Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Which would explain the backpacks! :yes: So corporate.It's so hard to balance them across the handlebars.
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Religious proselyting with no Stile.
- Thread starter *Paul*
- Start date
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I don't care what it is that somebody is trying to ram down my throat. I'm going to choke and gag either way.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Wow! That's just incomprehensible to me. Why would anyone claim to believe something he didn't really believe? I just don't get that. I can't even imagine telling someone that I worshipped Jesus Christ if I didn't! I can't conceive of telling someone I believe He came to earth and allowed Himself to be tortured to death to pay for my sins if I really didn't! I can't even fathom telling someone that I believe He overcame death and actually rose on the third day after having been crucified and reigns on the right hand of His Father if I didn't believe it! Why on earth would someone pretend to believe those things if they didn't? That's absolutely crazy!
nutshell
Well-Known Member
But, don't you know, Katz - It's a different Jesus Christ.
Christians: JC is God - the Creator from the Beginning
Mormons: JC is one of the Godhead - he was part of the Creation, but was first created by God (a separate being)
Christians: JC died for me. We are saved by His grace - a free gift to those who read the Word and accept Him.
Mormons: JC died for me. We can receive His grace after all we can do.
Obviously, there are differences. It all comes down to how one defines the word "Christian." I think I now realize the confusion that could exist if the missionaries and investigators are using different definitions of "Christian."
*Paul*
Jesus loves you
In my own experience first of all I told them what I was yet they still wanted to come back the next week, they left me with a book to read and it related the event where Joseph Smith was visited by the two personages and it quotes them as telling joseph smith not to join the other churches but it deliberatly skips out or snip out the part where it says that all their creeds are an abomination.
They wear name tags with half of their name on and like you to address them as elder so and so even though they are not your elder.
Well it's a bit more personal than that because a friend was involved, they found me offensive and I was later accused of inviting them around so I could tear down their religion. Even though I was extremely friendly and courteous and simply defended my beliefs from the attack they were under. This was the third visit from missionaries to my house even though the first time the person in my house sent them away with an earbashing of some sort.
I would love the missionaries to call at my house, I would love one of your apostles to come to my house but I want honesty, they are there to tell me that what I believe is wrong and that I need to be baptised under their church, that the gospel I believe is incomplete and why, that the bible is mistranslated and where. Then we can address the real issues instead of this constant kind of method where you just talk about the things you agree on and find these guys so friendly that you wouldn't mind coming to one of their services and slowly wean you in.
Even my mormon friend said to me that they don't tell people that much at forst but just the very basics (the milk) until they are ready for the next level of understanding so to speak.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I see. You told them what you were... Which is what? A Baptist? I guess I'm not following you here. Are you saying the fact that you are a Baptist would be reason for them not to want to return? Yes, I'm familiar with the pamphlet they gave you. It's called "The Testimony of the Prophet Joseph Smith," isn't it? Joseph Smith's History is a bit too long to present in its entirety in pamphlet form, and yet you didn't like the fact that the pamphlet left out something you would obviously have found even more offensive.
Oh come on now, *Paul*, you can't possibly be serious. If I were to go to a Protestant Church and were to be introduced to the pastor as Reverend Jones, I wouldn't give a second thought to responding by saying, "How do you do, Reverend Jones." It wouldn't even occur to me to think, "Well, he's not my reverend. I really ought to be able to call him 'Bob'!" Missionaries are elders in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Anyone in any religion who holds a title in that religion has the right to be addressed by that title. When President Hinckley (currently the LDS Prophet) addresses the head of the Roman Catholic diocese here in Salt Lake City, he calls him "Bishop Wester" even though he clearly isn't his bishop. Bishop Wester addresses Gordon B. Hinckley as "President Hinckley." I can't ever remember hearing something quite so silly as, "He's not my elder!
How precisely did the Mormon missionaries "attack" your beliefs?
So, you would love the missionaries to call at your house. Are you saying that they refuse to do so? Could that be because they don't particularly want another "earbashing of some sort"?
Well, I'd like one of our Apostles to come to my house, too, but I'm afraid they're too busy. What I'm confused about is why you would love one of our Apostles to come to your house. What purpose would such a visit serve?
And I'm assuming you are saying you didn't get it from the missionaries who visited you. What did they tell you that you believe to have been dishonest?
(1) What belief do you hold that they said was wrong? If they sincerely believed it to have been wrong, would it have been honest for them to tell you they thought it was right? By the way, did you show them in the Bible where what you believe is taught?
(2)You know as well as any poster on this forum, *Paul*, that the Latter-day Saints believe that many gospel truths were lost as a part of an apostasy that took place in the first-century Church. Why did it surprise you to have the missionaries refer to traditional Christianity today as being "incomplete"? Would it have been honest for them to simply ignore this fundamental LDS belief?
(3) Which verses in the Bible did they tell you were mistranslated? Which translation were they referring to? And why, if the Latter-day Saints believe the Bible is so unreliable, do you think we teach from it every single solitary Sunday?
