Religious fervor or mental illness?

[SomeRandom]

I still resent this implication. It means that the atheist/s considers nearly all of humanity mentally ill while he himself, themselves are not. It speaks for itself who is thus and therefore mentally ill. Frankly, that subject should be stricken from this website as inflammatory and insulting to so many. It should be reported and enforced by the moderators.

I don't think that's the case at all.
Distinguishing between genuine, let's call it, enthusiasm for one's religious beliefs and mental illness is a worthwhile endevour. One has to seperate and address those who are fervent believers and those who just so happen to have a mental illness. Because that person may be hearing voices telling them to do awful things. And may be accidentally encouraged to follow through on such actions by well meaning congregations unaware of said person's condition. Giving credence to the voices by explaining it, unintentionally, as God speaking to that person. I don't think that religious ferver equates to mental illness. Nor did I get that from the OP. But that does not mean that there can't be those suffering from mental illness becoming wrapped up in religious ferver, for whatever reason. (Upbringing, culture, family ect.)
Even discussing mental illness is a worthwhile endevour. Because you begin to peel back the stigma and dismiss such things as shame or embarrassment for those suffering. Because mental illness is not necessarily someone being hauled off in a straight jacket to the "nuthouse." Plenty of people live, for lack of a better term, normally with mental illnesses. They just happen to need a little bit of help from time to time. Whether that be coping strategies recommended by professionals, being in therapy or even pills.

 

[Revoltingest]

It means that the atheist/s considers nearly all of humanity mentally ill while he himself, themselves are not.

Has any atheist actually claimed the underlined portion?
Plenty of us are mentally ill....just look at the ones who
think Marxism is great! And I'm a Libertarian.

 

[Grandliseur]

I don't think any of the videos is genuine. If they exist, they exist in planes that don't interact with our sense organs...i.e. they can't generate optical, auditory effects etc.

Interesting viewpoint. Many people from Asia would think otherwise. I have had 4 personal experiences with spiritual entities, one was fun and witnessed by a large group of people, the other was something done to my camera, the picture I took, and the last two, I can only claim without any evidence. The picture I took was put into a Yahoo picture folder for me to have to show to people who were skeptical about it. Of course, Yahoo discontinued the service and I lost the picture and a lot of other pictures. Murphy struck again. He is a pain in the butt at times.

 

[Grandliseur]

And I don't consider you mentally ill.

Thanks.

I liked your post. I still like posts that do not cause the raising of ire. Ire should be in Ireland, not by itself.

I prefer this kind of post, quoting:

A sobbing Ms Murphy approaches Fr O’Grady after mass.

He says: “So what’s bothering you?”

She replies: “Oh, Father, I’ve terrible news. My husband passed away last night.”

The priest says: “Oh, Mary, that’s terrible. Did he have any last requests?”

"Certainly father," she replied. “He said: “Please Mary, put down that damn gun.”​

Things I can enjoy, even just an answer that serves its purpose.

 

[sayak83]

Interesting viewpoint. Many people from Asia would think otherwise. I have had 4 personal experiences with spiritual entities, one was fun and witnessed by a large group of people, the other was something done to my camera, the picture I took, and the last two, I can only claim without any evidence. The picture I took was put into a Yahoo picture folder for me to have to show to people who were skeptical about it. Of course, Yahoo discontinued the service and I lost the picture and a lot of other pictures. Murphy struck again. He is a pain in the butt at times.

I myself has never observed anything and I am skeptical on how a being who is a spirit can generate an electromagnetic field that can alter the path of photons of light. That is essential for it to have an optical effect. In such a case the being will have to be, by definition, a physical entity. It's overwhelmingly more likely a malfunction of a camera or a trick.
A spiritual entity, if it exists, can manifest itself in human consciousness superimposed on our visual qualia in which case a person sees it without it being present in the external physical world. This is more consonant with Eastern conception of spiritual beings. But then no physical device, like a camera would be able to record it's presence.

 

[Grandliseur]

I agree with you that there is not 100% agreement on universal origins. My intention was not to convince you of one differing from yours, just to point out some misrepresentation of naturalist arguments. I.e. naturalists don't believe black holes are the only singularities or that the big bang would function like a black hole, and that the difference between explosion and expansion of the universe is a thing and why. Take it for what you will.

Thank you for your answer.

