Thank you. I'll go through the scriptures and start a thread over in Religion Q&A about this with more in depth questions.
Thank you for your hospitality in your DIR.
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Thank you for your hospitality in your DIR.
First Baseman
Retired athlete
You're welcome. The concept of grace is often misunderstood, even among Christians. I sure wish Christians would get their Bibles out and read them.
Actually, I'm pretty sure it is called Antinomianism, it's just that that word is something rather peculiar to the Protestant world. I don't think the Catholics and Orthodox have a word for it--we just know that we have to do good works, and not works of the Mosaic Law.
Wait, what do you mean? Gentile Christians were exempted from the Law starting with Acts 15. Catholics don't have to be circumcised, and we don't have any of the dietary restrictions, regulations for ritual cleanliness, or anything else that goes along with the Mosaic Law that we have to follow. Jewish Christians are another story, but are you saying that all Christians have to follow all the Mosaic Law? Because that's what comes to my mind when I see "Christians aren't excused from the Law of Moses".
I'm not sure if the term came about before or after the "once saved, always saved" attitude, and if it was stretched out in an attempt to justify this attitude, or whether antinomianism was coined specifically for the "once saved, always saved" attitude. That's why I'm asking.
Hi Crossfire,
The concept you describe in the OP does not strike me as having much, if anything, to do with antinomianism - at least as I have always understood this theology. Antinomianism is basically an extreme and heretical interpretation of the Protestant doctrine of sole fide, which rejects the idea of any moral obligations because faith alone in Jesus as Lord is held to be sufficient for salvation.
To that extent, in its most extreme form, antinomianism has led historically to amoralism, involving such activities as mass orgies, public displays of nudity, profane cursing, and immoderate alocholism, because the antinomian doesn't believe that he or she need strive to be a virtuous person; grace having freed them from the constraints of conventional morality. Jesus will save you anyway, no matter how immoral your life is - that sort of thing. Now, not all antinomians are to that extent but the movement has turned out that way with many sects in the past, such as the 17th century English Ranters.
I've long thought antonmianism sounds fun
but it's basically a religious excuse to live on the edge, rebel against societal norms, get kinky and indulge in wanton pleasure ranging from sex to...just about anything sensuous really, so long as you let others do the same because they too are presumabely freed by grace from morality. If that's what a person aspires to do, I'd encourage them just to become a hedonistic secular swinger rather than feeling the need to justify enjoying themselves and getting kinky with a religious label, if you get my drift. Really, I think most young people (say under-30) these days are practically living like antinomians anyway for at least a part of their life.Your original post does, however, have much in common with the mainstream Christian understanding of the nature of the New Covenant of Jesus Christ itself as the "law of grace and the Spirit", particularly the Catholic idea of the "primacy of conscience". To cut a long story short, we call what your referring too "the law of liberty" and it is actually the New Testament itself, the New Covenant, the New Law of Jesus, the Gospel summed up in the Beatitudes which describe the state of the ideal human being.
Pope Francis referred to this concept recently:
"...[Some people think] that simply by stressing doctrinal, bioethical and moral issues, without encouraging openness to grace, we are providing sufficient [spiritual] support...
By thinking that everything is black and white, we sometimes close off the way of grace and of growth, and discourage paths of sanctification which give glory to God... We find it hard to make room for the consciences of the faithful, who very often respond as best they can to the Gospel amid their limitations, and are capable of carrying out their own discernment in complex situations.
We have been called to form consciences, not to replace them..."
In the above, Pope Francis is condemning legalism or "Pelagianism" - the idea that salvation consists in vigorously following the requirements of an external religious law, the "works of the law" as with the Mosaic Covenant. He explains instead that salvation actually comes from "openness to grace" and the natural law accessible to our conscience, an interior law within our minds and not something externally imposed on us with prohibitions and commands as in, "do this, do that".By thinking that everything is black and white, we sometimes close off the way of grace and of growth, and discourage paths of sanctification which give glory to God... We find it hard to make room for the consciences of the faithful, who very often respond as best they can to the Gospel amid their limitations, and are capable of carrying out their own discernment in complex situations.
We have been called to form consciences, not to replace them..."
The New Law of Christ does not consist of any "rules" like that. It is spontaneous, interior, conscientious. It is about people searching deep within themselves for the voice of God, in openness to his saving grace and heeding the dictates of a well-formed conscience. This is why we have such things as the Sacrament of Confession and the practice of Examination of Conscience, used for instance by the Jesuits. There is no Christian Torah or Shariah law, nor even a detailed set of precepts as with the Buddha's Noble Eightfold Path.
The New Law is the inner grace of the Holy Spirit, accessible only to the individual's conscience. See this article written in 1962 by Stanislaus Lyonnet, a Jesuit priest and biblical scholar. Note in particular the bolded bit which shows you how this orthodox Christian belief is distinct from antinomianism:
http://www.womenpriests.org/scriptur/lyonnet.asp
The law of the Spirit is radically different by its very nature. It is not just a code, not even one "given by the Holy Spirit", but a law "produced in us by the Holy Spirit"; not a simple norm of actions outside us, but somethings, that no legal code as such can possibly be: a new, inner, source of spiritual energy.
If St. Paul applies the term "law" to this spiritual energy, rather than the term "grace" that he uses elsewhere (see Rom.6:14) he most probably does it because of Jeremiah's prophecy (also mentioned in this context by St. Thomas) announcing a new covenant, the "New Testament" . For the prophet, too, speaks of law: "This is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel . .. . I will place my law within their hearts" (31:33). Every time the Angelic Doctor refers to this "New Testament", he does so in the same terms: "It is God's way to act in the interior of the soul, and it was thus that the New Testament was given, since it consists in the inpouring of the Holy Spirit". Again: "It is the Holy Spirit Himself who is the New Testament, inasmuch as He works in us the love that is the fulness of the Law (23). For the Church and for her liturgy too, the promulgation of the New Law does not date from the Sermon on the Mount, but from the day of Pentecost when the "finger of the Father's right hand",digitus paternae dexterae, wrote His law in the hearts of men; the code of the Old Law, given on Sinai, finds its counterpart, not in a new code, but in the giving of the Holy Spirit."
