My point is that even if you think that a person's reaction is irrational, it's still a consequence that you should consider when deciding your course of action.
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Remove Everybody Draw Muhammad Day from Facebook
- Thread starter murtaxa
- Start date
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
So your analogy was faulty. Understood.
You asserted that Muslims who get worked up at depictions of Muhammad "deserve" to be antagonized because their reaction is irrational. I gave an example of an irrational reaction; if your argument is sound, then we would reach the same conclusion: that the person deserves to be antagonized. If we don't reach the same conclusion, then this indicates that you were engaging in special pleading when you made your earlier argument.
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
My point is that even if you think that a person's reaction is irrational, it's still a consequence that you should consider when deciding your course of action.
I understand your point. My point is that that is a completely different situation. In point of fact, exposure to the things people fear is a good way to help them overcome the fears, but of course, it needs to be done in certain ways.
Anyway, the point is that we all have hang-ups. We all have things that we don't like or offend us personally. That doesn't mean others should walk on eggshells around us, though. It's a diverse world. You have to learn to accept that others don't share all of your values.
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
I don't know if I'd call it "special pleading", but different circumstances require different approaches. I don't treat my wife the same way I treat my brother.
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
I asserted no such thing. Please refrain from telling lies about what I've said.
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
I think it's rather condescending to Muslims to paint them as people who have no control over their reactions and responses, and that they needed to be treated as over-emotional children.
.lava
Veteran Member
i don't. but drawings of Prophets are not there because people are free or want to be free. they do this because they can and because they know it disturbs Muslims. not sure if that page is still there cos i can't view it. but on first day i saw this thread i read messages there and they were saying things like "dropping nukes" and "bombing Ka'ba"..etc. this is not free speech IMO. this is hatred and maybe once upon a time drawings were done because people were simply naive, they did not have anything similar in their society and maybe it was somewhat innocent. but not anymore. today drawings are used to show their hatred, used to provoke people. this is not about freedom anymore. but yea, if Muslims did not give childish and violent reactions, they would not perceive this opportunity as a weapon to be used against Muslims in the first place
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Vietta
Bassguitargirl
Telling people to draw Muhammad violates NO standing law of the United States. I'm not sure what Constitution you're looking at, but according to the first amendment to my Constitution every single citizen of this great country has freedom of speech, petition to government, religion, assembly, and freedom of press. The simple fact is, these people (no matter how vulgar or hateful you or I may find their drawings) have every right to draw whatever they want to. Besides, telling someone to draw the prophet Muhammad is the same as telling people to draw Jesus. People draw Jesus all the time yet no one complains. Who really gives a damn how vulgar you find their drawings? I'm not for drawing defamatory images of religious figures and I agree that it is wrong, but if you think about it the devil is a religious figure and I'm fairly sure if someone drew a defamatory picture of him you wouldn't be complaining. You can't honestly be offended by drawings of one religious figure without being offended by drawings of all religious figures. How about we go Byzantine and whitewash every single picture in the church and smash all stained glass windows with religious figures in them? If you want to be iconoclastic and restrict these people's ability to draw Muhammad however they want then no one should be able to draw any kind of religious figure. Bye bye culture!
nomadchild
Gone Sailing
I agree with you for the majority. It seems that the religious seem to believe that religion above anything offensive..
Perfect Circle
Just Browsing
These people saying "drop nukes" and "bomb this" aren't worth listening to. Every village has an idiot... and in the village of facebook, it's a lot more than one.
However, though it's hate-filled, it's still technically free speech. In the same way that I can't stop the KKK from burning crosses, Neo-Nazis from getting swastika tatooes, and RevolutionMuslim from operating an anti-western website within my country's borders. All of it... the good & the bad... are parts of a free society.