I am a little bit apathetic about the inflation, explosion argument. I have studied the difference and know what the definitions are.
The way I understand the inflation, balloon effect perhaps, I can only perceive the inflation to be exactly as a balloon as it grow bigger. It grows bigger usually from being inflated by air. Likewise, I do not see the inflation of the early universe happening without it somehow drawing matter out continually of its singularity until the unknown process had run its course. I don't see all the matter existing at the point in time inflation begins. I like physics, but as a lay person. I also see the matter antimatter problem as something scientists struggle with. Since I think God behind the creation of the universe, I don't see a problem. Studying how and why things happened is still an option.

 

[Grandliseur]

Plenty of people live, for lack of a better term, normally with mental illnesses. They just happen to need a little bit of help from time to time. Whether that be coping strategies recommended by professionals, being in therapy or even pills.

That's for sure. Extreme stress can put anyone over the line. If then the individual does something horrible, the line is crossed mentally too, and the damage may be beyond fixing.

I wouldn't be surprised if it is a continual balancing act going on in the brain, and that under normal circumstances most do not loose their balance, but some do. Due to physical abuse I endured as a young boy, I have always had an extreme reaction to people trying hurt me physically. I can feel how and when my balancing act - gets stressed out. So, while Christian, I am a believer in violence. It really works. If people know you are a bad-azz, they keep their distance if they contemplated otherwise.

Fortunately, I live in a rather peaceful environment, country. That helps me relax on those issues. This kind of damage has hurt many depending on the kind of abuse they might have suffered. Then there is just natural illness and age related problems. This a great many suffer from.

 

[Grandliseur]

Plenty of us are mentally ill....just look at the ones who
think Marxism is great! And I'm a Libertarian.

Indeed. I have problems with anger issues. This is all a Christian needs, right!

Could you define your 'Libertarian,' please.

 

[Grandliseur]

I myself has never observed anything and I am skeptical on how a being who is a spirit can generate an electromagnetic field that can alter the path of photons of light. That is essential for it to have an optical effect. In such a case the being will have to be, by definition, a physical entity. It's overwhelmingly more likely a malfunction of a camera or a trick.

Interesting concept.

My concept is quite different. Perspective again colors our beliefs. Since my beliefs are flavored by the Bible, our basic perspectives naturally are different. Briefly, the following is my reality:

In the beginning before creation happened, God existed in his own reality. He began his creation by creating beings that may or may not exist in his reality, but they do not exist in ours.
The next step was the creation of our universe. What this means as I understand it is that his reality is real, has elements as our universe has elements, periodic table. However, these elements are not the same as ours and cannot be translated directly, but in both realities, the elements are real.
Thus angles, spiritual beings, whatever you like to call them, have real bodies, elemental bodies of their realm.

Our universe and our periodic table is not of their realm. Thus we have bodies made of elements from our periodic table. As a supercomputer has super users and down below other common users, the top echelon can see what the ones below might be working on, but the ones at the bottom are clueless as to what the top ones are working on or with. In this way, I understand that the spiritual beings have full access to both realms, like a user has access to a virtual world, but a person in the virtual world has no access to the user commonly.

In this perspective, the spiritual beings can do things that affect our physical world as they like, within the limits imposed on them.
We on the other hand can do nothing to directly affect them.​

 

[oldbadger]

Indeed. I have problems with anger issues. This is all a Christian needs, right!

Could you define your 'Libertarian,' please.

A definition of @Revoltingest libertarianism?
Let me help...... totally nuts ... absolutely daft.

Imagine a baby Revolting in nappy, a contrary, difficult, spoilt kid screaming because he wants more, and knowing that mummy will give in. There you go. Libertarian.

Actually, that's quite sane, come to think of it.

 

[A Kings Assassin]

I doubt of there's any real link between religion and mental illness.

I was a psychiatry resident for 7 years before moving into general practice where I have been working for the last 10 years. There are plenty of mental health problems in general practice and some researchers estimate that 1/3 of people that come to consult with a GP have a major mental health disorder. Conducting a proper psychiatric evaluation takes into a account not just a persons symptoms but includes a thorough history that considers any recent stressors or change in circumstances, medical problems, past psychiatric health issues, family history of mental disorders, drug and alcohol issues, their current social situation including living arrangements, work, and recreational activities, their upbringing and relationship with key family members including parents and siblings, and of course any religious or spiritual beliefs. A properly conducted psychiatric assessment usually takes up to about an hour. If this is done properly and not rushed by a competent, experienced psychiatrist then it would be very unusual to confuse religious beliefs for a mental disorder as your paper suggests.

Historically, psychiatrists have avoided clinically diagnosing people as delusional just because they have false beliefs. There needs to be other requirements.

