Remove ’Everybody Draw Muhammad Day’ from Facebook

[Sahar]

Maybe that misunderstanding and ignorance is based on the actions of the outspoken radical Muslims who threaten and kill those who portray their prophet in any manner the radical feels is demeaning.

We can also say the threats are in response to Abu Ghraib, raping and killing Muslim women and children in Iraq and Afghanistan. It's mutual, what should we do about it?

In America in particular, we usually have a very strong reaction to those who would attempt to quash free and legal speech.

I only wish it is not in the form of a childish reaction "hey see I can offend you, what are you going to do about it". I have always understood freedom of speech as a means and not an end in itself.

 

[tumbleweed41]

We can also say the threats are in response to Abu Ghraib, raping and killing Muslim women and children in Iraq and Afghanistan. It's mutual, what should we do about it?

You can say that. But like I said. the vocal and violent responses I am talking about are directed at images of Muhammad.

As for the violence and atrocities committed against prisoners in Abu Ghraib and Gitmo. And atrocities commited by US solders against women, children and other civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan. Although I find this inclusion in your argument to be an unrelated strawman, I find those actions reprehensible and further proof that war begets violence against the innocent and guilty alike.

 

[Sahar]

You can say that. But like I said. the vocal and violent responses I am talking about are directed at images of Muhammad.

I do think it's not about this only as I stated before but it's a "cumulative" reaction towards all what many Muslims perceive as Western injustice against Muslims. This is how I view it.
What do you think we should do about such hatred?

 

[Sahar]

What is more better and more worthy of consuming our time and effort, to support insults, hatred, and misrepresentation of millions of people as a way to emphasize freedom of speech, or to emphasize freedom of speech by speaking out against injustice, hatred, by bring different nations closer? Which is easier and which is more difficult? Why should freedom of speech be emphasized through hatred?

 

[Caladan]

I only wish it is not in the form of a childish reaction "hey see I can offend you, what are you going to do about it". I have always understood freedom of speech as a means and not an end in itself.

Up till now I avoided this thread, but I'll make a comment about this and ask a question. the cartoons in European newspapers did not spring out of nothing, a Danish cartoonist doesn't wake up one day and thinks to himself 'hmm I think Im going to make fun of Muslims today for fun', the cartoonist makes a political or social statement about current events, and you know what? perhaps he might be tasteless and lack an appreciation for religious sentiments because of his own social background, however he makes a satire about troubling issues which exist in our world. when the first Muhammad cartoons appeared I thought 'My thats a pretty stupid thing to do to provoke Muslims that way', but the implications and the reactions sinked with me, and I said to myself, hold on a minute, not only is my nation criticized in the same manner in these newspapers and we are OK with it, but Muslim nations go out of their way to make offensive use of their media also in the forms of cartoons that go well beyond reasonable criticism of Israel and into the realms of lunatic hatred towards Jews in general, and we do not riot about it, do not murder cartoonists, and do not burn embassies, and then I started to ponder about the implication to freedom of expression, and about creating an atmosphere that one social group in the world will receive certain sensitivie consideration (out of fear), will create a sacred cow and to top it will apply double standards as it demonizes others. you say that such cartoons target all Muslims, well more than a few times I've seen you cheer when the existence of Israel comes into question, in other words, it is OK for all the citizens of a nation to be delegitimized, but when your religious sentiments are effected people should know better?
so obviously, this situation is more complicated. and these cartoons are not shocking when you look at the bigger picture, European media has criticized many issues, it has criticized Christianity for years, now it is also criticizing Islam, its not surprising because there are many issues today in Europe and the world which have to do with Islam, so obviously their interest is foremost to tackle these issues and discuss them publically, and not merely taking a cheap shot at Muslims.

Here are some of the cartoons in the Arab media, would you feel about them the same way you feel about cartoons about Islam?

 

[YmirGF]

What is more better and more worthy of consuming our time and effort, to support insults, hatred, and misrepresentation of millions of people as a way to emphasize freedom of speech, or to emphasize freedom of speech by speaking out against injustice, hatred, by bring different nations closer? Which is easier and which is more difficult? Why should freedom of speech be emphasized through hatred?

So you would prefer a world wherein nobody said what they think; a world of pretend?

