a client, but if and only if there is sufficient reason to believe they pose a danger to themselves or others. But the client doesn't actually go before the judge.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Here we tend to look first at impairments in daily living, if it is causing distress, and how someone copes. Harming self or others of course overlaps, but it becomes its own process if someone presents with suicidal and/or homicidal inclinations. If they do present with those, a brief assessment is done, and if there is reason to do a full assessment the assessment is staffed with a doctorate-level clinician who makes the decision if they go to an inpatient unit or not. If we need an order to detain someone, we basically send out a ton of forms which flow downstream to a judge to sign, then the police can detain a client, but if and only if there is sufficient reason to believe they pose a danger to themselves or others. But the client doesn't actually go before the judge.

Its the magistrate. The police would escort me there. A lot people I met at the psych ward were detained outside their permission; involuntary. I signed voluntary admission so a family member got me out instead of receiving so many doctors visits. The mental health treatment in this area is awful. Everything you said else applies I was fortunate to skip all the paperwork. They sent me by ambulance so I just did billing and meds. I skipped the rest.

I opted for outpatient rather than letting the hospital decide since I wasn't in immediate danger to myself, others, and had a safe place to stay ad self care. Outside of that, they had no reason to hold me outside of protocol. Learning experience to put it lightly.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I understand dicerning what is worth treating. I had brain surgery so my big seizures are gone. I changed doctors and we did tests for another surgery but my seizures arent life threatening so we shrugged and thought not worth it. He took me off strong meds instead. Took half a year no side affects.

It's been about 10 years since I had medical buildings.(I'm 64 now.)

Nice. I live with people I their 90s. Changes my perception of old. I'm just 37.

Btw, be careful what you say to whom.
Don't wanna lose your internet access.

Haha. You can say that again!

 

[Revoltingest]

Nice. I live with people I their 90s. Changes my perception of old. I'm just 37.

Yer barely an adult!

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yer barely an adult!

Hey! They said I make them look and feel young. I look 27ish. The oldest guess I got. Must be the smile.

 

[PureX]

You just pointed to Friedrich nietztche the atheist!!!! Hey wait you said religious fever.

There was an author some years ago named F. Scott Peck, that wrote some excellent and very popular books combining religious and psychological terminology in an effort to marry the two supposedly different healing practices. For example; explaining things like "sin" and "spiritual bankruptcy" and even "demonic possession" in modern psychological terms, and then explaining in joint vernacular how these conditions may be addressed and healed.

Spiritual ministers and clinical psychologists don't need to be at odds with each other. They are both addressing common problems and use common methods of resolving them. And I think both would be far more effective if they could learn from each other, and work together as needed.

 

[atanu]

...
I know I'm skating on thin ice with many even approaching this subject, but I have a sneaking suspicion that there is a deep relationship between what we would normally consider as mental illness and 'religious fervor'.
...

Why do you think so?

 

[David T]

You have completely nailed it.

There was an author some years ago named F. Scott Peck, that wrote some excellent and very popular books combining religious and psychological terminology in an effort to marry the two supposedly different healing practices. For example; explaining things like "sin" and "spiritual bankruptcy" and even "demonic possession" in modern psychological terms, and then explaining in joint vernacular how these conditions may be addressed and healed.

Spiritual ministers and clinical psychologists don't need to be at odds with each other. They are both addressing common problems and use common methods of resolving them. And I think both would be far more effective if they could learn from each other, and work together as needed.

Sorry long muse but you sparked some thoughts for me!!

You have nailed it in totality. My purpose on RF has been to see how we relate "spiritually" to the enviroment. It's helped me develop some understanding rapidly that isn't Googible. My own neurology is a little whacky i am left handed and synesthesia so its not normal. Synesthesia is the blending of the senses and its clearly not remotely understood. So for me if I were to attend church or be locked into culture that would be very unhealthy for me. I quote John muir a lot here, a very simular person.

What I know is Dangerous is proofed out by Carl Nietztche, a minister, who dies at 35 mad, and his famous atheist son Fredrich Nietztche who was 5 years old when his father died. I think you may be able to see how Fredrichs thoughts formed from that experience. I say you maybe able, most are not able to understand what i am pointing to. What is lost on people is that fredrich originally was going to go into theology. On a side note Rudolph Steiner was his estate curator. Another very very interesting cat.

I have degree in theology. It's It worthless in application to the bible but is a perfect psych tool of one particular region of the brain self labeled "higher functioning" region and its development over the last 2,000 years in culture. That region of the brain is where all the problems are.

 

[PureX]

You have completely nailed it.

Sorry long muse but you sparked some thoughts for me!!

You have nailed it in totality. My purpose on RF has been to see how we relate "spiritually" to the enviroment. It's helped me develop some understanding rapidly that isn't Googible. My own neurology is a little whacky i am left handed and synesthesia so its not normal. Synesthesia is the blending of the senses and its clearly not remotely understood. So for me if I were to attend church or be locked into culture that would be very unhealthy for me. I quote John muir a lot here, a very simular person.

What I know is Dangerous is proofed out by Carl Nietztche, a minister, who dies at 35 mad, and his famous atheist son Fredrich Nietztche who was 5 years old when his father died. I think you may be able to see how Fredrichs thoughts formed from that experience. I say you maybe able, most are not able to understand what i am pointing to. What is lost on people is that fredrich originally was going to go into theology. On a side note Rudolph Steiner was his estate curator. Another very very interesting cat.

