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"Religious Liberty" ?

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
You want me to look up a sterile dictionary term when what is practiced in reality is entirely something else? Socialism in practice has everything to do with the loss of freedom because it is about gaining power through the establishment of a welfare state. People see some short term benefit passed off as charity when it has absolutely nothing to do charity because true charity is voluntary. So they let those who lust for power introduce socialism because they perceive it as helping the poor. Yet the condition of the poor never really changes. It is all smoke and mirrors.

Hmmm, still pretty abstract. Can you give examples of current socialist practices that mirror what you're claiming here? Would you include public infrastructure as being socialistic? Highways and bridges for example? How about a healthcare system like Canada's?
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Hey Tlaloc,

Are there a core set of morals you think everyone can follow? I'm a fan of the UN Declaration on Human Rights, would you be willing to support those human rights?
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
Don't hospitals need government-issued licenses to operate, though? Don't they have a number of duties that they must comply with in order to continue operating (fire safety, higiene parameters, emergency department attendance levels, in-house parking space, etc)? Don't they have to be ready to attend when there are disasters, and don't they have certain attending duties and privileges which must be monitored and licensed by the authorities (for instance, ambulances are not optional even in privately owned hospitals, and must be ready to operate in all weather conditions and operated by properly qualified drivers)?
They do Luis. Its called EMTALA. It means that anyone who comes to the ER must be stabilized and after they are stable, if they have no insurance or for any other reason the hospital chooses, they can be transferred to a charity hospital. However, the first hospital does have the right to not treat, other than to stabilize the patient.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
I noticed 'Shadow Wolf' made a comment about tolerance. Tolerance is one thing, endorsement is another. Homosexuality is tolerated because it will exist regardless of wishful thinking to the contrary.

I'm on dialysis and my nurse happens to be a lesbian. I don't think she knows that I know this but she has given it away once by using the word 'partner' in reference to her companion and on another occasion when I was in her office, I saw a picture of her with her significant other. I have not once mentioned it to her. I happen to like her a lot. She's a good nurse and we get along well. That constitutes tolerance, though that sounds like a harsh word for the amicable relationship she and I have.

But that is not endorsement of her as a homosexual. I'm endorsing her as a nurse. For a doctor to perform a sex change operation would be a form of endorsement of homosexuality and the doctor should have the freedom to opt out if that goes against his convictions. I think it is a form of endorsement to take the risk of treating someone with AIDS. A doctor should be able to opt out of taking that risk. I think the notion that just because someone has a medical degree, they somehow 'owe' other people something. When did that happen? What would be the justification for making a slave out of the doctor?
First of all, the word partner is now used by lots of folks because it is more ubiquitous and does not offend anyone, whether gay or straight. Second, a doctor is bound by his or her oath. That can include treating anyone with AIDS or HIV or any other disease. A doctor has to specialize to perform surgeries. A cardiovascular surgeon would not do a hip transplant, for example. A nurse can refuse to take care of a patient on moral grounds, for example, a woman having an abortion BUT he or she can ONLY do that if there are other nurses available to care for that patient. If there is no one else, they must do it owing to their own oaths. There is no exception and refusal will result in losing one's license. As an example, I had to ask someone else to take care of a child in the PACU who had been severely sodomized and had to have reconstructive surgery. As a survivor of rape, I could not emotionally care for her but if there was no other choice, I would have had to. And I would have. A doctor has as much obligation as I do and should not refuse a patient based on their disease. Its against the oaths. Period.
 

ether-ore

Active Member
Hmmm, still pretty abstract. Can you give examples of current socialist practices that mirror what you're claiming here? Would you include public infrastructure as being socialistic? Highways and bridges for example? How about a healthcare system like Canada's?

You're kidding, right? We have here in the US a welfare state with redistribution of wealth and socialized medicine. With the open border policy, illegal immigrants have access to the welfare system without being citizens. The federal government's being involved in welfare at all is contrary to the original constitution. If anything welfare should have remained a state's issue. The federal government was never supposed to have the degree of power that it has. Then along come the 'progressives' beginning with Woodrow Wilson, making changes to get more power for the federal government and introducing the beginnings of socialism which has snowballed ever since. Look at what redistribution of wealth has done wherever it is applied... Detroit, Greece. The EU is in a crisis because of socialism. The Soviet Union fell because of it. The only difference between socialism and communism is that communism is a pure dictatorship and it seems that is where Obama, with his executive orders, wants to take us.