 

[tumbleweed41]

I do think it's not about this only as I stated before but it's a "cumulative" reaction towards all what many Muslims perceive as Western injustice against Muslims. This is how I view it.
What do you think we should do about such hatred?

The US, and the west in general needs to end it's attempted manipulation of foreign affairs. If the US had not propped up the Shaw of Iran, or helped Sadam gain control of Iraq, or many of it's other manipulations in the Middle East, we would not be in the situation we are in now.
It is time to let these countries find their own way. All we have done is create enemies.
Conversely, the west needs to end it's dependence on oil, thus removing one of the final interventionist influences from it's foreign policies.


But the political cartoon will continue to live on as an example of free speech in the west. As well it should,

 

[Sahar]

Up till now I avoided this thread, but I'll make a comment about this and ask a question. the cartoons in European newspapers did not spring out of nothing, a Danish cartoonist doesn't wake up one day and thinks to himself 'hmm I think Im going to make fun of Muslims today for fun', the cartoonist makes a political or social statement about current events, and you know what? perhaps he might be tasteless and lack an appreciation for religious sentiments because of his own social background, however he makes a satire about troubling issues which exist in our world. when the first Muhammad cartoons appeared I thought 'My thats a pretty stupid thing to do to provoke Muslims that way', but the implications and the reactions sinked with me, and I said to myself, hold on a minute, not only is my nation criticized in the same manner in these newspapers and we are OK with it, but Muslim nations go out of their way to make offensive use of their media also in the forms of cartoons that go well beyond reasonable criticism of Israel and into the realms of lunatic hatred towards Jews in general, and we do not riot about it, do not murder cartoonists, and do not burn embassies, and then I started to ponder about the implication to freedom of expression, and about creating an atmosphere that one social group in the world will receive certain sensitivie consideration (out of fear), will create a sacred cow and to top it will apply double standards as it demonizes others. you say that such cartoons target all Muslims, well more than a few times I've seen you cheer when the existence of Israel comes into question, in other words, it is OK for all the citizens of a nation to be delegitimized, but when your religious sentiments are effected people should know better?
so obviously, this situation is more complicated. and these cartoons are not shocking when you look at the bigger picture, European media has criticized many issues, it has criticized Christianity for years, now it is also criticizing Islam, its not surprising because there are many issues today in Europe and the world which have to do with Islam, so obviously their interest is foremost to tackle these issues and discuss them publically, and not merely taking a cheap shot at Muslims.

Here are some of the cartoons in the Arab media, would you feel about them the same way you feel about cartoons about Islam?

You are very clever Caladan, how you could use this issue to your side.
You know what if Muslims were unified under a rule and this united Islamic nation occupied say a non Muslim country X, terrorized the inhabitants, demolished their houses and farms to replace it by new Muslim inhabitants, cut off electricity and water from the locals, murdered them, you know what I would say that hatred against such Muslims is very justified. But the now reality is most of the cases Muslims didn't appoint certain persons to speak or act in their name and after making gross generalized statements about all Muslims, I have every right to call it misjudgment. Want to criticize the violent extremists, why not?
Now whose countries are occupied? Who is strong and who is weak? Who have the most advanced military technology and forces and who don't? Who impose sanctions on other nations?
Don't ever try to equate the Israeli issue to this. At least we all know that you are talking about a conflict between two sides. Trying to portray as if Arabs demonize the Israelis and the Israelis don't is a very cheap shot.
I don't care whether Palestine was occupied by Jews, Christians, or even aliens, I care about oppressed people who are driven out of their basic rights and this is what freedom of speech is all about. I have no problem whatsoever with cartoons that criticize oppression, tyranny and injustice. I have a problem with cartoons that want to offend followers of a religion to prove that they are capable of offense. Even taking the Israeli issue to the extreme and hatred against Israel to extremes by believing that Hitler should have eliminated all Jews because of what they are doing to the Palestinians is absolutely condemned. I recently knew there are Muslim persons who think this way and it was shocking to me. I oppose it strongly but criticizing Israel is a complete different matter and you were really clever to misleadingly associate them together.

but Muslim nations go out of their way to make offensive use of their media also in the forms of cartoons that go well beyond reasonable criticism of Israel and into the realms of lunatic hatred towards Jews in general, and we do not riot about it, do not murder cartoonists, and do not burn embassies

Israeli military only burns children What cartoons are you talking about where there are actual occupation, racist ethnic replacement, demolished houses and farms, murdered children?
Let the cartoons go to hell if you tried to compare it to all this. God! The stupid cartoons are nothing, injustice against people is everything. That's why I think Muslims should realize their priorities.