I have degree in theology. It's It worthless in application to the bible but is a perfect psych tool of one particular region of the brain self labeled "higher functioning" region and its development over the last 2,000 years in culture. That region of the brain is where all the problems are.

M. Scott Peck (it was M. not F.) is famous for his book entitled, "The Road Less Travelled". And it is certainly a worthy read. But he also wrote a book called "People of the Lie" that I found particularly interesting. As it defined "evil" in clinical terms, and using clinical examples. It probably does not directly relate to your own interests, but it may be tangentially related.

One of the things I found particularly interesting with Peck is that he raised psychosis up out of the separate pigeon-holes of science vs. religion and combined them under the umbrella of universal human pathology. And for me, personally, this really helped me to understand human behaviors that I could not understand, before.

 

[David T]

M. Scott Peck (it was M. not F.) is famous for his book entitled, "The Road Less Travelled". And it is certainly a worthy read. But he also wrote a book called "People of the Lie" that I found particularly interesting. As it defined "evil" in clinical terms, and using clinical examples. It probably does not directly relate to your own interests, but it may be tangentially related.

One of the things I found particularly interesting with Peck is that he raised psychosis up out of the separate pigeon-holes of science vs. religion and combined them under the umbrella of universal human pathology. And for me, personally, this really helped me to understand human behaviors that I could not understand, before.

Now we are getting to the heart of the whole topic psychosis. It sounds as if peck is very schooled up in jung and that's just a guess on my part. I also imagine in person we would have a very delightful dialog on this whole topic. I have decided music makes the most sense to me to express my views. I like pre literate pre recorded American folk, it matches John Muirs writings and MLK's i have a dream speech! There is something to that "presense" that they both allude to that is very valid. We cant turn that into a science fact or religious doctrine dogma, nature doesnt allow it curiously enough!!, even though we incessently try to. The wilderness and the wild cat. Dylans song is very cool. It's great in its original 3 cord folk form before hendrix.


“There must be some way out of here,” said the joker to the thief
“There’s too much confusion, I can’t get no relief
Businessmen, they drink my wine, plowmen dig my earth
None of them along the line know what any of it is worth”

“No reason to get excited,” the thief, he kindly spoke
“There are many here among us who feel that life is but a joke
But you and I, we’ve been through that, and this is not our fate
So let us not talk falsely now, the hour is getting late”

All along the watchtower, princes kept the view
While all the women came and went, barefoot servants, too

Outside in the distance a wildcat did growl
Two riders were approaching, the wind began to howl

And not in the original is that the last verse plays straight into the first verse. Now thats cool.

“There must be some way out of here,” said the joker to the thief
“There’s too much confusion, I can’t get no relief
Businessmen, they drink my wine, plowmen dig my earth
None of them along the line know what any of it is worth”

 

[Ponder This]

I wonder what RF people think? Can we help Dr. Morris define the boundaries between religious fervor and mental illness?

I think that it isn't actually as difficult to distinguish between mental illness and religious fervor as some people think it is. I think that we can distinguish between them in the same way that we can distinguish between Football Mania and Mental Illness. There's a difference between people who are passionate about their team and people who are mentally ill. We know that people can get take their fervor for football too far, but we don't say that people who love football and cheer for their favorite team and express themselves passionately are de facto mentally ill. There is no real connection between religious fervor and mental illness. It is merely the case that some people who are religiously fervent also happen to be mentally ill.

If someone starts calling for a witch hunt, then maybe we should take a step back and ask: is this person caught up in a hysteria? It's a reasonable question to ask. Hysteria isn't limited to the mentally ill.

 

[siti]

That is a major problem since insanity does involve hearing voices and people being told by voices to do things. This is often interpreted as religious stuff. But, should it be?! Isn't that another delusion? Hearing voices is (if I understand mental illness) just one of those things that certain illnesses cause.

Yep - that's correct and nothing I said so far suggests otherwise. However, the standard guide for assessing psychiatric disorders - DSM5 - excludes religious beliefs from its definitions of 'delusion' or 'delusional'...and yet there clearly are some people who have delusional religious beliefs - people like David Koresh for example.

Here's what I am trying to tease out of this thread - if, for example, David Koresh had delusional religious beliefs, were all the Branch Davidians also deluded? If not, why not and how and where do we draw the line?

And why is it that if I hear the voice of Julius Caesar I am deluded but if I hear the voice of Jesus Christ I am devout?

 

[siti]

I'm saying any professional who uses fake news to promote their liberal thinking needs to have their head examined.

For once I agree with you - anyone engaged in 'liberal thinking' should certainly leave fake news to the conservative experts.

 

[siti]

the link between religious belief and mental illness can and should be studied.

which is really my point.

 

[siti]

Because the writer has included the word 'religious' you go into a flap and have to read more

"go into a flap"? Er...not really...in fact I was searching for links between mental illness and religious behaviour when I found that article - I certainly did not "go into a flap" - I read it and was keen to get the views of RF people on what seems like a genuinely interesting - and possibly intractable - problem.

A religious person who experiences sudden distress and/or problems functioning in social, work or family activities as a result of their religion is a victim of false teaching by bogus prophets who wouldn't know the Holy Ghost if it bit their ankle

Now who's flapping?

 

[siti]

...relates it to human psychological needs.

...conditioning, superstition (unproven common beliefs), self fulfilled prophecy, finding origin, finding meaning to patterns to ground oneself, among others. Its not mental illness-it doesnt cause psychological issues related to OSC.

Its a mental health thing not illness.

Thanks Carlita - that seems to me to be the most balanced and sensible response so far...your whole post but I just picked out the bits that resonate most for me.