Report: 23 Pro-Life Organizations Vandalized, Firebombed by Pro-Abortion Activists in Recent Weeks

[Clizby Wampuscat]

A challenge for you if you think I'm being uncharitable:

Name one measure that a mainstream anti-choice group has proposed, in the name of reducing abortions, that makes things better for pregnant people. Just one that's a good enough option that it freely convinces pregnant people not to seek an abortion. Just one that doesn't involve cruelty or limiting the legal options available to pregnant people.

Just one.

This has nothing to do with why people are prolife which is what I was talking about.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

There is no opposition to abortion in the Bible. Christians sometimes think that there is.

ok, that is for them to decide.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This has nothing to do with why people are prolife which is what I was talking about.

Like I said: the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

People who were actually "pro-life" and who really saw fetuses as human beings would try to prevent abortions even when it doesn't involve making pregnant women suffer.

So again: show me one example of where real-world anti-choicers actually did this. One example where they worked to reduce the number of abortions without kicking a pregnant person while they were down.

Just one.

Can you do it?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

ok, that is for them to decide.

I'm surprised but heartened that you're suddenly pro-choice.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Like I said: the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

People who were actually "pro-life" and who really saw fetuses as human beings would try to prevent abortions even when it doesn't involve making pregnant women suffer.

So again: show me one example of where real-world anti-choicers actually did this. One example where they worked to reduce the number of abortions without kicking a pregnant person while they were down.

Just one.

Can you do it?

Not sure what you want. But here is a report of services offered with personal stories of deciding against an abortion.

https://s27589.pcdn.co/wp-content/u...ry-of-Hope-A-Legacy-of-Life-and-Love-FULL.pdf

Raven and Martel's story on page 22 shows that the center offered free ultrasound, free prenatal care, free counseling about how to be a mother and father. These parents do not seem to have been treated badly and they seem grateful for the experience.

Rebecca on page 40 called the pregnancy center after she took an abortion pill and they saved the baby. She seems grateful as well.

How were these people mistreated?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

I'm surprised but heartened that you're suddenly pro-choice.

Whatever. Prochoice and prolife are regularly used in relation to abortions, that is how I am using them. I am sure there are things you are not pro choice for. It's just a cheap word game.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Not sure what you want. But here is a report of services offered with personal stories of deciding against an abortion.

https://s27589.pcdn.co/wp-content/u...ry-of-Hope-A-Legacy-of-Life-and-Love-FULL.pdf

Raven and Martel's story on page 22 shows that the center offered free ultrasound, free prenatal care, free counseling about how to be a mother and father. These parents do not seem to have been treated badly and they seem grateful for the experience.

They seem grateful... in the anti-choice organization's promotional material.

Here's what the article describes:

Eventually one of our ultrasound technicians, Christine, walked them back for an ultrasound. Raven and Martel then saw their child on the screen. Raven’s mind began to change. They talked with Christine for a long time – about morning sickness, abortion procedures, fetal development. Christine encouraged her about her sickness, telling her that it would most likely subside in the next few weeks. But it was the tiny heartbeat of their son that kept coming back to the new parents.

Even in this sanitized version of the exchange, they allude to the sort of misinformation - lying - that the AMA warns about:

Perhaps most worrisome, regardless of whether a particular location is licensed, CPCs engage in counseling that is misleading or false [8]. Despite claims to the contrary, these centers do not meet the standard of patient-centered, quality medical care [18]. The counseling provided on abortion and contraception by CPCs falls outside accepted medical standards and guidelines for providing evidence-based information and treatment options. For example, CPCs often suggest a link between abortion and subsequent serious mental health problems [3], while multiple studies have invalidated this assertion [19-21]. Similarly, centers cite debunked literature showing an association between abortion and breast cancer [22]. Although abortion has been shown to be safer than childbirth [23], it is portrayed as a dangerous or even deadly procedure [7].

Why Crisis Pregnancy Centers Are Legal but Unethical

As for not charging... that's a tactic to avoid regulatory oversight, as the AMA points out:

The question of whether CPCs are “legal” is complicated. Centers lack regulatory oversight as they are not medical practices and do not charge for services. This exempts them not only from laws and statutes specific to medical clinics but also from Federal Trade Commission or state regulations that apply to commercial enterprises. Their practices are considered to fall under the classification of free speech, which is protected by the First Amendment [2, 11]. This makes them much harder to regulate and provides them with a loophole to avoid scrutiny while providing information that does not conform to medical standards of care.

Rebecca on page 40 called the pregnancy center after she took an abortion pill and they saved the baby. She seems grateful as well.

How were these people mistreated?

No, that story says she got treatment at a hospital. Read it again.

Anyhow, it seems like you didn't understand my question.

There are plenty of programs that could directly address the reasons why pregnant people seek abortions. There are plenty of programs that could reduce unwanted pregnancy.

Can you point me to any anti-choice group who has done so much as written a letter to their member of Congress to say, for instance, "paid parental leave would make it easier for more women decide not to abort, so we support paid parental leave."

... or free condoms in high schools. Or subsidized daycare (an issue that's in the news here lately).

Or even "disconnection from work" legislation. Our provincial government just passed a law here in Ontario mandating that employers enact "disconnection from work" policies, and not a single anti-choice group weighed in to say "yes - this will encourage better work-life balance for parents, and make it easier for pregnant women to decide not to abort, so we support this law." Why do you think this is?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Whatever. Prochoice and prolife are regularly used in relation to abortions, that is how I am using them. I am sure there are things you are not pro choice for. It's just a cheap word game.