 

[Caladan]

You are very clever Caladan, how you could use this issue to your side.
You know what if Muslims were unified under a rule and this united Islamic nation occupied say a non Muslim country X, terrorized the inhabitants, demolished their houses and farms to replace it by new Muslim inhabitants, cut off electricity and water from the locals, murdered them, you know what I would say that hatred against such Muslims is very justified. But the now reality is most of the cases Muslims didn't appoint certain persons to speak or act in their name and after making gross statements about Muslims, I have every right to ask why. Now whose countries are occupied? Who is strong and who is weak? Who have the most advanced military technology and forces and who don't? Who impose sanctions on other nations?

Muslims can be very efficient in eliminating and eradicating other Muslims and other people. the middle east and Africa is ripe with inter-Muslim conflicts with millions of casualties and millions of refugees. so I do not see how this red herring helps you make a point. the cartoons in European newspapers touched some of the disturbing things that are on the public debate and have to do with the Muslim world, so obviously by your logic they are 100% justified, and yet you try to label them as simply 'making fun of Muslims'.

Don't ever try to equate the Israeli issue to this. At least we all know that you are talking about a conflict between two sides. Trying to portray as if Arabs demonize the Israelis and the Israelis don't is a very cheap shot.
I don't care whether Palestine was occupied by Jews, Christians, or even aliens, I care about oppressed people who are driven out of their basic rights and this is what freedom of speech is all about. I have no problem whatsoever with cartoons that criticize oppression, tyranny and injustice. I have a problem with cartoons that want to offend followers of a religion to prove that they are capable of offense.

And this is your red herring, because this is precisely what plenty of the cartoons sought to do, they made a satire about Islamist violence.

Even taking the Israeli issue to the extreme and hatred against Israel to extremes by believing that Hitler should have eliminated all Jews because of what they are doing to the Palestinians is absolutely condemned. Because I knew there are some Muslim persons who support such a thing and it was shocking to me. I oppose it strongly but criticizing Israel is a complete different matter and you were really clever to misleadingly associate them together.

I haven't said anything about eliminating all Jews, however when you say that Israel has no right to exist (as much as today it is a hollow saying which I'm not ashamed to say that plays right into the hands of the 'Zionists'), and then you say that criticizing Islam is generalizing all Muslims, you can be sure that you are going to be challenged.

Israeli military only burns children What cartoons are you talking about where there are actual occupation, racist ethnic replacement, demolished houses and farms, murdered children?
Let the cartoons go to hell if you tried to compare it to all this. God! The stupid cartoons are nothing, injustice against people is everything.

You are right, the cartoons about Islam and Muhammad are nothing. the endless violence in Darfour, the sectarian violence between Muslims in Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Yemen and other places are everything.

 

[Sahar]

You are right, the cartoons about Islam and Muhammad are nothing. the endless violence in Darfour, the sectarian violence between Muslims in Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Yemen and other places are everything.

Yes Caladan yes.

 

[Sahar]

Muslims can be very efficient in eliminating and eradicating other Muslims and other people. the middle east and Africa is ripe with inter-Muslim conflicts with millions of casualties and millions of refugees. so I do not see how this red herring helps you make a point. the cartoons in European newspapers touched some of the disturbing things that are on the public debate and have to do with the Muslim world, so obviously by your logic they are 100% justified, and yet you try to label them as simply 'making fun of Muslims'.

After my edit, I said if you want to make cartoons about the violent extremists, go ahead but targeting the sacred figure of all Muslims to criticize the violent minority is inability to think reasonably.

I haven't said anything about eliminating all Jews, however when you say that Israel has no right to exist (as much as today it is a hollow saying which I'm not ashamed to say that plays right into the hands of the 'Zionists'), and then you say that criticizing Islam is generalizing all Muslims, you can be sure that you are going to be challenged.

Um, I believe you read the united islamic nation part.