From this fundamental doctrine everything else flows, notably,the fact that Christian morality is of necessity founded on love, as St. Paul following his Master, teaches:"The whole Law is fulfilled in one word: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself" (Gal 5:14) "He who loves his neighbour has fulfilled the Law If there is any other command it is summed up in this saying: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself .... therefore is the fulfilment of the Law" (Rom 13:8-10) The reason is that love is not first of all a norm of conduct, by a dynamic force. As St. Thomas notes, it is precisely because the Law, as a law, was not love that it could not justify man: "Consequently it was necessary to give us a law of the Spirit, who by producing love within could give us life." (27) .
Under these conditions, it is easy to see that a Christian, that is one led by the Holy Spirit, (28) can at the same time be freed from every external law - "not be under the law" - and yet lead a perfect moral and virtuous life. St Paul makes it abundantly clear in the epistle to the Galatians, shortly after he has reduced te whole law to love: "Walk in the Spirit, and you will not fulfil the lusts of the flesh (Gal. 5: 16) Nothing could be more obvious, he explains, since these are two antagonistic principles: If you follow me, you cannot but oppose the other." If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law." In fact, what need would you have of law? A Spiritual man knows perfectly well what is carnal, and, if he is spiritual, he will fly from it as by instinct
If St. Paul applies the term "law" to this spiritual energy, rather than the term "grace" that he uses elsewhere (see Rom.6:14) he most probably does it because of Jeremiah's prophecy (also mentioned in this context by St. Thomas) announcing a new covenant, the "New Testament" . For the prophet, too, speaks of law: "This is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel . .. . I will place my law within their hearts" (31:33). Every time the Angelic Doctor refers to this "New Testament", he does so in the same terms: "It is God's way to act in the interior of the soul, and it was thus that the New Testament was given, since it consists in the inpouring of the Holy Spirit". Again: "It is the Holy Spirit Himself who is the New Testament, inasmuch as He works in us the love that is the fulness of the Law (23). For the Church and for her liturgy too, the promulgation of the New Law does not date from the Sermon on the Mount, but from the day of Pentecost when the "finger of the Father's right hand",digitus paternae dexterae, wrote His law in the hearts of men; the code of the Old Law, given on Sinai, finds its counterpart, not in a new code, but in the giving of the Holy Spirit."
From this fundamental doctrine everything else flows, notably,the fact that Christian morality is of necessity founded on love, as St. Paul following his Master, teaches:"The whole Law is fulfilled in one word: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself" (Gal 5:14) "He who loves his neighbour has fulfilled the Law If there is any other command it is summed up in this saying: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself .... therefore is the fulfilment of the Law" (Rom 13:8-10) The reason is that love is not first of all a norm of conduct, by a dynamic force. As St. Thomas notes, it is precisely because the Law, as a law, was not love that it could not justify man: "Consequently it was necessary to give us a law of the Spirit, who by producing love within could give us life." (27) .
Under these conditions, it is easy to see that a Christian, that is one led by the Holy Spirit, (28) can at the same time be freed from every external law - "not be under the law" - and yet lead a perfect moral and virtuous life. St Paul makes it abundantly clear in the epistle to the Galatians, shortly after he has reduced te whole law to love: "Walk in the Spirit, and you will not fulfil the lusts of the flesh (Gal. 5: 16) Nothing could be more obvious, he explains, since these are two antagonistic principles: If you follow me, you cannot but oppose the other." If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law." In fact, what need would you have of law? A Spiritual man knows perfectly well what is carnal, and, if he is spiritual, he will fly from it as by instinct
It is about people being moral agents, responsibly forming and examining their own consciences over time - "working out their own salvation" - through the grace of God and the help of Holy Mother Church with her teachings, scriptures and sacraments, which exist to enlighten or "form" individual conscience properly but not to replace it.
As Pope Benedict XVI explained:
"Unlike other great religions, Christianity has never proposed a revealed law to the State and to society, that is to say a juridical order derived from revelation. Instead, it has pointed to nature and reason as the true sources of law"
Read this:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=e8N4F3iQUZQC&pg=PA182&dq=freedom+law+interior+st.+Thomas&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjjmvHenuTMAhWrK8AKHbPjBzEQ6AEIKTAB#v=onepage&q=freedom law interior st. Thomas&f=false
From St. Thomas Aquinas:
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/2108.htm
Article 1. Whether the New Law ought to prescribe or prohibit any external acts?
The New Law consists chiefly in the grace of the Holy Ghost, which is shown forth by faith that worketh through love. Now men become receivers of this grace through God's Son made man, Whose humanity grace filled first, and thence flowed forth to us...
On the other hand, there are works which are not necessarilyopposed to, or in keeping with faith that worketh through love. Such works are not prescribed or forbidden in the New Law, by virtue of its primitive institution; but have been left by the Lawgiver, i.e.Christ, to the discretion of each individual. And so to each one it is free to decide what he should do or avoid; and to each superior, to direct his subjects in such matters as regards what they must do or avoid. Wherefore also in this respect theGospel is called the "law of liberty" [Cf. Reply to Objection 2]: since the Old Law decided many points and left few to man to decide as he chose.