Someone who "leaves it for [others] to decide" about whether abortion is acceptable is pro-choice, even if they're personally opposed to abortion, would never seek one for themselves, and considers themselves "pro-life."


"Pro-life" and "pro-choice" aren't opposite ends of the spectrum. There are plenty of ways that the abortion rate could be reduced that are completely consistent with respecting the free choice of the pregnant person.

This is why I use the term "anti-choice": these are the people who not only disapprove of abortion, but are willing to **** on the autonomy of others in order to prevent other people from getting legal abortions.

 

[Subduction Zone]

ok, that is for them to decide.

What? No, you just want an ally. Any ally. They are in effect trying to go against the First Amendment.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

There are plenty of programs that could directly address the reasons why pregnant people seek abortions. There are plenty of programs that could reduce unwanted pregnancy.

Can you point me to any anti-choice group who has done so much as written a letter to their member of Congress to say, for instance, "paid parental leave would make it easier for more women decide not to abort, so we support paid parental leave."

... or free condoms in high schools. Or subsidized daycare (an issue that's in the news here lately).

Or even "disconnection from work" legislation. Our provincial government just passed a law here in Ontario mandating that employers enact "disconnection from work" policies, and not a single anti-choice group weighed in to say "yes - this will encourage better work-life balance for parents, and make it easier for pregnant women to decide not to abort, so we support this law." Why do you think this is?

In 2021 the Republican's came up with a plan for paid family leave. I did not check but I bet most of those republicans are prolife.

https://gop-waysandmeans.house.gov/...MR-Paid-Leave-and-Child-Care-052721-FINAL.pdf

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

What? No, you just want an ally. Any ally. They are in effect trying to go against the First Amendment.

Ok, but that is not why I am prolife. I cannot make that decision for them. I try to convince theists that a religious argument for being prolife is faulty and cannot be made.

It is not going against the 1st amendment if a private group votes for people that do not want abortion to be legal.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Ok, but that is not why I am prolife. I cannot make that decision for them. I try to convince theists that a religious argument for being prolife is faulty and cannot be made.

It is not going against the 1st amendment if a private group votes for people that do not want abortion to be legal.

You may have your own reasons. It is still not a good idea to team up with those that are trying to accomplish something by dishonest and immoral means. By doing so you tend to paint yourself with the same brush.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

In 2021 the Republican's came up with a plan for paid family leave. I did not check but I bet most of those republicans are prolife.

https://gop-waysandmeans.house.gov/...MR-Paid-Leave-and-Child-Care-052721-FINAL.pdf

Your "plan for paid family leave" doesn't seem to actually require any paid leave.

Regardless, can you find even one person who expressed that they:

- expected abortions to go down as a result of the bill, and
- expressed that this was a reason to support the bill?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It is not going against the 1st amendment if a private group votes for people that do not want abortion to be legal.

It's more 9th and 14th Amendment rights they're messing with, not 1st Amendment rights:

This right of privacy, whether it be founded in the Fourteenth Amendment's concept of personal liberty and restrictions upon state action, as we feel it is, or ... in the Ninth Amendment's reservation of rights to the people, is broad enough to encompass a woman's decision whether to terminate her pregnancy.

 

[KW]

You may have your own reasons. It is still not a good idea to team up with those that are trying to accomplish something by dishonest and immoral means. By doing so you tend to paint yourself with the same brush.

I already proved to you that abortion is opposed in scripture.

Stop the lies.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I already proved to you that abortion is opposed in scripture.

Stop the lies.

No, you proved that you do not understand your own Bible. Not only does Exodus 21 22-23 refute you. So do Bible approved chemical abortions by priests.

 

[Brian2]

And which of these options have you tried to make more appealing so that pregnant people will freely choose them instead of abortion?

Please be specific.

I don't have the power to do that. It certainly is an issue, something that should be changed.

The anti-choice movement's conduct shows us that they don't care about actually preventing abortions.

The fact that the anti-choice movement is, by and large, based on misogyny and hypocrisy isn't why abortion rights should be protected, but the anti-choice movement is by and large based on misogyny and hypocrisy.

Protest is protest. They protest about abortion, not about women.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't have the power to do that. It certainly is an issue, something that should be changed.

You have the power to, say, write a letter or start a petition to your elected representatives to ask for the law to be changed.

You have the power to donate money or time to charities that provide services that make parenthood an easier option to freely choose.

... but I take it from your reply that you've done none of those things.

Protest is protest. They protest about abortion, not about women.

They protest the rights of women.

Telling me that it's "not about women" when you try to devalue women to the point where you would deny them rights we even grant to corpses is pretty misogynist in its own right.

 

[Brian2]

You have the power to, say, write a letter or start a petition to your elected representatives to ask for the law to be changed.

You have the power to donate money or time to charities that provide services that make parenthood an easier option to freely choose.

... but I take it from your reply that you've done none of those things.

I have done none of those things.

They protest the rights of women.

Telling me that it's "not about women" when you try to devalue women to the point where you would deny them rights we even grant to corpses is pretty misogynist in its own right.

They try to protect the rights of the unborn.
The debate surely is about where the line should be drawn in the balance of rights. The woman's rights and the unborn's rights.

 

[Subduction Zone]

They try to protect the rights of the unborn.
The debate surely is about where the line should be drawn in the balance of rights. The woman's rights and the unborn's rights.

And there you go trying to give a fetus more rights than a corpse. Someone else does not have a right to organs from a corpse. Do you understand this? If I needed a cornea to see and there was a corpse with a close DNA match to mine I could not demand that cornea. It is not mine to take. Does Chester have a right to your wife's uterus, just because he needs a place to live?