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RELIGOUS SCIENTISM - "WHERE IS THE MATH"?

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I said:
If so, both the make up ideas of "black holes", "dark matter", and "dark energy" shouldn't have been launched and repeated as if they are the facts.

The relevans is that all three of them are mental speculations, including a "mathematical infinity" term itself.
You really should not use the term "speculations". That usually says more about the person commenting on the science that they do not understand than anything else. Take black holes as an example. They have "photographed" one by analyzing the light that it distorts due to ies massive gravitational field. We can observe them at the center of many galaxies by how they affect matter pouring into them. And we have even tracked the orbit of stars around the immense black hole at the center of our galaxy and can calculate its mass as a result.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Always picking on China

Well... ...No... ...they are too great a people to pick on. But the government shouldn't get the pass they always do.

"Butterfly in China" is a phrase connoting the insignificance of the causation of all things. We don't really need a deity at all when everything can be laid at the feet of a butterfly in China.

But on the other hand where did the butterfly come from is a legitimate question.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
For somebody who doesn't understand the basis of pure math or probably any other, I find that funny.
On the other hand you possibly understand math, but only 4% of the observable Universe. The other 96 % rests in mathematical and cosmological darkness.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
For somebody who doesn't understand the basis of pure math or probably any other, I find that funny.

I'd ask what you think the basis of mathematics is but I have no sense of humor and might have to grow one if I saw your answer.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
I'd ask what you think the basis of mathematics is but I have no sense of humor and might have to grow one if I saw your answer.
Reading your reply, you already have a very well double developed sense of humor :)
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Reading your reply, you already have a very well double developed sense of humor :)

Shhhhh.

Thank you but that's a secret and I try to ascribe all the humor that comes from human foibles and confusions to a Creator or nature itself. We are a funny species which can't even see the nature of humor or anything that goes on in or springs from the "mind".

It is the greatest joke of all time that we each think we know everything and each have an inside ticket to reality and then never notice no two us agree about anything at all because our beliefs and are models are completely different. We don't even notice we can't communicate properly.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
We don't even notice we can't communicate properly
Yes, the Sumerian interpreted "curse of the Babel Tower" seems still to work nicely in modern debates.

Before that, humans then must apparently have spoken the same language - or at least had the same/similar understanding of "this and that".
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Yes, the Sumerian interpreted "curse of the Babel Tower" seems still to work nicely in modern debates.

Before that, humans then must apparently have spoken the same language - or at least had the same/similar understanding of "this and that".

I believe there is news that will not only cast doubt on most science and especially on all science not supported by experiment like the cosmological models but also on all of our premises. Curiously it should eventually show there was a "tower of babel" as well.

-later. Good luck with your theories.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
All of theory is based solely on experiment. It follows that you can't know the effects of consciousness, the cause, or how it arose. you also can't calculate all of the forces and their interactions on a rocket's trajectory.

And yet, rockets arrive at their destination pretty precisely as per the calculations. So it doesn't seem like this supposed "variable" of consciousness, which you assert without evidence, has much of an impact on anything.

The rocket works not because you are so smarter that you know everything but because individuals worked out the bugs for the last century; many many individuals with many of them a lot smarter than you or me.

Ok. I don't remember claiming that rockets work because of me, but ok.

All ideas are individual and every individual is standing on the shoulders of giants but this doesn't mean any of them know or knew everything.

Ok. I don't remember claiming that someone, or anyone, knows everything, but ok.

Just like you and most people they thought they knew everything or at least knew how to google it. Every one of them could lecture on the the importance of fuel for rockets and good calculations for consumption and trajectory. Not one of them in 1925 or today could do it all. Not one of them could successfully perform brain surgery. Not one of them understood the interactions in the elemental forces involved in the launch of a rocket. Not one of them knew what every caveman knew.

Ok. I don't remember making any of these claims either, but ok.

Meanwhile: newtonian physics still works very well to get rockets into space. :shrug:

Even though not a single rocket scientists, rocket mathematician, rocket programmer, or rocket designer knew much of anything at all most of them were sure they knew most everything and they were all members of the species "homo omnisciencis".

Everything has everything to do with everything.

I mean the bolded sentence literally. Every experiment, every everything affects the trajectory of a rocket and this certainly includes every single thing that science has failed to reduce to experiment such as consciousness.

The tide imparted by the most distant galaxies affect the rocket. The ambient temperature at launch affects the trajectory of a rocket. A butterfly in China can bring down a space shuttle.

Despite the impossible complexity of reality most individuals just shrug it off because they know everything. You don't need to see a big picture when you think you can see every puzzle piece with a microscope.

Cool. And yet, rockets arrive at their destination with pretty awesome precision.
So these mysterious unevidenced variables you claim play a role... it doesn't seem to be that big of a role.