Accordingly the New Law is called the law of liberty in two respects. First, because it does not bind us to do or avoid certain things, except such as are of themselves necessary or opposed to salvation, and come under the prescription or prohibition of the law. Secondly, because it also makes us comply freely with these precepts and prohibitions, inasmuch as we do so through the promptings ofgrace. It is for these two reasons that the New Law is called "the law of perfect liberty" (James 1:25).
On the other hand, there are works which are not necessarilyopposed to, or in keeping with faith that worketh through love. Such works are not prescribed or forbidden in the New Law, by virtue of its primitive institution; but have been left by the Lawgiver, i.e.Christ, to the discretion of each individual. And so to each one it is free to decide what he should do or avoid; and to each superior, to direct his subjects in such matters as regards what they must do or avoid. Wherefore also in this respect theGospel is called the "law of liberty" [Cf. Reply to Objection 2]: since the Old Law decided many points and left few to man to decide as he chose.
Accordingly the New Law is called the law of liberty in two respects. First, because it does not bind us to do or avoid certain things, except such as are of themselves necessary or opposed to salvation, and come under the prescription or prohibition of the law. Secondly, because it also makes us comply freely with these precepts and prohibitions, inasmuch as we do so through the promptings ofgrace. It is for these two reasons that the New Law is called "the law of perfect liberty" (James 1:25).
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Thanks for clearing that up, and providing the sources, @Vouthon . The dichotomy of the spirit vs the flesh does not lead to the extreme self-affliction and extreme asceticism one sees in some of the religions of the east, because of individual discretion through the law of liberty in "working out your own salvation." Extreme asceticism leads to neither liberty nor salvation, just as extreme hedonism makes you a slave of the flesh. (The way between the two extremes is mitigated by individual conscience or grace. I naturally tend towards the extreme of self affliction, so I have to be mindful to make sure that I take care of my physical needs to stay healthy.)
Does the term 'grace' apply to both unconscious (intuitive) guidance/conscience and conscious revelation?
Does the term 'grace' apply to both unconscious (intuitive) guidance/conscience and conscious revelation?
Hello again Crossfire!
Theology draws a distinction between the intuitive impulse to act (actual grace) which comes prior to regeneration or any action on the part of the individual and the permanent state of grace (sanctifying grace), which comes about through wilfully deciding to heed the Holy Spirit present to your conscience and thus working out your own salvation. The first is intuitive, requiring no action on the part of man. It is simply there as a given. The latter is concious on his part and may involve the conscious awareness of revelation, as well as the sacraments, but need not always do so - for instance in the case of non-believers who have sanctifying grace without knowledge of the Gospel. St. Paul described the latter individuals, non-Christians with sanctioning grace, as a law unto themselves - using them to illustrate why adherence to the external law or Torah was no longer required:
Romans 2:14-16
When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law unto themselves. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all.
Romans 2:26-29
So, if those who are uncircumcised keep the requirements of the law, will not their uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? Then those who are physically uncircumcised but keep the law will condemn you that have the written code and circumcision but break the law. For a person is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is true circumcision something external and physical. Rather, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly, and real circumcision is a matter of the heart — it is spiritual and not literal. Such a person receives praise not from others but from God.
When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law unto themselves. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all.
Romans 2:26-29
So, if those who are uncircumcised keep the requirements of the law, will not their uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? Then those who are physically uncircumcised but keep the law will condemn you that have the written code and circumcision but break the law. For a person is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is true circumcision something external and physical. Rather, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly, and real circumcision is a matter of the heart — it is spiritual and not literal. Such a person receives praise not from others but from God.
So firstly, we have prevenient grace - which is instinctive in every person's conscience. This precedes human decision. It exists prior to and without reference to anything humans may have done, thus making it intuitive. We are simply given it by God on account of us being human beings made in his image and sharing the humanity of His divine Son.
From the Council of Trent:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevenient_grace
The Synod furthermore declares, that in adults, the beginning of the said Justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God, through Jesus Christ, that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits existing on their parts, they are called; that so they, who by sins were alienated from God, may be disposed through His quickening and assisting grace, to convert themselves to their own justification, by freely assenting to and co-operating with that said grace
Prevenient grace could be compared a bit to Buddha-Nature: everybody has prevenient grace, both Christians and Non-Christians, but not everyone "converts themselves to their own justification" (works out their own salvation) by freely deciding to assent to and co-operate with this prevenient grace through a faithful adherence to conscience and the inner law of the Spirit.
The Catholic mystic Blessed Jan van Ruysbroeck compared prevenient grace to sunshine. Here is how he described the same process of justification above, in mystical terms:
"...God being a common good, and His boundless love being common to all...his grace is common to all men, whether Pagan or Jew, whether good or evil. Thus God is a common light and a common splendour, enlightening heaven and earth, and every man.
God contemplates Himself and all things in an Eternal Now that has neither beginning nor end. God loves without limit and this puts a loving person most securely at peace. In the deeps of his ground [conscience] the spiritual man knows and feels nothing, in soul or body, but a singular radiance with sensible well-being and all pervading savour. This possession is a simple and abysmal tasting of all good and of eternal life; and in this tasting we are swallowed up above reason and without reason, in the deep Quiet of the Godhead, which is never moved...
And therefrom follows the last point that can be put into words, that is, when the spirit beholds a Darkness into which it cannot enter with the reason. And there it feels itself dead and lost to itself, and one with God without difference and without distinction.
God is a flowing and ebbing sea which ceaselessly flows out into all his beloved...and which flows back with all those upon whom he has bestowed his gifts in heaven and on earth, together with all they possess or are capable of.
This is that Wayless Being which all fervent interior spirits have chosen above all things, that dark stillness in which all lovers lose their way. If we could prepare ourselves through virtue in the ways I have shown, we would at once strip ourselves of our bodies and flow into the wild waves of the Sea, from which no creature could ever draw us back.
