Repeal the 2nd Amendment

[Nous]

why assume that one prefatory statement is exclusionary?

For the same reason that one should assume that the Fourth Amendment does not prohibit police to ask people questions. There is nothing stated or implied in the words of the Fourth Amendment to that effect, just like there is nothing stated or implied in the words of the Second Amendment about a right of people to have handguns for purposes of self-defense in the home. The words of the Second Amendment are in direct contrast to the words of those state declarations, such as Vermont's, that specified a right to "bear arms for the defence of themselves and the State".

 

[Shadow Wolf]

An Oregon bakery that was fined for refusing to prepare a cake for a same-sex wedding has raised $352,500 in around two months, setting a record for the website that hosted its fundraising campaign.

The money those people get almost makes me want to start a website that includes very strong homophobic statements just so I can get the backlash and then get the money - and then say "haw-haw" as the money goes towards furthering pro-GLBT causes.

 

[Nous]

The money those people get almost makes me want to start a website that includes very strong homophobic statements just so I can get the backlash and then get the money - and then say "haw-haw" as the money goes towards furthering pro-GLBT causes.

That would be fun. Apparently you would bring in lots of money.

 

[Curious George]

For the same reason that one should assume that the Fourth Amendment does not prohibit police to ask people questions. There is nothing stated or implied in the words of the Fourth Amendment to that effect, just like there is nothing stated or implied in the words of the Second Amendment about a right of people to have handguns for purposes of self-defense in the home. The words of the Second Amendment are in direct contrast to the words of those state declarations, such as Vermont's, that specified a right to "bear arms for the defence of themselves and the State".

Bad analogy, one would require someone to be insecure during conversation, the other would require a right to be infringed if a common instance of a class was excluded.

 

[Nous]

Bad analogy, one would require someone to be insecure during conversation, the other would require a right to be infringed if a common instance of a class was excluded.

I take it you still can't provide any coherent reason to read the Second Amendment as intending to secure some right about having handguns in the home for purposes of self-defense.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

And I was pointing out that your claims are false, which has already been shown on this thread. Click the link and continue reading:

The Second Amendment was adopted to protect the right of the people of each of the several States to maintain a well-regulated militia. It was a response to concerns raised during the ratification of the Constitution that the power of Congress to disarm the state militias and create a national standing army posed an intolerable threat to the sovereignty of the several States. Neither the text of the Amendment nor the arguments advanced by its proponents evidenced the slightest interest in limiting any legislature’s authority to regulate private civilian uses of firearms. Specifically, there is no indication that the Framers of the Amendment intended to enshrine the common-law right of self-defense in the Constitution.

In 1934, Congress enacted the National Firearms Act, the first major federal firearms law.[1] Upholding a conviction under that Act, this Court held that, “[i ]n the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a ‘shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length’ at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument.” Miller, 307 U. S., at 178. The view of the Amendment we took in Miller--that it protects the right to keep and bear arms for certain military purposes, but that it does not curtail the Legislature’s power to regulate the nonmilitary use and ownership of weapons--is both the most natural reading of the Amendment’s text and the interpretation most faithful to the history of its adoption.

Since our decision in Miller, hundreds of judges have relied on the view of the Amendment we endorsed there;[2] we ourselves affirmed it in 1980. See Lewis v. United States, 445 U. S. 55 , n. 8 (1980).[3] No new evidence has surfaced since 1980 supporting the view that the Amendment was intended to curtail the power of Congress to regulate civilian use or misuse of weapons. Indeed, a review of the drafting history of the Amendment demonstrates that its Framers rejected proposals that would have broadened its coverage to include such uses.

[. . .]