 

[.lava]

After my edit, I said if you want to make cartoons about the violent extremists, go ahead but targeting the sacred figure of all Muslims to criticize the violent minority is inability to think reasonably.

would not let me frubal you. so i reply could not agree more. thank you for taking time and sharing your opinion, not4me

.

 

[Caladan]

After my edit, I said if you want to make cartoons about the violent extremists, go ahead but targeting the sacred figure of all Muslims to criticize the violent minority is inability to think reasonably.

I find it strange that you would be more worried about using a holy figure more than you would be worried about the phenomena the cartoons criticize. after all, Jesus Christ has been the target of much satire, far worse than the Muhammad cartoons, and this is 'God incarnate' for Christians, what you perhaps fail to understand is that in 'the western' media, this is business as usual, religious icons are not above satire and statements. as a Muslim you need to deal with that, everything is up for criticisism or even ridicule, nothing is sacred, Islam is going to be criticized and its icons used in order to make a satire more successful and to the point just like Christianity, and other dogams and systems. obviously you equated the cartoons I posted about Jews to your negative preceptions about Israel and shrugged them off, even tough they are highly dehumanizing , just like the target crowd of the cartoons about Islam connect these cartoons to the negative issues of the Muslim world that they perceive.

 

[Sahar]

I find it strange that you would be more worried about using a holy figure more than you would be worried about the phenomena the cartoons criticize. after all, Jesus Christ has been the target of much satire, far worse than the Muhammad cartoons, and this is 'God incarnate' for Christians, what you perhaps fail to understand is that in 'the western' media, this is business as usual, religious icons are not above satire and statements. as a Muslim you need to deal with that, everything is up for criticisism or even ridicule, nothing is sacred, Islam is going to be criticized and its icons used in order to make a satire more successful and to the point just like Christianity, and other dogams and systems.

Oh, it's not a matter of criticizing the violent extremists anymore. I know hobbi that nothing is sacred to them. What you don't know is that I worry about what should Muslims do, more than what others do.

obviously you equated the cartoons I posted about Jews to your negative preceptions about Israel and shrugged them off, even tough they are highly dehumanizing , just like the target crowd of the cartoons about Islam connect these cartoons to the negative issues of the Muslim world that they perceive.

I won't repeat myself.

 

[Badran]

I find it strange that you would be more worried about using a holy figure more than you would be worried about the phenomena the cartoons criticize. after all, Jesus Christ has been the target of much satire, far worse than the Muhammad cartoons, and this is 'God incarnate' for Christians, what you perhaps fail to understand is that in 'the western' media, this is business as usual, religious icons are not above satire and statements. as a Muslim you need to deal with that, everything is up for criticisism or even ridicule, nothing is sacred, Islam is going to be criticized and its icons used in order to make a satire more successful and to the point just like Christianity, and other dogams and systems.

Just because that's the way it is, doesn't mean we should accept it.

 

[Caladan]

Oh, it's not a matter of criticizing the violent extremists anymore. I know hobbi that nothing is sacred to them. What you don't know is that I worry about what should Muslims do, more than what others do.

If I was a Muslim that is probably what I would be worried about as well.

 

[Caladan]

Just because that's the way it is, doesn't mean we should accept it.

What viable alternatives do you see?

 

[dogsgod]

I'm not a Muslim, so there is no reason why I can't draw or view cartoons of Muhammad. Muslims have no right to impose their restrictions on me or anyone else.

 

[McBell]

I'm not a Muslim, so there is no reason why I can't draw or view cartoons of Muhammad. Muslims have no right to impose their restrictions on me or anyone else.

I agree.

What I find interesting is that the TS did not feel that the truth could stand on it's own and thus felt the need to lie.

 

[Badran]

What viable alternatives do you see?

I know there is no way to stop this, I understand that. What i mean is that we should react to this in a peaceful manner, like for example that campaign.

You see, If you mean that we should accept this idea, and be okay with the fact that some people just want to do this, and don't react to it at all, i can't see how i can do that. May be i'm wrong, and to be honest i can't see a lot of options as to how to deal with this, but it doesn't seem right to me to do nothing.

But If what you meant is that we should deal with it, as in not make a big deal and death threats about it, then i agree.