God [in the form of his prevenient grace] is more interior to us than we are to ourselves. His acting in us is nearer and more inward than our own actions. God works in us from inside outwards; creatures work on us from the outside.
When love has carried us above and beyond all things, Into the Divine Dark [Within], We receive in peace the Incomprehensible Light, Enfolding us and penetrating us. What is this Light, If it be not a contemplation of the Infinite, And an intuition of Eternity?
The indrawing attraction drags us out of ourselves, And calls us to be melted away and naughted in the Unity. And in this indrawing attraction we feel that God wills that we should be His, And for this we must abnegate ourselves and let our beatitude be accomplished in Him. But when He attracts us by flowing out towards us, He gives us over to ourselves and makes us free, And sets us in Time...."
- Blessed John Ruysbroeck (1293 – 1381), Flemish Catholic mystic
God contemplates Himself and all things in an Eternal Now that has neither beginning nor end. God loves without limit and this puts a loving person most securely at peace. In the deeps of his ground [conscience] the spiritual man knows and feels nothing, in soul or body, but a singular radiance with sensible well-being and all pervading savour. This possession is a simple and abysmal tasting of all good and of eternal life; and in this tasting we are swallowed up above reason and without reason, in the deep Quiet of the Godhead, which is never moved...
And therefrom follows the last point that can be put into words, that is, when the spirit beholds a Darkness into which it cannot enter with the reason. And there it feels itself dead and lost to itself, and one with God without difference and without distinction.
God is a flowing and ebbing sea which ceaselessly flows out into all his beloved...and which flows back with all those upon whom he has bestowed his gifts in heaven and on earth, together with all they possess or are capable of.
This is that Wayless Being which all fervent interior spirits have chosen above all things, that dark stillness in which all lovers lose their way. If we could prepare ourselves through virtue in the ways I have shown, we would at once strip ourselves of our bodies and flow into the wild waves of the Sea, from which no creature could ever draw us back.
God [in the form of his prevenient grace] is more interior to us than we are to ourselves. His acting in us is nearer and more inward than our own actions. God works in us from inside outwards; creatures work on us from the outside.
When love has carried us above and beyond all things, Into the Divine Dark [Within], We receive in peace the Incomprehensible Light, Enfolding us and penetrating us. What is this Light, If it be not a contemplation of the Infinite, And an intuition of Eternity?
The indrawing attraction drags us out of ourselves, And calls us to be melted away and naughted in the Unity. And in this indrawing attraction we feel that God wills that we should be His, And for this we must abnegate ourselves and let our beatitude be accomplished in Him. But when He attracts us by flowing out towards us, He gives us over to ourselves and makes us free, And sets us in Time...."
- Blessed John Ruysbroeck (1293 – 1381), Flemish Catholic mystic
So that intuitive impulse alone is not sufficient, if not embraced and acted upon by the individual. If it is embraced and acted upon, then prevenient grace becomes sanctifying grace, which leads to salvation, union with God or rather the Beatific Vision:
http://www.encyclopedia.com/article-1G2-3407701215/beatific-vision.html
Grace is thus like a spiritual impulse of God, a spiritual energy, instinctively available to everyone but to reap its sanctifying reward a person needs to embrace and not resist its pull, like allowing yourself to be carried away by a river without resisting.
Since prevenient grace is available to everyone, non-Christians (in the Catholic understanding) can be saved so long as they are sincerely searching for the truth by heeding their consciences:
"...The universality of salvation means that it is granted not only to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church. Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all. But it is clear that today, as in the past, many people do not have an opportunity to come to know or accept the gospel revelation or to enter the Church. The social and cultural conditions in which they live do not permit this, and frequently they have been brought up in other religious traditions. For such people salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his Sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit. It enables each person to attain salvation through his or her free cooperation..."
- St. Pope John Paul II, Redemptoris Missio (1990)
"...The Holy Spirit is not only present in other religions through authentic expressions of prayer. The Spirits presence and activity, as I wrote in the Encyclical Letter Redemptoris missio, affect not only individuals but also society and history, peoples, cultures and religions (n. 28).
Normally, it will be in the sincere practice of what is good in their own religious traditions and by following the dictates of their own conscience that the members of other religions respond positively to Gods invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ, even while they do not recognize or acknowledge him as their Saviour (cf. Ad gentes, nn. 3, 9, 11)...
- St. Pope John Paul II, Address 1998
- St. Pope John Paul II, Redemptoris Missio (1990)
"...The Holy Spirit is not only present in other religions through authentic expressions of prayer. The Spirits presence and activity, as I wrote in the Encyclical Letter Redemptoris missio, affect not only individuals but also society and history, peoples, cultures and religions (n. 28).
Normally, it will be in the sincere practice of what is good in their own religious traditions and by following the dictates of their own conscience that the members of other religions respond positively to Gods invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ, even while they do not recognize or acknowledge him as their Saviour (cf. Ad gentes, nn. 3, 9, 11)...
- St. Pope John Paul II, Address 1998
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Here is another description of grace by Blessed Ruysbroeck:
"...The grace of God is to God himself as sunlight is to the sun — a means and a way leading us to the latter. It therefore shines within us in a simple, one-fold way and makes us deiform, that is, like God. This likeness constantly sinks away, dying in God and becoming and remaining one with him, for charity makes us become one with God and causes us to remain living in union with him.
This brightness is so great that the loving contemplative, in his ground wherein he rests, sees and feels nothing but an incomprehensible Light; and through that Simple Nudity which enfolds all things, he finds himself and feels himself to be that same Light by which he sees and nothing else. . . . Blessed are the eyes which are thus seeing, for they possess eternal life.