What are the real issues, *Paul*? Apparently they aren't the ones the missionaries attempted to address? You evidently don't want to talk about common ground, even though there are many things we actually do agree on, but when the missionaries raise issues that we disagree on, you are offended. When they are friendly, you automatically assume that it's in some kind of underhanded and deceitful attempt to suck you in. I'm genuinely curious as to what the missionaries could have possibly done that would not have rubbed you the wrong way. It sounds to me as if they didn't stand much of a chance.
And you think it would be preferable to start with the highest level of understanding and work backwards to the basics? Could you tell me why, please, as I can't for the life of me figure that one out. I believe that the Apostle Paul made a point of using that same "tactic."
Finally, I'd just like to know why you really had the missionaries come to visit you? Did your Mormon friend bribe you or coerce you or what? Did you have questions you felt the Latter-day Saints on RF were unable to answer? You know as well as I do that you had absolutely no intention whatsoever of listening to their message with a mind open to the possibility that they might have had something to say that would be of benefit to you. You are 100% content with your own religion. Why did you invite them to your house at all?
Bishka
Veteran Member
And this is your problem? :areyoucra
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Yeah, nutshell, I know. And I am more than willing to acknowledge the differences. But just imagine the following hypothetical conversation between me (a missionary) and someone who has just opened his door to find me standing on his front porch. (For the sake of discussion, we'll just call him "My Victim".)
Me: Hi! My name is Sister Wilson, and this is Sister Fulmer. We're here from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I have a message to leave with you if you have a minute.
My Victim: The church of what?
Me: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. You may have heard of the Mormons?
My Victim: Oh... The Mormons. Why didn't you say so? What did you call your Church again? Something about Jesus Christ?
Me: Yes, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. May we talk to you for a minute?
My Victim: I didn't know Mormons were Christians.
Me: Well, we never said we were Christians.
My Victim: But you worship Jesus Christ?
Me: Absolutely. We believe that He was sent to earth to teach His gospel and to offer himself up in an atoning sacrifice for our sins... so that we could be reconciled to God.
My Victim: You believe in His ability to save us, then? That he was divine and not just some really good man with a good message?
Me: Of course He was divine! He was God's own Son, whose coming the Old Testament prophets foretold. He not only has the ability to save us, He is the only means by which we can be saved!
My Victim: Well, I'm a Christian and I believe that. Do you believe in the Virgin birth? Christians do.
Me: Yes, we believe everything the Bible has to say about Him.
My Victim: Everything?
Me: Everything.
My Victim: You believe He was the Son of God, that He was born to a Virgin, that He lived a perfect life... Wait! You didn't say that. Do you believe He was perfect in every way, that He never, ever once sinned?
Me: That's right. He was perfect and He set a perfect example for us. He told us to be perfect, even as our Father in Heaven is perfect.
My Victim: Uh... But I guess you don't believe in His literal resurrection?
Me: Oh, yes we do! His Resurrection is the focus of our faith. Had He not been resurrected, we would have no hope for eternal life ourselves.
My Victim: So you believe we will also be resurrected someday?
Me: Yes, we believe that with all our hearts. We will be resurrected and forgiven of our sins, provided we look to Him as our Savior and repent of our wrongdoings.
My Victim: Okay, so what's that book you're holding. Is that your Bible or something?
Me: Actually, these are our scriptures. They contain the Bible, but also the Book of Mormon and two other books of holy writings.
My Victim: The Book of Mormon? So that's something different from your Bible? You did say you believe the Bible, so what's the Book of Mormon?
Me: It's another testament of Jesus Christ. It's the record of His appearance to His other sheep, to some of those who were not in the Holy Land. Would you like to know more about that visit, and how it is another witness to the truth found in the Bible?
My Victim: Well, maybe. Are you sure you're not Christians?
Me: Well, I guess not. At least that's what they say on RF!
My Victim: Oh, darn. That's too bad. I'd like to talk to you more, but if you're not Christians... Sorry. Gotta run.
Some people may not believe we're Christians. That's their right. But how they can expect us to deny what we sincerely believe to be true is beyond me. How can I possibly say that I believe in Christ, that I worship Christ, that I look to Him for salvation and for eternal life in God's presence and then have the audacity to say, "I'm not a Christian." To do that would be to deny the foundation of my faith. What kind of a person would expect that of me?
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
First of all, you're confusing the doctrines of "sola fide" (faith alone) with "sola gratia" (grace alone). I actually do believe in grace alone. There is absolutely nothing I can do to save myself. I can believe in Him, I can repent of my sins, I can do good works till there are no good works left to do and none of these things will be of any benefit to me at all. I absolutely must rely on Christ's grace to save me.
Second, unless you are saying that those who belong to the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches are not Christian, your statement is false from the get go. Roughly one third of the world's population is at least nominally Christian. That's somewhere in the neighborhood of 2 billion people. If you add these two groups together, they account for more than half of the world's Christians -- and they do not believe in the doctrine of sola fide.