Also, you're being ridiculous asking about roads and bridges. The interstate highway system is a legitimate function of the federal government, with all other roads under responsibility of the several states.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
You want me to look up a sterile dictionary term when what is practiced in reality is entirely something else? Socialism in practice has everything to do with the loss of freedom because it is about gaining power through the establishment of a welfare state. People see some short term benefit passed off as charity when it has absolutely nothing to do charity because true charity is voluntary. So they let those who lust for power introduce socialism because they perceive it as helping the poor. Yet the condition of the poor never really changes. It is all smoke and mirrors.
You don't think that socialism is not already in practice here in the US? It is, I assure you. Examples abound but just one for one. A couple in Ohio has land in a rural area. Land they OWN. Yet, because they chose to do with that land what they wanted, they are being fined $1000 for not mowing their lawn. How is this not Big Brother dictating what we can and cannot do? How is having laws based on your faith not dictating how we can live? It was not that long ago that interracial couples could not marry. It was not that long ago the abortion was illegal based on your Bible. And even now, if I chose to put up a Buddhist symbol on my own home, my HOA would tell me to remove it due to the predominance of Christians on my road, keeping in mind I live in the country on a dead end road in the woods. And keeping in mind that this is my home, my land and my barn. This, because people of your ilk want their faith to run the lives of others. What is this, if not socialism?
 

ether-ore

Active Member
I don't know what you are talking about.
Christianity is compatible with Socialism.

I'm assuming you are basing that remark on the New Testament passages which talk about the members of the church 'having all things in common'? The fundamental difference between socialism and the united order under the law of consecration is that involvement in the united order is voluntary. Under socialism it s not voluntary. In the united order, the individual is deeded his stewardship making it his private property. The goal of socialism is to ultimately establish communism where all property is owned by the state and there is no private property.

So socialism has nothing in common with Christianity which has established a united order on several occasions.
 

ether-ore

Active Member
You don't think that socialism is not already in practice here in the US? It is, I assure you. Examples abound but just one for one. A couple in Ohio has land in a rural area. Land they OWN. Yet, because they chose to do with that land what they wanted, they are being fined $1000 for not mowing their lawn. How is this not Big Brother dictating what we can and cannot do? How is having laws based on your faith not dictating how we can live? It was not that long ago that interracial couples could not marry. It was not that long ago the abortion was illegal based on your Bible. And even now, if I chose to put up a Buddhist symbol on my own home, my HOA would tell me to remove it due to the predominance of Christians on my road, keeping in mind I live in the country on a dead end road in the woods. And keeping in mind that this is my home, my land and my barn. This, because people of your ilk want their faith to run the lives of others. What is this, if not socialism?