And in this light Christ says to man’s desire: Make haste and come down, for to-day I must abide at thy house. This hasty descent, to which he is summoned by God, is nothing else than a descent through desire and through love into the abyss of the Godhead, which no intelligence can reach in the created light. But where intelligence remains without, desire and love go in. When the soul is thus stretched towards God, by intention and by love, above everything that it can understand, then it rests and dwells in God, and God in it.
When the soul climbs with desire above the multiplicity of creatures, and above the works of the senses, and above the light of nature, then it meets Christ in the light of faith, and becomes enlightened, and confesses that God is unknowable and incomprehensible. When it stretches itself with longing towards this incomprehensible God, then it meets Christ, and is filled with His gifts. And when it loves and rests above all gifts, and above itself, and above all creatures, then it dwells in God, and God dwells in it...."
- Blessed Jan van Ruysbroeck (1293 – 1381), Flemish Catholic mystic
This brightness is so great that the loving contemplative, in his ground wherein he rests, sees and feels nothing but an incomprehensible Light; and through that Simple Nudity which enfolds all things, he finds himself and feels himself to be that same Light by which he sees and nothing else. . . . Blessed are the eyes which are thus seeing, for they possess eternal life.
And in this light Christ says to man’s desire: Make haste and come down, for to-day I must abide at thy house. This hasty descent, to which he is summoned by God, is nothing else than a descent through desire and through love into the abyss of the Godhead, which no intelligence can reach in the created light. But where intelligence remains without, desire and love go in. When the soul is thus stretched towards God, by intention and by love, above everything that it can understand, then it rests and dwells in God, and God in it.
When the soul climbs with desire above the multiplicity of creatures, and above the works of the senses, and above the light of nature, then it meets Christ in the light of faith, and becomes enlightened, and confesses that God is unknowable and incomprehensible. When it stretches itself with longing towards this incomprehensible God, then it meets Christ, and is filled with His gifts. And when it loves and rests above all gifts, and above itself, and above all creatures, then it dwells in God, and God dwells in it...."
- Blessed Jan van Ruysbroeck (1293 – 1381), Flemish Catholic mystic
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
"Antinomianism
Antinomianism comes from the Greek meaning lawless. In Christian theology it is a pejorative term for the teaching that Christians are under no obligation to obey the laws of ethics or morality. Few, if any, would explicitly call themselves "antinomian," hence, it is usually a charge leveled by one group against an opposing group.
Antinomianism may be viewed as the polar opposite of legalism, the notion that obedience to a code of religious law is necessary for salvation. In this sense, both antinomianism and legalism are considered errant extremes."
What you described is not Antinomianism see above...
However your Idea contains some good points, though I have never heard that our conscience is a distinct part of us.
Is a sin a sin? even when the perpetrator does not know it is? or is evil an absolute?
as soon as you measure by Conscience alone, you remove any measure of Good or Bad except your own.
It seems to me that conscience is a learnt attribute, it is taught by contact with others, through ones faith , by society at large and by experience.
Not every one, nor every society nor religion, is ruled by the same concept of ethics or laws.
What is essential to a Christian, a Muslim and a Jew differ substantially.
Antinomianism comes from the Greek meaning lawless. In Christian theology it is a pejorative term for the teaching that Christians are under no obligation to obey the laws of ethics or morality. Few, if any, would explicitly call themselves "antinomian," hence, it is usually a charge leveled by one group against an opposing group.
Antinomianism may be viewed as the polar opposite of legalism, the notion that obedience to a code of religious law is necessary for salvation. In this sense, both antinomianism and legalism are considered errant extremes."
What you described is not Antinomianism see above...
However your Idea contains some good points, though I have never heard that our conscience is a distinct part of us.
Is a sin a sin? even when the perpetrator does not know it is? or is evil an absolute?
as soon as you measure by Conscience alone, you remove any measure of Good or Bad except your own.
It seems to me that conscience is a learnt attribute, it is taught by contact with others, through ones faith , by society at large and by experience.
Not every one, nor every society nor religion, is ruled by the same concept of ethics or laws.
What is essential to a Christian, a Muslim and a Jew differ substantially.
So antinomianism doesn't use the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (grace) as an argument of "once saved, always saved?" (I hope you can understand my confusion here.)
How might those who do not recognize or acknowledge the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as Jesus Christ's Grace describe this situation? (If you don't feel comfortable speculating about this, just say so.)
Thanks.
Well, the Church has an official name for this situation - it is called "baptism by implicit desire" or "baptism of the spirit". It is a doctrinal teaching, actually, with a few 'cardinal' signs, so to speak:
The Catholic Encyclopedia (1913)
“The Catholic Church has ever taught that nothing else is needed to obtain justification than an act of perfect charity and of contrition. Whoever, under the impulse of actual grace, elicits these acts receives immediately the gift of sanctifying grace, and is numbered among the children of God. Should he die in these dispositions, he will assuredly attain heaven.”
“The Catholic Church has ever taught that nothing else is needed to obtain justification than an act of perfect charity and of contrition. Whoever, under the impulse of actual grace, elicits these acts receives immediately the gift of sanctifying grace, and is numbered among the children of God. Should he die in these dispositions, he will assuredly attain heaven.”
At its basis, that is it - for ordinary folk and even contemplatives at the most simple level. For those who go further and strive to become "contemplatives" in this life (rather than living a merely lay life and experiencing the Beatific Vision in the next), you get into the area of Catholic mysticism proper and I've discussed this in numerous prior posts.
