Report reveals the truth behind the international dupe on Palestinian poverty.

[Shusha]

The Arabs are direct descendants of the same pagans the Jews were going around slaughtering in the Old Testament,

This is not based on any sort of factual information and actually contradicts what we know about ancient peoples living in the area. There is absolutely no evidence that links modern day Palestinians with ancient peoples in terms of culture, language, religion, dress, or any other identifying cultural or ethnic aspect.

 

[Lyndon]

I think it means the rulers of the area were Muslims, does that make sense to you??

 

[Lyndon]

This is not based on any sort of factual information and actually contradicts what we know about ancient peoples living in the area. There is absolutely no evidence that links modern day Palestinians with ancient peoples in terms of culture, language, religion, dress, or any other identifying cultural or ethnic aspect.

Were do you get this stuff, the Arabs trace their ancestry to Abraham, are you in denial of that.

 

[Shusha]

This is the sort of dishonestly inaccurate statement that makes this subject so difficult. The 5000 Jewish people living there before 1882 are not the problem and aren't an issue. It's the hundreds of thousands who arrived in the 20th century.

But immigration is a recognized part of sovereignty. And people who have been ethnically cleansed from a territory from which they are indigenous have the right to return to that territory. The right to sovereignty and self-determination are not determined by numbers. The foundational question is whether or not the Jewish people have a right to sovereignty in their historic territories. If they do -- it doesn't matter where the numbers came from or where.

 

[Shusha]

I think it means the rulers of the area were Muslims, does that make sense to you??

Just because the area has been ruled by members of a certain faith does not mean that all national sovereignty can only arise from members of that faith. Faith is irrelevant to national independance and sovereignty.

 

[Lyndon]

But immigration is a recognized part of sovereignty. And people who have been ethnically cleansed from a territory from which they are indigenous have the right to return to that territory. The right to sovereignty and self-determination are not determined by numbers. The foundational question is whether or not the Jewish people have a right to sovereignty in their historic territories. If they do -- it doesn't matter where the numbers came from or where.

Whatever right the Jews have to return to a land the inhabited 2000 years ago, is totally trumped by the right of the Palestinians to return to a land they inhabited 70 years ago, if you really believe in this right of return stuff, then turn over Israel to the original inhabitants of 70 years ago.

 

[Shusha]

Were do you get this stuff, the Arabs trace their ancestry to Abraham, are you in denial of that.

If you think you can prove that modern day Arab Palestinian Muslims are culturally or ethnically related to pre-Judaic cultures in the middle east -- please present your case. I would LOVE to hear it. That Arabs have co-opted the Jewish narrative and claimed it as their own is not in any way convincing.

 

[Shusha]

Whatever right the Jews have to return to a land the inhabited 2000 years ago, is totally trumped by the right of the Palestinians to return to a land they inhabited 70 years ago, if you really believe in this right of return stuff, then turn over Israel to the original inhabitants of 70 years ago.

Which, by your views, is totally trumped by the rights of the current inhabitants. I don't believe in the possession trumps rule. I believe both groups have rights. Why don't you meet me there?

 

[Lyndon]

Palestinian and Jewish DNA closely linked. In fact Palestinians may trace their roots back to Jews that stayed in Palestine and converted to Islam;

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/epiphenom/2009/01/shared-genetic-heritage-of-jews-and.html

 

[Nietzsche]

What, exactly, is "Muslim rule"? And what authoritative international law speaks about "Muslim rule"? Muslim is not a legal term that can be used to indicate a national sovereignty.

Caliphs at one point, Sultans another. Depends on the era. I personally preferred how the Ottomans tended to run the place.

 

[Lyndon]

Which, by your views, is totally trumped by the rights of the current inhabitants. I don't believe in the possession trumps rule. I believe both groups have rights. Why don't you meet me there?