Often people have ideas and attitudes about life and that are just wrong, whether its imagining they are more or less talented than others, having ideas that make them a lot of money, or they are going to find perfect love. Delusional is not the same as illogical or irrational.

Religion or spiritual beliefs have been part of practically any community from the beginning of human history. Its easy to label one group of people with particular beliefs as 'delusional' simply because we don't like them. That's the type of prejudice many of us can have to some extent and medical doctors need to avoid letting prejudice affect clinical decision making.

Massive numbers of religious people are functional. They are part of families, maintain work, and pay taxes. We would avoid classifying functional people as delusional.

Neuroscience has failed to differentiate pathology in the brains of most religious people so there's no real scientific evidence linking religion with mental illness.

I share this article as another pespective.

Why Religion Is Not Delusion | HuffPost

I'd agree with you Adrian 100% , whether or not its common knowledge but mental illness on the whole is something that is in truth incurable is it not , just a very very kind hearted person / people using trial and error when it comes to the actual medication procedure until with luck some sort of state of resolution is achieved and what with every persons life and experiences being different to assume what helps one will help another no matter how the similarities may appear on face value would be extremely presumptuous . Once more , in my opinion in regards to Religion and my earlier comment on CON .. Science , my point would still remain that even in regards to history , prophets and what we've been kind of programmed to believe the only one who with authority has actually spoken to God as in God was his son was it not . I know that in genesis and creation you could debate Adam amongst several others may have but that's where I think time , being what time is in how we again have been programmed to believe plays a big factor on how these facts are possibly perceived .

 

[Grandliseur]

A definition of @Revoltingest libertarianism?
Let me help...... totally nuts ... absolutely daft.

Imagine a baby Revolting in nappy, a contrary, difficult, spoilt kid screaming because he wants more, and knowing that mummy will give in. There you go. Libertarian.

Actually, that's quite sane, come to think of it.

Your post is so funny. An oxymoron perhaps. (please check the dictionary if you don't know the word, no offense intended.)

 

[oldbadger]

Your post is so funny. An oxymoron perhaps. (please check the dictionary if you don't know the word, no offense intended.)

Oxymoron? Oh yeah, them. There's a few of them living in our street!

 

[Grandliseur]

Oxymoron? Oh yeah, them. There's a few of them living in our street!

I hope you checked the dictionary. ha ha. I might be one of those on occasion. What occasion is as yet undefined.

 

[oldbadger]

Oxymoron? Oh yeah, them. There's a few of them living in our street!

I was borrowing Dicken's delightful character Mrs Mallaprops.

 

[sayak83]

Interesting concept.

My concept is quite different. Perspective again colors our beliefs. Since my beliefs are flavored by the Bible, our basic perspectives naturally are different. Briefly, the following is my reality:

In the beginning before creation happened, God existed in his own reality. He began his creation by creating beings that may or may not exist in his reality, but they do not exist in ours.
The next step was the creation of our universe. What this means as I understand it is that his reality is real, has elements as our universe has elements, periodic table. However, these elements are not the same as ours and cannot be translated directly, but in both realities, the elements are real.
Thus angles, spiritual beings, whatever you like to call them, have real bodies, elemental bodies of their realm.

Our universe and our periodic table is not of their realm. Thus we have bodies made of elements from our periodic table. As a supercomputer has super users and down below other common users, the top echelon can see what the ones below might be working on, but the ones at the bottom are clueless as to what the top ones are working on or with. In this way, I understand that the spiritual beings have full access to both realms, like a user has access to a virtual world, but a person in the virtual world has no access to the user commonly.

In this perspective, the spiritual beings can do things that affect our physical world as they like, within the limits imposed on them.
We on the other hand can do nothing to directly affect them.​

If you look at the video game analogy, what is done is that a player controls one of the simulated characters. We cannot enter directly into the video game reality. Thus within the video game universe, all bodies continue to be of the same kind of reality.

 

[William Milverton]

You have asked :-
"How Do You Distinguish between Religious Fervor and Mental Illness?"

Fervor is dictionary defined as a strong feeling of excitement and enthusiasm.