.lava
Veteran Member
yes, OK, but IMO the real issue is what kind of mentality lays behind these kind of events and how free speech is abused as a concept to legalize hatred towards Muslims. it's only the title of it that makes it acceptable, not its content. under the flag of free speech which is a kind of freedom that we all need to be individuals without doubt, people unite to express hatred and racism. this is no better than Muslims marching on the streets, saying "behead those who insult Islam". this is not a joke, Perfect Circle. this is not funny, this is not what free speech is. i do know what happens if people don't have freedom of speech because i grew up in certain time of my nation where people were arrested for having an opinion. but i also do know that any freedom with no end is cruelty and dictatorship because those who hung young people in Turkey in 80s and sent thousands to jail for being leftists or communists were the ones who had free speech with no deadline. because they did draw the line as they wished, ignoring who'd have opposing idea
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Vietta
Bassguitargirl
Acting on free speech is different from having free speech. Just because you can say it, doesn't mean you can do it. If everyone did everything they said they were going to do nothing would exist. The fact that some people are immature and juvenile enough to harm another person because they don't think or act the same way they do just shows how far society is slipping.
Ah. I see; the entire Muslim world is worked up into a "bloodthirsty tizzy" atm. How'd I miss that?
On the bright side: isn't great to be an American with the inalienable right to tell the rest of the world what they deserve?
Yes, the "proper", ie., Western priority and perspective. Why the hell won't he rest of the world just grow up and look at things in exactly he same way we do? Selfish, stubborn barbarians.
Yes we are, ours.
I agree: I think the human race will always be divided into reasonable and unreasonable people.
When did that happen?
Gee; a "bloodthirsty tizzy" and "frothing outrage". I'd hate to have to clean all that up.
And again: why wont the rest of the world see that everything they consider sacred that we don't is "silly" and "trivial".
Rather; that our pride supersedes our own sense of decency.
In most places those things have been banned. Where were you?
I think there are better things we could be doing with our time besides jousting with windmills.
Ah, I see: you're saying we shouldn't humor them, they should be humoring us.
OF course it is.
It's about irritating people who have ****** you off. The "excercising free speech" bit just makes it sound like a noble cause. You're just using an ideal in the same way religious fanatics use "God's will"; it looks better on the banner than "Oh Yeah? Well **** you too".
"Freedom" meaning "privilege" and "their" as in "anybody who isn't us".
Pretty much all of what i'm going to say has already been said. I just want to add it, because i'm a Muslim, and i want to put a Muslim's perspective on this.
I agree that people are free to draw Muhammad (pbuh) if they want. No rules are broken by that. Also, in my personal opinion on what freedom is, they should be free to do that, because it is an expression of personal views or personal feelings toward him or Muslims in general.
However, I hope that every one can see, that the fact that they are free to do that, doesn't necessarily mean that they are right in what they are doing. It's a reaction to the overreaction by Muslims. Muslims go over the top on these things, and they shouldn't, for reasons already stated.
So it is basically that people got insulted by Muslim's attempt to supposedly oppress their freedoms, and they gave a reaction to that, a wrong one in my opinion. You don't have to prove to Muslims that they can't oppress you. If you stop yourself form doing something bad, that doesn't mean you couldn't, even if someone just told you don't do it. You know you can do it if you want, so it doesn't matter if the other will take as a sign of you obliging their demands.
I don't think that making a point justifies this.
I agree that people are free to draw Muhammad (pbuh) if they want. No rules are broken by that. Also, in my personal opinion on what freedom is, they should be free to do that, because it is an expression of personal views or personal feelings toward him or Muslims in general.
However, I hope that every one can see, that the fact that they are free to do that, doesn't necessarily mean that they are right in what they are doing. It's a reaction to the overreaction by Muslims. Muslims go over the top on these things, and they shouldn't, for reasons already stated.
So it is basically that people got insulted by Muslim's attempt to supposedly oppress their freedoms, and they gave a reaction to that, a wrong one in my opinion. You don't have to prove to Muslims that they can't oppress you. If you stop yourself form doing something bad, that doesn't mean you couldn't, even if someone just told you don't do it. You know you can do it if you want, so it doesn't matter if the other will take as a sign of you obliging their demands.
I don't think that making a point justifies this.
Rainbow Mage
Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
You know Badran isn't it a point of interest that Islamic icons of Muhammad do exist, despite the schools that are against it?
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
It's also ironic that those opposing these actions are painting everyone with a broad brush who takes part in it as "immature," "racist," or "anti-Islamic," when it seems they are more than ready to point out any criticism of any Muslims, as painting all Muslims with a broad brush.
.lava
Veteran Member
please be more open cos i could not understand if you are saying this to me, to someone else or it's some general observation. i can't really tell
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