Third, it was not my intent to try to conceal the truth about what I believe. It was to point out how hypocritical it would be for me to deny that I am a Christian. If people don't want to consider me a Christian, that's their business. What they don't have a right to do is accuse me of being deceptive or underhanded when I refer to myself by a term I personally believe describes my beliefs.
nutshell
Well-Known Member
I would like to focus on your first point (above).
How do you reconcile your belief with the Book of Mormon:
Moroni 10:32 "...and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength then is his grace sufficient for you..."
Hel. 12:24 "Any may God grant, in his great fulness, that men might be brought unto repentance and good works, that they might be restored unto grace for grace, according to their works."
2 Nephi 25:23 "...for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."
The Book of Mormon doesn't teach "sola gratia." In fact, it teaches the opposite. Please reconcile this for me.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
This is pretty far off topic, in my opinion, nutshell, but if we can keep it brief and not end up totally derailing *Paul*'s thread, I’ll do my best to respond.
I feel as if I already explained what I mean when I say that we are saved by the grace of our Lord, Jesus Christ. While many Christians believe that faith in Jesus Christ is sufficient to make His grace operative in our lives, the Latter-day Saints believe that we must reconcile ourselves to God’s will, become humble, deny ourselves of ungodliness and love God with all our hearts in order for His grace to sanctify us. To say that we must do nothing at all to receive God’s gift of grace is really meaningless because belief itself is an act. If grace were given to everyone in the world, there would be no need for anyone to have faith, to repent or to even acknowledge the power of Jesus Christ’s atonement.
I’m going to quote three passages from the Book of Mormon. After each one, I’m going to state what I believe it to mean.
2 Nephi 10: 24 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.
My understanding of this verse: Brothers, accept God’s will, not the devil’s will. And after you do, remember that it is only through God’s grace that you may be saved.
Ether 12:26 …I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.
My understanding of this verse: I give men weaknesses in order that to humble them. Once a person has become humble, my grace is enough to save them. If they have faith in me, I will give them the strength they need to overcome their weaknesses.
Moroni 10:32-33 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God. And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.
My understanding of this verse: Come to Christ. Be perfected in Him and reject those things that are not godly. Do this, and love God with all your might, mind and strength. If you do, His grace will be sufficient to make you perfect in Christ. You will be unable to deny God’s power. If, by Christ’s grace, you have been made perfect in him and acknowledge His power to raise you to this state, you will be made holy (i.e. sanctified) by the grace of God, through Christ’s atoning sacrifice. By this sacrifice, which is a part of the covenant you enter into with your Father in Heaven, you will be forgiven of your sins and will be made holy in God’s eyes.
The whole idea of grace is that God is under no obligation whatsoever to forgive us. That’s what makes His grace a gift. But the fact that He had promised us that He will forgive us if we acknowledge that we are unable to save ourselves, and must rely on His Son’s Atonement is, in my opinion, reason enough to say that we are saved by grace, apart from anything we could do on our own. You can't make yourself "without spot" on your own. If you can, you're as powerful as God. Only Jesus Christ can do that, and it is only because He loves us that He is willing to.
Now, that’s all I have to say on the subject. Paul would have every right to ask the mod squad to remove this post entirely. It’s off-topic and therefore inappropriate for this thread. If you want to discuss it further, I’d be happy to. Just not here.
nutshell
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the post. I'd like to discuss this in the DIR/LDS forum some more. Honestly, Katz, I agree with you. I was only making the challenges because of my recent experience in another forum (CARM). They thought it was outrageous that I, as an LDS member, believed in grace alone.
porkchop
I'm Heffer!!!
Hey, do you guys secretly know where we live? Cause i just had American missionaries at the door!!!! For crying out loud, what do you guys want!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????????????????????????
I don't know what to say to them, if i invite them in, im either wanting to convert or to give them an "earbashing", if i tell them to go away, im not being hospitable and christian like, i cant win!!!! Shall i put a sign up on the door saying no mormons allowed??
I don't know what to say to them, if i invite them in, im either wanting to convert or to give them an "earbashing", if i tell them to go away, im not being hospitable and christian like, i cant win!!!! Shall i put a sign up on the door saying no mormons allowed??
Mr. Peanut
Active Member
I offer them a peanut!
porkchop
I'm Heffer!!!
And how did that go?
Mr. Peanut
Active Member
They usually look thirsty, so I offer a glass of water.
nutshell
Well-Known Member
Hey, do you guys secretly know where we live? Cause i just had American missionaries at the door!!!! For crying out loud, what do you guys want!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????????????????????????
I don't know what to say to them, if i invite them in, im either wanting to convert or to give them an "earbashing", if i tell them to go away, im not being hospitable and christian like, i cant win!!!! Shall i put a sign up on the door saying no mormons allowed??
They have GPS - Gathering Porkchop Saints
Honestly, if you don't want to talk politely tell them you're not interested. If you do want to talk invite them in. If you're worried about being hospitable you can offer them a glass of water in either case.
Mr. Peanut
Active Member
and a peanut!