Yeah the main difference is that I believe in EQUAL rights for Palestinians and Israeli Jews (and equal land), I don't think you do, at least the current Israeli government certainly doesn't stand for equal rights for Palestinians.

 

[Shusha]

Yeah the main difference is that I believe in EQUAL rights for Palestinians and Israeli Jews (and equal land), I don't think you do, at least the current Israeli government certainly doesn't stand for equal rights for Palestinians.

I absolutely believe in equal rights. I can even formulate broad concepts which apply to all groups. Do you want to talk about the equal rights Jews have in Gaza? Oh wait...

 

[columbus]

And people who have been ethnically cleansed from a territory from which they are indigenous have the right to return to that territory.

Sorry, but I vehemently disagree.
My own ancestors were almost all Irish people forced out by British policies in the late 19th century. That doesn't give me any claims on modern Ireland, not even the ones who moved there from England and Scotland. Some historical eggs just can't be unscrambled.
If you live in the USA you can confidently assume that your home was stolen fair and square from the indigenous people.
Tom

 

[Lyndon]

I'd say we stole the Indian land by "hook and by crook" rather than "fair and square"

 

[Shusha]

Sorry, but I vehemently disagree.
My own ancestors were almost all Irish people forced out by British policies in the late 19th century. That doesn't give me any claims on modern Ireland, not even the ones who moved there from England and Scotland. Some historical eggs just can't be unscrambled.
If you live in the USA you can confidently assume that your home was stolen fair and square from the indigenous people.
Tom

Fair enough. Then you can't very well complain about Jewish immigrants to the territory. We are stealing the land fair and square. Grin.

 

[RocketJSquirell]

Lyndon - Muslims claim that Mohamed was descended from Ishmael. Arabs do not claim to be descended from Abraham. The claim made by Muslims for Mohamed's descent from Ishmael in unsupportable by facts. The "genealogy" presented by Muslims is short by hundreds of years, even assuming long generations. The people appearing on the genealogy have no historically verifiable existence. And the Bible tells us that Ishmael went south and settled either in Egypt or in the area of present day Sharm El Sheik. The reason for the claimed descent of Mohamed from Abraham is to give Mohamed's claims of being a prophet legitimacy and to claim the Jewish narrative for Muslims. Theologically this is quite understandable and as a faith statement unassailable. It just happens not to be true. .

 

[columbus]

Fair enough. Then you can't very well complain about Jewish immigrants to the territory. We are stealing the land fair and square. Grin.

By and large I don't. I consider Zionists now entitled due to the fact that they actually built the place. Nothing about the ancient people or religion. I think the best thing the indigenous people could do is look at the great place Israel is and decide to join the prosperity.
That doesn't stop me from criticizing many of the policies.
Tom

 

[Lyndon]

Rocket, And we're supposed to believe you, who in the world are you, just another person with an opinion, as you know the saying, everyone has one.

By the way Ishmael is Abraham's son, check your Torah, I'm sure its in there.

 

[Shusha]

By and large I don't. I consider Zionists now entitled due to the fact that they actually built the place. Nothing about the ancient people or religion. I think the best thing the indigenous people could do is look at the great place Israel is and decide to join the prosperity.
That doesn't stop me from criticizing many of the policies.
Tom

I could agree with that whole post except that it seems to label the Palestinians as the "indigenous peoples", to the exclusion of the Jewish people. But I agree with ;you in principle -- regardless of the past or ancient stories we are both here now and the only right thing to do is to create two states for two peoples.

 

[Lyndon]

I'm organizing a drive to have a two state solution here in America, Donald Trump and all his supporters in one country, and the rest of us in what's left. But yes I am a supporter of a true two state solution to Israel/Palestine, and that means Palestine is a country just like Jordan, with its own government not overseen or dominated by Israel or its military. You don't see Jordan launching rockets into Israel or blowing up guards on the border, I trust the Palestinians to tone down their insurrection if they are ever given a true country to call their own, a good sizable chunk of what is now Israel.