I absolutely agree that socialism is running rampant in our culture. But you are preaching to the choir in talking about home owners associations and their propensity to behave like a socialist dictatorship. I was under one of those once and I understand that the claim is that they want to protect property values. But they do indeed dictate to you concerning your property and each one has its own set of rules based on the dominant vote in its meetings. I hate, detest and am outraged at HOAs. I will never live under one of those again. I have to say however, that the HOA i was under would not have allowed religious symbols at all on my property. It wasn't just Buddhist or Christian symbols. It was all things like that. No nativity scenes... nothing. So while I don't blame you for being upset about it, I do question that your HOA was picking on you because of some Christian majority or that they were singling out Buddhism.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
I absolutely agree that socialism is running rampant in our culture. But you are preaching to the choir in talking about home owners associations and their propensity to behave like a socialist dictatorship. I was under one of those once and I understand that the claim is that they want to protect property values. But they do indeed dictate to you concerning your property and each one has its own set of rules based on the dominant vote in its meetings. I hate, detest and am outraged at HOAs. I will never live under one of those again. I have to say however, that the HOA i was under would not have allowed religious symbols at all on my property. It wasn't just Buddhist or Christian symbols. It was all things like that. No nativity scenes... nothing. So while I don't blame you for being upset about it, I do question that your HOA was picking on you because of some Christian majority or that they were singling out Buddhism.
Question all you like but this propensity to have only the one faith represented has long been a part of your and my culture. Christianity has dictated this country for far too long. I mean no disrespect but denying that will not change that it is true. I don't know where you live but I have traveled this country extensively, having lived in almost every state there is and trust me when I say the preponderance of churches ...Christian churches...sometimes left me speechless. And if you don;t think they have a direct effect on the people of that community, you are only fooling yourself. Laws are still based on Christian ideology. There is no doubt of that. Presidential candidates run their campaigns on religious ideals. This one or that one goes to this or that church and this country will NOT elect someone who does not espouse Christianity. Look at the hoopla over Obama and right wing pundits screaming that he is Muslim when that is a boldfaced lie. I don't like HOA either and technically, we don't have one here on my road. However, that doesn't change the fact that my neighbors will and do tell others how their lawns will be manicured or about how we set out our trash. And btw...there is NO HOA for that couple in Ohio. Its a township only and they are the ones telling this couple how they can live their lives.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I don't know what you are talking about.
Christianity is compatible with Socialism.
Selling all of your possessions and giving the money to the poor is a pretty good indication Jesus was what we call a socialist. Of course the term wasn't around then, but it's the same practice.
Yet the condition of the poor never really changes. It is all smoke and mirrors.
So the poor receiving funds for food, being able to get a higher education, receive health care, and being in a system that helps them obtain upward mobility doesn't work? What about police and fire fighters? Are the roads, libraries, and schools all failures?
 

ether-ore

Active Member
Question all you like but this propensity to have only the one faith represented has long been a part of your and my culture. Christianity has dictated this country for far too long. I mean no disrespect but denying that will not change that it is true. I don't know where you live but I have traveled this country extensively, having lived in almost every state there is and trust me when I say the preponderance of churches ...Christian churches...sometimes left me speechless. And if you don;t think they have a direct effect on the people of that community, you are only fooling yourself. Laws are still based on Christian ideology. There is no doubt of that. Presidential candidates run their campaigns on religious ideals. This one or that one goes to this or that church and this country will NOT elect someone who does not espouse Christianity. Look at the hoopla over Obama and right wing pundits screaming that he is Muslim when that is a boldfaced lie. I don't like HOA either and technically, we don't have one here on my road. However, that doesn't change the fact that my neighbors will and do tell others how their lawns will be manicured or about how we set out our trash. And btw...there is NO HOA for that couple in Ohio. Its a township only and they are the ones telling this couple how they can live their lives.
I don't deny that Christianity is the dominant faith in the US and that quite naturally, as a consequence, laws are made which conform to the Judeo-Christian ethic. The people who founded this country were mostly if not all Christian who came here to find religious freedom. For the most part, religious freedom is extended to all faiths. You may not know, but my particular brand of Christianity is that I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormon). If you know anything about our history, you will know that there was an extermination order put out on us by the State of Missouri in 1838 which was not rescinded until 1976. So I do understand some of what you are saying. But most of your "outrage" is simply because Christianity is dominant (at least for now) without explaining exactly which tenets of Christianity you have issue with. What moral tenets of Christianity do you take issue with?

Are you referring to that couple in St Albans, Ohio and the issue with their lawn? If so, then your rant overlooks the fact that it is the couple that are Christians. It is for reasons other than religious that the township wants the lawn mowed. So your complaint about Christians doesn't seem to apply here.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
The federal government was never supposed to have the degree of power that it has. Then along come the 'progressives' beginning with Woodrow Wilson,
Actually, Woodrow Wilson was one of the last of the progressive presidents.
The EU is in a crisis because of socialism.
Many places in the EU are doing just fine. Germany, for instance, is doing great and German citizens do not pay for college tuition.
With the open border policy, illegal immigrants have access to the welfare system without being citizens.
No, they don't.
The federal government's being involved in welfare at all is contrary to the original constitution.
The world the constitution was written in no longer exists; it's folly to try to keep to the "original intent" when many things have changed dramatically since. It's also folly to put such emphasis on the original intent of those who wrote "all men are created equal" and who also owned slaves and who felt politics was not a proper place for women.
But, since you bring it up, promoting the general welfare of the citizens is in the constitution.

