Response to a post (About myself being Gender Fluid)

[Kfox]

Because we live in a society where we have certain expectations about how people are supposed to look in order for us to assume or assign their gender. This isn't that difficult to understand.

Oh stop it with the societal pressure excuse, if these people were in the business of catering to the expectations of society, we wouldn't have men trying to get into women's places because they identify as women. It's gotta be something else.

 

[Kfox]

It really doesn't matter too much to me.

It may not matter to you, but there are people who will say the Jamaican is not white even though he says he feels white, but the biological male is a woman because he feels like a woman. I find this line of thinking to be inconsistent; do you? If not, tell me where I'm going wrong; what am I missing here?

 

[Kfox]

It is related to gender in the way that I said, but one does not define the other. Gender as a concept refers to the meanings and social expectations that we attach to biological characteristics, as a society.

the person I was debating with claims there has never been a connection between gender and biological sex. Your view appears to be different.

 

[crossfire]

It may not matter to you, but there are people who will say the Jamaican is not white even though he says he feels white, but the biological male is a woman because he feels like a woman. I find this line of thinking to be inconsistent; do you? If not, tell me where I'm going wrong; what am I missing here?

Do you not understand the difference between having dark skin and being part of a culture?

 

[crossfire]

I never said it isn't real because I can't see it. We can measure the effects of Santa clause during Christmas; does that make him real? Provide an example of peer pressure effecting anything without people involved.

By definition, peer pressure requires people! (Peers are people. We are social creatures.)

 

[Kfox]

I agree. Once a person identifies as a woman, they are a woman.

Going by that logic, once I believe in Santa Clause, Santa becomes real

You've repeatedly suggesting doing away with gender (which I agree with) and instead referring to people by biology (which is a terrible idea).

I never said it should be imposed.

Not really. They just are now understanding that being a woman or being a man can be a matter of self-identification. That idea wasn't as pervasive before,

The idea didn't exist before.

You don't have to remember it. You can literally just ask people and they'll tell you. This argument is as silly as saying "So, what, we're all supposed to have different names? How am I supposed to remember thousands of different names??"

I mean, seriously, you do it every day. It's not hard. And things like neo-pronouns are going to be vanishingly rare.

The only pronouns used when talking to somebody is "you" and "your"; that's the way the English language works. Male/female pronouns are only used when I are talking to somebody else about you, at which time you are not a part of the conversation. If you are not a part of the conversation, how am I supposed to know which pronouns to use when talking about you to someone else?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Oh stop it with the societal pressure excuse,

How is it an excuse? Do you think these people have extensive cosmetic surgery for larks?

if these people were in the business of catering to the expectations of society, we wouldn't have men trying to get into women's places because they identify as women. It's gotta be something else.

Thank you for your incredibly self-serving and shallow analysis. I'll stick with my guns on this one. The primary reason people have cosmetic surgery is to conform to an idea of what they believe they SHOULD look like, and what we believe we SHOULD look like is largely shaped by social expectations. This is understood by anyone with even a glancing familiarity with this subject.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Going by that logic, once I believe in Santa Clause, Santa becomes real

And if deep frying an onion makes a tasty snack, then deep-frying a doorknob does as well.

It's almost as if two things can be different and have different outcomes based on context. Weird.

I never said it should be imposed.

It's the logical conclusion of your argument.

The idea didn't exist before.

Yes, it did. The idea of social expectations being divided along gender lines, and of self-identifying as many things, pre-dates the concept of gender.

The only pronouns used when talking to somebody is "you" and "your"; that's the way the English language works.

So you have never, ever referred to anyone as "him" or "her"?

Male/female pronouns are only used when I are talking to somebody else about you,

Nope. You can use them when directly referring to people when they are around, too.

at which time you are not a part of the conversation.

Yes you can be.

If you are not a part of the conversation, how am I supposed to know which pronouns to use when talking about you to someone else?

If I don't know your name, how could I possibly use your name in a conversation with somebody else?

I dunno, Mr Holmes. It's a total mystery. If only there were some way of asking people. Clearly this whole concept of everyone having their own specific, individual name is a total nonsense and should be dismissed, because discerning a person's name is literally impossible without going through the abject misery, exhaustive effort and excruciating pain of daring to ask them what it is. Nobody should be forced to go through such an arduous task.

 

[Orbit]

I never said it isn't real because I can't see it. We can measure the effects of Santa clause during Christmas; does that make him real? Provide an example of peer pressure effecting anything without people involved.

Peer pressure is a social phenomenon, therefore people are involved. Your "Santa" example doesn't work--Santa is folklore, not a social psychological phenomenon.

 

[Kfox]

Do you not understand the difference between having dark skin and being part of a culture?

Yes. What does that have to do with the question at hand?

By definition, peer pressure requires people! (Peers are people. We are social creatures.)

That doesn't mean peer pressure has a physical existence.

 

[crossfire]

Yes. What does that have to do with the question at hand?