A classification of 'mental illness' requires 2 things :-
Significant changes in thinking, emotion and/or behavior AND
distress and/or problems functioning in social, work or family activities

The writer you quote has simply constructed a headline
The purpose of a headline is to draw you in to read what is below it
He has done this by including the word 'Religious'

If the headline was; "How Do You Distinguish between Fervor and Mental Illness?" you would quickly answer the question
Because the writer has included the word 'religious' you go into a flap
and have to read more

Anyone who suddenly has problems functioning in social, work or family activities
as a result of a significant change in his or her thinking
has a mental illness

Jesus Christianity is a religion of giving unconditional love, even to those who despitefully use you
Jesus most important commandments at the Sermon On The Mount include; "Do not resist evil" and "Agree with thy adversary" and "Do not judge" (about anything. At all. Ever)
Being pleasant, loving and non-confrontational does not cause problems in society

A religious person who experiences sudden distress and/or problems functioning in social, work or family activities as a result of their religion
is a victim of false teaching by bogus prophets who wouldn't know the Holy Ghost if it bit their ankle

 

[Grandliseur]

If you look at the video game analogy, what is done is that a player controls one of the simulated characters. We cannot enter directly into the video game reality. Thus within the video game universe, all bodies continue to be of the same kind of reality.

Well, I used this analogy though obviously imperfect. What my belief system tells me is that is a reality that works like mathematics in a way. In this we have a set within which we have another subset. Some have access to the whole set (spirit beings), while others only have access to the subset, humans.

I know you don't share the same religious perspective, but the following is what we have:

After man was created, all angels had the right and ability to 'clothe' themselves in human form. When not 'clothed' they could not be seen by humans, but they could still act out in our physical world since they have full access.

When some came down to earth to live here, they violated the will of God. Some took human women for wives and had hybrid offspring, the Nephilim.

To make a long story short. At the deluge, these now fallen angels were given restrictions. One group was put in prison for later judgment. The others were permitted under restrictions to continue serving their new master, the devil or satan. One of these restrictions is that they must not procreate with mankind. Since they rule this world, if they can 'clothe' themselves is unknown. I would think they can as long as they stay within the strict restrictions given by God. If they step over the line, they get zapped, dead, gone, erased. However, they are permitted to act as ghosts though they aren't spirits of the dead, for the dead are no longer.(this is part of the original lie) They can influence and make things happen on a physical level. That is not forbidden. However, they cannot as with Job touch the righteous unless given permission which is then perhaps restricted to some level that is in respect to the question being sought answered. (At first only Job's possessions were at stake, not his person)

Thus angels have the ability to enter the video game at will, but due to prior violations, this is now being supervised and controlled so that none can violate specific restrictions set on this usage.
​

I don' expect you to agree, but this is how I understand how things work.

 

[Revoltingest]

Indeed. I have problems with anger issues. This is all a Christian needs, right!

Could you define your 'Libertarian,' please.

This is us.....
https://www.lp.org/
We have a perfect winning streak in the presidential
elections.....always ensuring someone else wins.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Discussions in another thread prompt me to post this. First, a link to a Scientific American article addressing the question: How Do You Distinguish between Religious Fervor and Mental Illness?

I know I'm skating on thin ice with many even approaching this subject, but I have a sneaking suspicion that there is a deep relationship between what we would normally consider as mental illness and 'religious fervor'.

The author of the article concludes "we need more to help guide us through the difficult circumstances in which mental health care and religion collide."

I wonder what RF people think? Can we help Dr. Morris define the boundaries between religious fervor and mental illness?

Nice article. The only ways I can think of to tell the difference is that mental diagnoses is based on three things: does it harm others? Does it harm self? Can you take care of yourself?

If these criteria isn't met via consistency and intensity (thinking of killing is fine. Doing it is not.) its not considered a mental illness. While eating concentrated bread sounds weird the Fact is no Catholic says accidents are Jesus Christ only the substance. Thinking one consumes Jesus is different than what mental health looks at: does the ACT of consuming because of thought/belief cause harm to others, self, prevent self-care (OSC).

As for delusions, I like the book Why We Believe in Gods Andy Thomson. It talks about different common beliefs and relates it to human psychological needs. Its a nice book for the strong of heart and it doesn't focus on evolution and atheism.

I'd say its not delusion but conditioning, superstition (unproven common beliefs), self fulfilled prophecy, finding origin, finding meaning to patterns to ground oneself, among others. Its not mental illness-it doesnt cause psychological issues related to OSC.

As for Scientology and JW and some charismatic highly animated non denominational Christians may have a point in their actions but they are of sound mind. They don't represent religious psychosis as a whole.

Its a mental health thing not illness. If we can admit that I feel our faith would be stronger. If not, the delusion is not being able to see pass ones own nose; but, that's with anything not just religion. Its mental illness when delusions hit OSC. Some religious I'd question but not religion as a whole.