The only difference between socialism and communism is that communism is a pure dictatorship and it seems that is where Obama, with his executive orders, wants to take us.
If you think Obama is a communist, you obviously have no idea what communism is.
The goal of socialism is to ultimately establish communism where all property is owned by the state and there is no private property.
If you'd take the time to educate yourself, you will find that communism, which has the root word of community, promotes communal ownership. Of course there are the authoritarian types such as Stalinist communism, but many communist philosophies, including Marxism, are left-winged, and some of them, such as Marxism, have the ultimate goal of being stateless.
So socialism has nothing in common with Christianity which has established a united order on several occasions.
Where? When? Even Machiavelli wrote that Christians were fighting against each other.
The people who founded this country were mostly if not all Christian who came here to find religious freedom.
The Founding Fathers and Framers were largely deists. Some of them were Christian, but many of them believed Jesus was nothing more than a teacher of morality - they denied there was anything divine about Jesus, they did not view him as the son of god, and they did not accept him as a savior.
 

Mohammad Nur Syamsu

Well-Known Member
I forced myself to watch the GOP debate, argh.

At one point Cruz stood up for “religious liberty”. While I’m not sure, I’m guessing he’s referring to situations in which a religious organization is taking exception to being forced to pay for coverages under Obama-care that it (the organization), doesn’t believe in. Things like contraception and abortions.

The Eternal Word TV Network (EWTN), is suing the government over this issue of “religious liberty”...

http://www.religiousliberties.org/faq.asp

Does the EWTN have a legal leg (or for that matter a moral leg), to stand on? (I hope not!)

How is it normal to force people to help with killing foetuses?
 

ether-ore

Active Member
Selling all of your possessions and giving the money to the poor is a pretty good indication Jesus was what we call a socialist. Of course the term wasn't around then, but it's the same practice.


I assume the passage you are referring to is Matthew 19:21: "Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me." The thing you are overlooking is that there was no implicit threat on the part of Jesus to suggest that force would be used to take from the man to give to the poor. Jesus' "request" was that the man do it voluntarily and Jesus was disappointed that the man declined. But no threat of force was ever contemplated by Jesus. So here again is the difference between socialism and the united order; that of one being voluntary and the other not.

So the poor receiving funds for food, being able to get a higher education, receive health care, and being in a system that helps them obtain upward mobility doesn't work? What about police and fire fighters? Are the roads, libraries, and schools all failures?
[/QUOTE]

You are conflating legitimate functions of government with those that are not for one thing. And for another, the poor receiving these things is not at issue. It is how the funds are obtained that is the problem. Socialism wants to define charity as forcibly taking from one group and giving to another. The united order (and its temporary substitute: tithing) defines charity as voluntary giving to the poor.
 

David M

Well-Known Member
No matter how you cut it, using the state to force people to do business against their conscious is authoritarian. I don't care if you think their conscious is informed by bigotry.

Its only authoritarian if the state also forces the person to be in business. If you want to run a business that serves the public then you can't discriminate by sex, religion, ethnicity etc. So by running a business you have given tacit acceptance to the laws that govern such interactions, if you don't want to follow the law then don't run a business that deals with the public.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I forced myself to watch the GOP debate, argh.

At one point Cruz stood up for “religious liberty”. While I’m not sure, I’m guessing he’s referring to situations in which a religious organization is taking exception to being forced to pay for coverages under Obama-care that it (the organization), doesn’t believe in. Things like contraception and abortions.

The Eternal Word TV Network (EWTN), is suing the government over this issue of “religious liberty”...

http://www.religiousliberties.org/faq.asp

Does the EWTN have a legal leg (or for that matter a moral leg), to stand on? (I hope not!)
There have been small groups of pacifist Quakers (and probably other groups) protesting for years about being forced to pay for war. I wonder if Ted Cruz would support their right to channel their tax money away from the Department of Defense.
 