Further, the Church does give some added criterions one might look for, both in an individual and a communal sense. See this from Pope Francis' 2013 exhortation Evangelii Gaudium:
http://w2.vatican.va/content/france...vangelii-gaudium.html#Interreligious_dialogue
254. Non-Christians, by God’s gracious initiative, when they are faithful to their own consciences, can live “justified by the grace of God”,[199] and thus be “associated to the paschal mystery of Jesus Christ”.[200] But due to the sacramental dimension of sanctifying grace, God’s working in them tends to produce signs and rites, sacred expressions which in turn bring others to a communitarian experience of journeying towards God.[201] While these lack the meaning and efficacy of the sacraments instituted by Christ, they can be channels which the Holy Spirit raises up in order to liberate non-Christians from atheistic immanentism or from purely individual religious experiences. The same Spirit everywhere brings forth various forms of practical wisdom which help people to bear suffering and to live in greater peace and harmony. As Christians, we can also benefit from these treasures built up over many centuries, which can help us better to live our own beliefs.
A Vatican document you may want to read (though it is very long) is this one, it is pertinent to what you are asking. It goes into this with a bit more context than the above
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...on_cfaith_doc_20090520_legge-naturale_en.html
INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION
In Search of a Universal Ethic:
A New Look at the Natural Law *
(2009)
Some key excerpts:
Chapter 1: Convergences
1.1. The wisdom traditions and religions of the world
12. In diverse cultures, people have progressively elaborated and developed traditions of wisdom in which they express and transmit their vision of the world as well as their thoughtful perception of the place that man holds in society and the cosmos. Before all conceptual theorizing, these wisdom traditions, which are often of a religious nature, convey an experience that identifies what favors and what hinders the full blossoming of personal life and the smooth running of social life. They constitute a type of “cultural capital” available in the search for a common wisdom necessary for responding to contemporary ethical challenges. According to the Christian faith, these traditions of wisdom, in spite of their limitations and sometimes even their errors, capture a reflection of the divine wisdom at work in the hearts of human beings. They call for attention and respect...
The form and extent of these traditions can vary considerably. Nevertheless, they testify to the existence of a patrimony of moral values common to all human beings, no matter how these values are justified within a particular worldview. For example, the “golden rule” (“And what you hate, do not do to anyone” [Tob 4:15]) is found in one form or another in the majority of wisdom traditions(7). Furthermore, these traditions generally agree in recognizing that the great ethical rules not only impose themselves on a specific human group, but also hold true for each individual and for all peoples. In fact, several traditions recognize that these universal moral behaviours are demanded by the very nature of man: they express the manner by which he is to enter, in a creative and harmonious way, into a cosmic or metaphysical order that transcends him and gives meaning to his life. This order is, in fact, filled with an immanent wisdom. It carries a moral message that human beings are capable of discerning.
13. In the Hindu traditions, the world – the cosmos as well as human societies – is regulated by an order or fundamental law (dharma), which one must respect in order not to cause serious imbalances. Dharma then defines the socio-religious obligations of man. In its specificity, the moral teaching of Hinduism is understood in the light of the fundamental doctrines of the Upanishads: belief in an indefinite cycle of transmigrations (samsāra), with the idea that good and bad actions committed during the present life (karman) have an influence on successive rebirths. These doctrines have important consequences for one’s behaviour with respect to others: they entail a high degree of goodness and tolerance, a sense of disinterested action for the benefit of others, as well as the practice of non-violence (ahimsā). The principal current of Hinduism distinguishes between two bodies of texts: śruti (“that which is understood”, namely, revelation) and smrti (“that which one remembers”, namely, tradition). The ethical prescriptions are especially found in the smrti, most particularly in the dharmaśātra (of which the most important is the mānava dharmaśātra or laws of Manu, ca. 200-100 B.C.). Besides the basic principle according to which “the immemorial custom is the transcendent law approved by sacred scripture and the codes of the divine legislators (consequently, all men of the three principal classes, who respect the supreme spirit that is in them, must always conform themselves with diligence to the immemorial custom”)(8), one also finds an equivalent practice of the golden rule: “I will tell you what is the essence of the greatest good of the human being. The man who practices the religion (dharma) of do no harm to anyone without exception (ahimsā) acquires the greatest good. This man is the master of the three passions: cupidity, anger and avarice, and renouncing them in relation to all that exists, acquires success. … This man who considers all creatures like ‘himself’ and treats them as his own ‘self’, laying down the punishing rod and dominating his anger completely, assures for himself the attainment of happiness. … One will not do to another what one considers harmful to oneself. This, in brief, is the rule of virtue. … In refusing and in giving, in abundance and in misery, in the agreeable and the disagreeable, one will judge all the consequences by considering one’s own ‘self’”(9). Several precepts of the Hindu tradition can be placed in parallel with the requirements of the Decalogue(10).
14. One generally defines Buddhism by the four “noble truths” taught by the Buddha after his enlightenment: 1) reality is suffering and lack of satisfaction; 2) the origin of suffering is desire; 3) the cessation of suffering is possible (by the extinction of desire); 4) a way exists leading to the cessation of suffering. This way is the “noble eightfold path” which consists in the practice of discipline, concentration and wisdom. On the ethical level, the favorable actions can be summarized in the five precepts (śila, sīla): 1) do not injure living beings nor take away life; 2) do not take what is not given; 3) do not engage in immoral sexual conduct; 4) do not use false or lying words; 5) do not ingest intoxicating products that diminish mastery over oneself. The profound altruism of the Buddhist tradition, which is expressed in a resolute attitude of non-violence, amicable benevolence and compassion, thus agrees with the golden rule.