You couldn't possibly be more wrong.

Ow, we could be very much more wrong. We could be so wrong that rockets simply don't work and never get to their destination.
But clearly they do. So it can't be that wrong.

You think you don't need to see anything but you are wrong. Without the big picture you are as blind as a bat

So blind that rockets nevertheless arrive at their destination with more then enough precision.

that can see only what it knows or cricket or even a cricket bat that sees nothing at all. But you can only assume an appliance isn't conscious because you have no definition for it.
Sure, sure.

Call us when you have worked out the "conscious" variable in how it affects rocket trajectories and then upgrade the equations and demonstrate how they are now more precise.

Until then, newtonian physics seems to work just fine to get rockets into orbit.
 

Pogo

Well-Known Member
Who in the hell do you think built the rocket? Scientism?



You believe rockets don't need fuel?
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All the ancient Greek concepts you need to make a rocket, as for fuel, use a big rubber band if you want, Newton just took this stuff and figured out math to make it easier to work it out on paper.

Scientism is your idea that there is some supernatural thing going on here which requires some invisible unmeasurable property.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Scientism is your idea that there is some supernatural thing going on here which requires some invisible unmeasurable property.

No...

"Scientism" is the beliefs of those who don't understand science to explain how rockets work. They belief some monolith called "science" magically invented propulsion and fuel by means of genius and the understanding of the big picture they call "theory". This is all magical thinking. there is no evidence for any of it and no evidence that nature obeys "laws" discovered through the genius that is science.

There is no magic and there is and never was any "science" that invented rockets. We don't even understand the nature of "gravity" which prevents us from going to the moon without rockets and which is overcome through power (applied externally) . There are only individuals and these individuals (not you or tagliatellimonster) invented the means, materials, and ideas to make rockets work. Many of these individuals had no science at all because they lived and worked before DesCartes believed he existed due or despite thinking. Many of them even today believe in Deities of various sorts.

Just as there are no species, there are no people. There are individuals and you can not usurp science in the same way religion has usurped spirituality and large swathes of vocabulary because "science" has a defined metaphysics and this metaphysics does not include any of the magic in which you believe. You are simply wrong.

I don't believe in any science but rather try to understand the underlying nature of reality through science and reason.

To each his own. But even though billions believe in science it makes "science" no more real than belief in any deity can bring It into existence or cause It to have always existed. Reality is what it is and our best chance of approximating it with our models is through experiment; ie- proper interpretation of ALL experiment.
 
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Pogo

Well-Known Member
No...

"Scientism" is the beliefs of those who don't understand science to explain how rockets work. They belief some monolith called "science" magically invented propulsion and fuel by means of genius and the understanding of the big picture they call "theory". This is all magical thinking. there is no evidence for any of it and no evidence that nature obeys "laws" discovered through the genius that is science.

There is no magic and there is and never was any "science" that invented rockets. We don't even understand the nature of "gravity" which prevents us from going to the moon without rockets and which is overcome through power (applied externally) . There are only individuals and these individuals (not you or tagliatellimonster) invented the means, materials, and ideas to make rockets work. Many of these individuals had no science at all because they lived and worked before DesCartes believed he existed due or despite thinking. Many of them even today believe in Deities of various sorts.

Just as there are no species, there are no people. There are individuals and you can not usurp science in the same way religion has usurped spirituality and large swathes of vocabulary because "science" has a defined metaphysics and this metaphysics does not include any of the magic in which you believe. You are simply wrong.

I don't believe in any science but rather try to understand the underlying nature of reality through science and reason.

To each his own. But even though billions believe in science it makes "science" no more real than belief in any deity can bring It into existence or cause It to have always existed. Reality is what it is and our best chance of approximating it with our models is through experiment; ie- proper interpretation of ALL experiment.
Forgot the Chinese who added Bats**t to Brimstone and Charcoal.

There is no magical understanding here just a few thousand years of humans doing and communicating science.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Forgot the Chinese who added Bats**t to Brimstone and Charcoal.

There is no magical understanding here just a few thousand years of humans doing and communicating science.

Just as you can't go to the moon on rubber band power you can't communicate "science" when neither the speaker nor the listener are at all familiar with science. Your beliefs are contradicted by definitions and known fact.

No matter how much you twist and turn and play semantical games science doesn't think, understand, or come up with new hypotheses. People do these things and many of them are wholly ignorant of science or are theists. Peers can't think and Peers have no opinions right or wrong. Science didn't invent rockets with or without rubber bands, individuals did just as individuals invented the waggle dance and individuals procreate (in cooperation with one other individual).

This is not complex. Your belief in magic is complex.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
That's like saying science is not English and English is not science.

Math is just a language.


Possibly. But it would appear to be a universal language, and therefore one which, unlike French or German, might be said to exist independently of us.
 
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