You were asking about the inconsistencies of someone identifying with a race that doesn't match their skin color. I pointed to the difference between skin color and identifying with a culture. I'm glad you can see the difference between the two.

That doesn't mean peer pressure has a physical existence.

It's a social thing, that influences the minds of people. Like-minded people tend to congregate socially. Is the mind a physical thing? Does social pressures influence minds? (Can you have an effect without a cause?)

 

[Kfox]

"Birth defects" ARE biological variances.

My mistake. I was unaware you were including birth defects under the umbrella of biological variances. Since that is the case, I take back whatever I might have previously agreed upon concerning biological variances.

As I have said before, multiple times now since you somehow don't seem to get it yet, the point is that these things do not preclude a person from belonging within certain categories. The fact that the majority of human beings are born with sight, or five fingers, or biological women have fallopian tubes, does NOT MEAN that those born WITHOUT sight, five fingers, or fallopian tubes are NOT humans or women.

I never suggested such people were not human. As I said before, just because there are exceptions to the rules does not mean there are no rules. The fact that I can come up with a scenario where killing puppies might be the right thing to do does not mean killing puppies is the right thing to do. You seem to believe that because there are exceptions to the rules, that there are no rules. This is perhaps something we will just have to agree to disagree on.

Correct. You would have to have sexually assaulted me both before and after, since you would be presuming I was a particular biological sex to begin with.

That does not make any sense. Why would I need to sexually assault you in order to presume your sex hasn’t changed over night?

We were talking about biological gender and how we classify it. The point is that these medical conditions DO NOT PREVENT A PERSON FROM BEING CLASSIFIED AS A CERTAIN BIOLOGICAL GENDER, so to say that being biologically male and/or biologically female is dependent on any one or a number of these features is false. That's the point.

Again; just because there are exceptions to the rule (swyer syndrome) does not take away from the fact that XX = female, XY = male.

No, they're trying to look like a particular GENDER. Once again, "looking like their sex" would be a misnomer to you, because - according to your definition - your sex is entirely related to biological characteristics. I'm not sure how a person can "look" like they have a vagina, or fallopian tubes. I'm not sure if you're aware, but you don't need XX chromosomes to wear a dress and makeup.

Not all women wear dress and makeup; many dress like men.

 

[Kfox]

And if deep frying an onion makes a tasty snack, then deep-frying a doorknob does as well.

That makes no sense. Just because you deep fry something does not mean it will taste good.

It's almost as if two things can be different and have different outcomes based on context. Weird.

My point is; just because you identify as something, does not mean you are that which you identify as,

It's the logical conclusion of your argument.

No it's not.

Yes, it did. The idea of social expectations being divided along gender lines, and of self-identifying as many things, pre-dates the concept of gender.

No; the idea of identifying as a woman makes you a woman. That idea has never existed before

So you have never, ever referred to anyone as "him" or "her"?

Not when I am talking to them

Nope. You can use them when directly referring to people when they are around, too.

Give an example of using a masculine or feminine pronoun when speaking to the person

 

[Kfox]

Peer pressure is a social phenomenon, therefore people are involved. Your "Santa" example doesn't work--Santa is folklore, not a social psychological phenomenon.

If peer pressure has an actual existence, what color is it? What texture is it?

 

[Kfox]

You were asking about the inconsistencies of someone identifying with a race that doesn't match their skin color. I pointed to the difference between skin color and identifying with a culture. I'm glad you can see the difference between the two.

There is an obvious difference between race and culture.

It's a social thing, that influences the minds of people. Like-minded people tend to congregate socially.

Agree.

Is the mind a physical thing?

No; the mind is what we call the thinking function of the physical brain

Does social pressures influence minds? (Can you have an effect without a cause?)

Yes.

 

[Orbit]

If peer pressure has an actual existence, what color is it? What texture is it?

What color are microbes? What does air look like? There are things that exist that you can’t see. Do subatomic particles exist, because the only way we can detect them is by measuring their effects, just like peer pressure.

 

[crossfire]

There is an obvious difference between race and culture.

Agree.

No; the mind is what we call the thinking function of the physical brain

Yes.

Peer pressure can produce visible effects. If it isn't real, then you have the conundrum of an effect without a cause, so unless you are comfortable with violating causality, peer pressure is real.

 

[Kfox]

What color are microbes? What does air look like? There are things that exist that you can’t see. Do subatomic particles exist, because the only way we can detect them is by measuring their effects, just like peer pressure.

Just because we may not have the technology to see subatomic particles doesn't mean they aren't able to be seen. Are you saying with future technology, we might be able to see peer pressure?

 

[Orbit]

Just because we may not have the technology to see subatomic particles doesn't mean they aren't able to be seen. Are you saying with future technology, we might be able to see peer pressure?

Sometimes I think this is all just an elaborate troll.

 

[Kfox]

Peer pressure can produce visible effects. If it isn't real, then you have the conundrum of an effect without a cause, so unless you are comfortable with violating causality, peer pressure is real.

No, the cause are the people providing the peer pressure.