15. Chinese civilization is profoundly marked by the Taoism of Lâozî or Lao-Tse (or Tzu) (6th century B.C.). According to Lao-Tse, the Way or Dào is the primordial principle, immanent within the entire universe. It is an indiscernible principle of permanent change under the action of two contrary and complementary poles, the yïn and the yáng. It is up to man to espouse this natural process of transformation, to let himself go in the flux of time by means of the attitude of non-action (wú-wéi). The search for harmony with nature, inseparably material and spiritual, is thus at the heart of the Taoist ethic. As for Confucius (551-479 B.C.), “Master Kong”, he attempts, on the occasion of a period of profound crisis, to restore order by respect for rites, founded on filial piety that must be at the heart of all social life. Social relations, in fact, take family relations as their model. Harmony is obtained by an ethic of the happy mean, in which the ritualized relation (the li), which places man into the natural order, is the measure of all things. The ideal to be attained is ren, the perfect virtue of humanity, achieved by self-control and benevolence towards others. “‘Reciprocity (shù)’: is not this the key word? That which you would not wish done to you, do not do to others”11. The practice of this rule expresses the way of heaven (Tiān Dào).
16. In the African traditions, the fundamental reality is life itself. It is the most precious good, and the ideal of man consists not only in living to old age sheltered from cares, but most of all in remaining, even after death, a vital power continually reinforced and vivified in and by his progeny. Life is, in fact, a dramatic experience. Man, the microcosm at the heart of the macrocosm, intensely lives the drama of the confrontation between life and death. The mission that falls to him of assuring the victory of life over death, orients and determines his ethical action. In a consistent and rational ethical horizon, man, therefore, must identify the allies of life, win them to his cause and thus assure his survival that is, at the same time, the victory of life. Such is the profound meaning of traditional African religions....
1.1. The wisdom traditions and religions of the world
12. In diverse cultures, people have progressively elaborated and developed traditions of wisdom in which they express and transmit their vision of the world as well as their thoughtful perception of the place that man holds in society and the cosmos. Before all conceptual theorizing, these wisdom traditions, which are often of a religious nature, convey an experience that identifies what favors and what hinders the full blossoming of personal life and the smooth running of social life. They constitute a type of “cultural capital” available in the search for a common wisdom necessary for responding to contemporary ethical challenges. According to the Christian faith, these traditions of wisdom, in spite of their limitations and sometimes even their errors, capture a reflection of the divine wisdom at work in the hearts of human beings. They call for attention and respect...
The form and extent of these traditions can vary considerably. Nevertheless, they testify to the existence of a patrimony of moral values common to all human beings, no matter how these values are justified within a particular worldview. For example, the “golden rule” (“And what you hate, do not do to anyone” [Tob 4:15]) is found in one form or another in the majority of wisdom traditions(7). Furthermore, these traditions generally agree in recognizing that the great ethical rules not only impose themselves on a specific human group, but also hold true for each individual and for all peoples. In fact, several traditions recognize that these universal moral behaviours are demanded by the very nature of man: they express the manner by which he is to enter, in a creative and harmonious way, into a cosmic or metaphysical order that transcends him and gives meaning to his life. This order is, in fact, filled with an immanent wisdom. It carries a moral message that human beings are capable of discerning.
13. In the Hindu traditions, the world – the cosmos as well as human societies – is regulated by an order or fundamental law (dharma), which one must respect in order not to cause serious imbalances. Dharma then defines the socio-religious obligations of man. In its specificity, the moral teaching of Hinduism is understood in the light of the fundamental doctrines of the Upanishads: belief in an indefinite cycle of transmigrations (samsāra), with the idea that good and bad actions committed during the present life (karman) have an influence on successive rebirths. These doctrines have important consequences for one’s behaviour with respect to others: they entail a high degree of goodness and tolerance, a sense of disinterested action for the benefit of others, as well as the practice of non-violence (ahimsā). The principal current of Hinduism distinguishes between two bodies of texts: śruti (“that which is understood”, namely, revelation) and smrti (“that which one remembers”, namely, tradition). The ethical prescriptions are especially found in the smrti, most particularly in the dharmaśātra (of which the most important is the mānava dharmaśātra or laws of Manu, ca. 200-100 B.C.). Besides the basic principle according to which “the immemorial custom is the transcendent law approved by sacred scripture and the codes of the divine legislators (consequently, all men of the three principal classes, who respect the supreme spirit that is in them, must always conform themselves with diligence to the immemorial custom”)(8), one also finds an equivalent practice of the golden rule: “I will tell you what is the essence of the greatest good of the human being. The man who practices the religion (dharma) of do no harm to anyone without exception (ahimsā) acquires the greatest good. This man is the master of the three passions: cupidity, anger and avarice, and renouncing them in relation to all that exists, acquires success. … This man who considers all creatures like ‘himself’ and treats them as his own ‘self’, laying down the punishing rod and dominating his anger completely, assures for himself the attainment of happiness. … One will not do to another what one considers harmful to oneself. This, in brief, is the rule of virtue. … In refusing and in giving, in abundance and in misery, in the agreeable and the disagreeable, one will judge all the consequences by considering one’s own ‘self’”(9). Several precepts of the Hindu tradition can be placed in parallel with the requirements of the Decalogue(10).
14. One generally defines Buddhism by the four “noble truths” taught by the Buddha after his enlightenment: 1) reality is suffering and lack of satisfaction; 2) the origin of suffering is desire; 3) the cessation of suffering is possible (by the extinction of desire); 4) a way exists leading to the cessation of suffering. This way is the “noble eightfold path” which consists in the practice of discipline, concentration and wisdom. On the ethical level, the favorable actions can be summarized in the five precepts (śila, sīla): 1) do not injure living beings nor take away life; 2) do not take what is not given; 3) do not engage in immoral sexual conduct; 4) do not use false or lying words; 5) do not ingest intoxicating products that diminish mastery over oneself. The profound altruism of the Buddhist tradition, which is expressed in a resolute attitude of non-violence, amicable benevolence and compassion, thus agrees with the golden rule.