“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State”

The preamble to the Second Amendment makes three important points. It identifies the preservation of the militia as the Amendment’s purpose; it explains that the militia is necessary to the security of a free State; and it recognizes that the militia must be “well regulated.” In all three respects it is comparable to provisions in several State Declarations of Rights that were adopted roughly contemporaneously with the Declaration of Independence.[5] Those state provisions highlight the importance members of the founding generation attached to the maintenance of state militias; they also underscore the profound fear shared by many in that era of the dangers posed by standing armies.[6] While the need for state militias has not been a matter of significant public interest for almost two centuries, that fact should not obscure the contemporary concerns that animated the Framers.

The parallels between the Second Amendment and these state declarations, and the Second Amendment’s omission of any statement of purpose related to the right to use firearms for hunting or personal self-defense, is especially striking in light of the fact that the Declarations of Rights of Pennsylvania and Vermont did expressly protect such civilian uses at the time. Article XIII of Pennsylvania’s 1776 Declaration of Rights announced that “the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the state,” 1 Schwartz 266 (emphasis added); §43 of the Declaration assured that “the inhabitants of this state shall have the liberty to fowl and hunt in seasonable times on the lands they hold, and on all other lands therein not inclosed,” id., at 274. And Article XV of the 1777 Vermont Declaration of Rights guaranteed “[t]hat the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the State.” Id., at 324 (emphasis added). The contrast between those two declarations and the Second Amendment reinforces the clear statement of purpose announced in the Amendment’s preamble. It confirms that the Framers’ single-minded focus in crafting the constitutional guarantee “to keep and bear arms” was on military uses of firearms, which they viewed in the context of service in state militias.​

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-290.ZD.html

I would recommend that you get first hand information by reading the founding fathers' writings than second hand information which anyone can make up.

 

[Nous]

I would recommend that you get first hand information by reading the founding fathers' writings than second hand information which anyone can make up.

If you have any information that shows Justice Stevens' claims to be false, then present it.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

"A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined..."
- George Washington, First Annual Address, to both House of Congress, January 8, 1790

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Constitution, Draft 1, 1776

"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787

"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, December 20, 1787

"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
- Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria), 1774-1776

"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks." - Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 19, 1785

"The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to to John Cartwright, 5 June 1824

"On every occasion [of Constitutional interpretation] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying [to force] what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, [instead let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Johnson, 12 June 1823

"I enclose you a list of the killed, wounded, and captives of the enemy from the commencement of hostilities at Lexington in April, 1775, until November, 1777, since which there has been no event of any consequence ... I think that upon the whole it has been about one half the number lost by them, in some instances more, but in others less. This difference is ascribed to our superiority in taking aim when we fire; every soldier in our army having been intimate with his gun from his infancy."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Giovanni Fabbroni, June 8, 1778

“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

"To disarm the people...s the most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, referencing advice given to the British Parliament by Pennsylvania governor Sir William Keith, The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adooption of the Federal Constitution, June 14, 1788

"I ask who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers."
- George Mason, Address to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 4, 1788

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops."
- Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution, October 10, 1787

"Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of."
- James Madison, Federalist No. 46, January 29, 1788

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country."
- James Madison, I Annals of Congress 434, June 8, 1789

"...the ultimate authority, wherever the derivative may be found, resides in the people alone..."
- James Madison, Federalist No. 46, January 29, 1788

"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
- William Pitt (the Younger), Speech in the House of Commons, November 18, 1783

“A militia when properly formed are in fact the people themselves…and include, according to the past and general usuage of the states, all men capable of bearing arms… "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
- Richard Henry Lee, Federal Farmer No. 18, January 25, 1788

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.... The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun."
- Patrick Henry, Speech to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 5, 1778

"This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty.... The right of self defense is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction."
- St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England, 1803

"The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand, arms, like law, discourage and keep the invader and the plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. The balance ofpower is the scale of peace. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside. And while a single nation refuses to lay them down, it is proper that all should keep them up. Horrid mischief would ensue were one-half the world deprived of the use of them; for while avarice and ambition have a place in the heart of man, the weak will become a prey to the strong. The history of every age and nation establishes these truths, and facts need but little arguments when they prove themselves."
- Thomas Paine, "Thoughts on Defensive War" in Pennsylvania Magazine, July 1775