David M

Well-Known Member
A doctor, by the very definition and nature of their job, put themselves at risk for contracting many different illnesses, viruses, diseases, and anything and everything else that is contagious. If they don't want to accept those risks, they shouldn't be a doctor.

100% Agreed.

If you choose to do a job then you don't get to pick and choose which of the basic attributes of that job you can refuse to perform. If you want to become a doctor then you accept that you will treat anyone in medical need, a pharmacist must dispense all legally prescribed medicines. If they want to refuse then either don't choose that career in the first place or quit and do something else.
 

Mohammad Nur Syamsu

Well-Known Member
It's clear that the national feeling is currently very limited. The government doesn't have much of any emotive credibility anymore to make laws.

We should look at this in terms of if there were no government, and then somebody decided to make a government. The catholic church already governs the lives of people, how would this government then have the right to force people whatever?

The reality is that the national feeling was much destroyed in the 70's of the last century. Since then socialists have placed unlimited demands on government through manipulation of the courts, ruining the emotional basis of the government. A government which has little emotional basis, can only make very limited laws. There is little "we" left on the national level, of any nation. There is "we" among catholics, they still have emotional credibility.
 

ether-ore

Active Member
Actually, Woodrow Wilson was one of the last of the progressive presidents.

Wrong!

Many places in the EU are doing just fine. Germany, for instance, is doing great and German citizens do not pay for college tuition.

I'm referring to teh EU as a whole. It is in trouble.

No, they don't.

Yes, they have.

The world the constitution was written in no longer exists; it's folly to try to keep to the "original intent" when many things have changed dramatically since. It's also folly to put such emphasis on the original intent of those who wrote "all men are created equal" and who also owned slaves and who felt politics was not a proper place for women.
But, since you bring it up, promoting the general welfare of the citizens is in the constitution.


The original intent was to preserve the union by maintaining the checks and balances between the branches of government which have now been largely eliminated. It was the checks and balances which protected the liberties of the people. The only thing that has changed is the rejection of the required morality necessary to maintain a free republic, because as the founding fathers recognized, the constitution will work for no other than a moral people.

That the founding fathers had flaws does not negate the fact that "all men are created equal". "Promoting" the general welfare is quite different from "providing" it. To promote is to aid in organizing or to encourage in acceptance through publicity. That has nothing to do with outright providing.

If you think Obama is a communist, you obviously have no idea what communism is.


I said that is the direction that Obama is taking us... that is all. But you are right about one thing, I do not trust the man.

If you'd take the time to educate yourself, you will find that communism, which has the root word of community, promotes communal ownership. Of course there are the authoritarian types such as Stalinist communism, but many communist philosophies, including Marxism, are left-winged, and some of them, such as Marxism, have the ultimate goal of being stateless.

And you think this is a good thing? <I smile at your insults concerning my level of education>

Where? When? Even Machiavelli wrote that Christians were fighting against each other.

The City of Enoch before the flood, The City of Salem under Melchizedek, The United Order under Peter and lastly, the United Order under Joseph Smith. The latter two didn't last because the people weren't ready for it, so the law of tithing was (and is) used instead until the millennium, when it will be re-instituted.

The Founding Fathers and Framers were largely deists. Some of them were Christian, but many of them believed Jesus was nothing more than a teacher of morality - they denied there was anything divine about Jesus, they did not view him as the son of god, and they did not accept him as a savior.

That was a very good recitation of revisionist history.
 

jonathan180iq

Well-Known Member
Since the "Religious Liberty" movement is based on the idea that the secular world can't interfere with the religious world, including among other things letting those pesky secular laws interfere with religious motivations and practice, then the very obvious flipside of this argument is that religious beliefs should have no authority whatsoever on the public, right?

That means that religious beliefs can't be a platform for legislating anything.
That means that religious beliefs can't interfere in anyway with the wants, needs, desires, and behaviors of the non-religious.

I mean, in the spirit of equality, this is the only fair application of the "Religious Liberty" movement isn't it?
 
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