15. Chinese civilization is profoundly marked by the Taoism of Lâozî or Lao-Tse (or Tzu) (6th century B.C.). According to Lao-Tse, the Way or Dào is the primordial principle, immanent within the entire universe. It is an indiscernible principle of permanent change under the action of two contrary and complementary poles, the yïn and the yáng. It is up to man to espouse this natural process of transformation, to let himself go in the flux of time by means of the attitude of non-action (wú-wéi). The search for harmony with nature, inseparably material and spiritual, is thus at the heart of the Taoist ethic. As for Confucius (551-479 B.C.), “Master Kong”, he attempts, on the occasion of a period of profound crisis, to restore order by respect for rites, founded on filial piety that must be at the heart of all social life. Social relations, in fact, take family relations as their model. Harmony is obtained by an ethic of the happy mean, in which the ritualized relation (the li), which places man into the natural order, is the measure of all things. The ideal to be attained is ren, the perfect virtue of humanity, achieved by self-control and benevolence towards others. “‘Reciprocity (shù)’: is not this the key word? That which you would not wish done to you, do not do to others”11. The practice of this rule expresses the way of heaven (Tiān Dào).
16. In the African traditions, the fundamental reality is life itself. It is the most precious good, and the ideal of man consists not only in living to old age sheltered from cares, but most of all in remaining, even after death, a vital power continually reinforced and vivified in and by his progeny. Life is, in fact, a dramatic experience. Man, the microcosm at the heart of the macrocosm, intensely lives the drama of the confrontation between life and death. The mission that falls to him of assuring the victory of life over death, orients and determines his ethical action. In a consistent and rational ethical horizon, man, therefore, must identify the allies of life, win them to his cause and thus assure his survival that is, at the same time, the victory of life. Such is the profound meaning of traditional African religions....
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Catholics would not agree with you here my friend, see the above. Conscience is not learned for us, it is intrinsic. Yes, it matures and we must "form" it properly but its basis is there and God-given. The natural law is written upon it. Sure, conscience will lead down different paths based upon different experiences in life, different beliefs, but at heart salvation consists for everyone in the same dispositions of soul stemming from a sincere, inward search for the Absolute Truth.
We do believe in a universal ethic - natural law, which is accessible to the conscience of everyone under the influence of the Holy Spirit. The forms are different and diverse, the teachings (metaphysically) are all distinct but there is a common "moral" core in all wisdom traditions, according to Catholic Christianity:
"...Every quest of the human spirit for truth and goodness, and in the last analysis for God, is inspired by the Holy Spirit. The various religions arose precisely from this primordial human openness to God. At their origins we often find founders who, with the help of God's Spirit, achieved a deeper religious experience. Handed on to others, this experience took form in the doctrines, rites and precepts of the various religions. In every authentic religious experience, the most characteristic expression is prayer. Because of the human spirit's constitutive openness to God's action of urging it to self-transcendence, we can hold that "every authentic prayer is called forth by the Holy Spirit, who is mysteriously present in the heart of every person". We experienced an eloquent manifestation of this truth at the World Day of Prayer for Peace on 27 October 1986 in Assisi, and on other similar occasions of great spiritual intensity. The Holy Spirit is not only present in other religions through authentic expressions of prayer. "The Spirit's presence and activity", as I wrote in the Encyclical Letter Redemptoris missio, "affect not only individuals but also society and history, peoples, cultures and religions...
This doctrine leads us to affirm that, though the routes taken may be different, “there is but a single goal to which is directed the deepest aspiration of the human spirit as expressed in its quest for God and also in its quest, through its tending towards God, for the full dimension of its humanity, or in other words, for the full meaning of human life” (Redemptor hominis, n. 11)....
Indeed, as the Second Vatican Council teaches, “since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of coming into contact, in a way known to God, with the paschal mystery” (Gaudium et spes, n. 22).
This possibility is achieved through sincere, inward adherence to the Truth, generous self-giving to one’s neighbour and the search for the Absolute inspired by the Spirit of God. A ray of the divine Wisdom is also shown through the fulfilment of the precepts and practices that conform to the moral law and to authentic religious sense..."
- St. Pope John Paul II, General Audience Address, September 16, 1998, Vatican
This doctrine leads us to affirm that, though the routes taken may be different, “there is but a single goal to which is directed the deepest aspiration of the human spirit as expressed in its quest for God and also in its quest, through its tending towards God, for the full dimension of its humanity, or in other words, for the full meaning of human life” (Redemptor hominis, n. 11)....
Indeed, as the Second Vatican Council teaches, “since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of coming into contact, in a way known to God, with the paschal mystery” (Gaudium et spes, n. 22).
This possibility is achieved through sincere, inward adherence to the Truth, generous self-giving to one’s neighbour and the search for the Absolute inspired by the Spirit of God. A ray of the divine Wisdom is also shown through the fulfilment of the precepts and practices that conform to the moral law and to authentic religious sense..."
- St. Pope John Paul II, General Audience Address, September 16, 1998, Vatican
A huge part of it:
"...Compassion is a wound in the heart [another Judaeo-Christian term for conscience] whence flows a common love to all mankind and which cannot be healed so long as any suffering lives in man..."
- Blessed Jan van Ruysbroeck (1293 – 1381), Flemish Catholic mystic
- Blessed Jan van Ruysbroeck (1293 – 1381), Flemish Catholic mystic
The heart seems to work better with this wound.
Thank you, @Vouthon , I have much reading and digesting to do.
If you have another questions, please don't hesitate to ask me
JesusFreaKMyHero1
Member
Does anyone else think we have way too many "isms" in this world. It sounds silly to me to say you were a Christian and then say we live by our consciences. We know what right and wrong is....Hello!!! Just because your conscience is clear doesn't mean that you didn't do something wrong. Christians should know that what's right and wrong is determined by God, not man. We live by a the highest law.