"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
- Samuel Adams, Massachusetts Ratifying Convention, 1788

"The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them."
- Joseph Story, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States, 1833

"What, Sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty .... Whenever Governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins."
- Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, I Annals of Congress 750, August 17, 1789

"For it is a truth, which the experience of ages has attested, that the people are always most in danger when the means of injuring their rights are in the possession of those of whom they entertain the least suspicion."
- Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 25, December 21, 1787

"If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no resource left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers, may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual state. In a single state, if the persons intrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair."
- Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28

"f circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens. This appears to me the only substitute that can be devised for a standing army, and the best possible security against it, if it should exist."
- Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28, January 10, 1788

"As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms."
- Tench Coxe, Philadelphia Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789

Here are some.

 

[Curious George]

I take it you still can't provide any coherent reason to read the Second Amendment as intending to secure some right about having handguns in the home for purposes of self-defense.

I take it you can not yet explain why the right would be a right of the people not a right of the militia members?

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

You know it really sucks being a moderate, liberals call me conservative and conservatives call me liberal.

 

[Revoltingest]

I take it you can not yet explain why the right would be a right of the people not a right of the militia members?

This reminds me that I occasionally hear of the 2nd Amendment being about the right of government to have the guns.
(Note that I'm not attributing that to anyone here at the moment.)
This would be odd indeed...could other rights in the Bill Of Rights be reserved for government instead of citizens?

 

[Revoltingest]

You know it really sucks being a moderate, liberals call me conservative and conservatives call me liberal.

We Libertarians have a similar problem, being to the left of Kennedy & to the right of Reagan.
I offer sympathy for those who have difficulty applying labels to us.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

We Libertarians have a similar problem, being to the left of Kennedy & to the right of Reagan.
I offer sympathy for those who have difficulty applying labels to us.

I can be considered libertarian but do not identify with the American libertarian party.

 

[Revoltingest]

I can be considered libertarian but do not identify with the American libertarian party.

Most libertarians don't, so you've lots'o company.
I joined back in the '70s cuz I seldom found anyone in the other parties to vote for.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

"A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined..."
- George Washington, First Annual Address, to both House of Congress, January 8, 1790

Such a quotation has a certain part that many people ignore. Of course the Founding Fathers were for an armed populace, but it was assumed people would be trained and would use their guns for hunting (which was a given back then) and for training militia defense. They would probably all use an extremely elaborate sentence or two that comes to out to the length of a paragraph or two to describe how stupid we are for letting people have guns without requiring them to be trained to use them before hand and for not having this discipline with guns that Washington wrote about.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

Such a quotation has a certain part that many people ignore. Of course the Founding Fathers were for an armed populace, but it was assumed people would be trained and would use their guns for hunting (which was a given back then) and for training militia defense. They would probably all use an extremely elaborate sentence or two that comes to out to the length of a paragraph or two to describe how stupid we are for letting people have guns without requiring them to be trained to use them before hand and for not having this discipline with guns that Washington wrote about.

I do agree that we should have to be trained in fire arm safety before ownership.

However I am discussing what the founding fathers' thought not what I think.

 

[Revoltingest]

Such a quotation has a certain part that many people ignore. Of course the Founding Fathers were for an armed populace, but it was assumed people would be trained and would use their guns for hunting (which was a given back then) and for training militia defense.

Why this claim?
I wonder what they wrote about being trained before being armed.

 

[RRex]

Repeal the 2nd Amendment

NO.

 

[Revoltingest]

Repeal the 2nd Amendment

NO.

Aye, you'd think we should be expanding civil liberties, instead of continually curtailing them here.

 

[RRex]

Aye, you'd think we should be expanding civil liberties, instead of continually curtailing them here.

In this country, I think the loss of our gun rights would be very problematic, especially since criminals seem to have free and unfettered access to them.