Response to a post (About myself being Gender Fluid)

[Shadow Wolf]

I don't see anything particularly "masculine" about Ellish, honestly. She's just a young woman, barely can call her a tomboy. And since when does "feminine clothing" mean that it necessarily must be revealing? No wonder why so many young woman don't want to be seen as "feminine" or even women now.

I suppose if you aren't a metalhead amd not used to women growling and wailing and wearing black, skulls, spikes and chains with the guys she might seem a bit masculine. Maybe. Just don't bring in the few female horrorcore artists for comparison because all ground for the claim is lost again.

 

[Soandso]

I suppose if you aren't a metalhead amd not used to women growling and wailing and wearing black, skulls, spikes and chains with the guys she might seem a bit masculine. Maybe. Just don't bring in the few female horrorcore artists for comparison because all ground for the claim is lost again.

Ah, reminds me of artists like Tatiana Shmayluk who's a tiny little lady that can straight up sound like a dude at the drop of a hat. Super talented singer

 

[PureX]

I don't see anything particularly "masculine" about Ellish, honestly. She's just a young woman, barely can call her a tomboy. And since when does "feminine clothing" mean that it necessarily must be revealing? No wonder why so many young woman don't want to be seen as "feminine" or even women now.

A 15 year old girl made record producers interview for her for almost a year before choosing one. And she chose that one precisely because the middle aged CEO promised to allow her full creative control. And when the producer immediately set her up to work with the company pros in a professional studio, she went one time, spent one day there, and told them no more. That she and her brother would create all their music themselves, in their own home studio. Then, when they began to perform live, the producers suggested maybe having dancers, you know, like every other female pop singer prancing around on stage in skimpy outfits. And Billie nixed that idea completely. She created her own very non-revealing but strikingly original costumes and behaved like male rap and hip hop artists do on stage, instead.

A 15 year old girl did this. And she went on to insist the she be allowed to direct all her own music videos. These are things very few grown men have had the balls to do … backing down music industry honchos, taking on full creative responsibility, NOT playing the sex-kitten on stage to gain attention. And on top of all that, creating some of the first truly original pop music in decades. There are hard core rappers that bow in respect to Billie Eilish for her courage and savvy in an industry full of sharks.

She has more “man” in her than most men will ever have. Yet she also loves fashion and dressing up in very sexy girly-girl style when the occasion calls for it. And has done so for events and photo shoots for fashion magazines. She’s even created her own perfume. By now she’s met nearly every top tier performer, actor, singer, and even quite a few politicians, kings and queens. I believe she knows exactly what she’s talking about when she says that the “male“ side of her personality gains her more respect from powerful people than her female side does, and that she likes it. And uses it as it fits.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Ah, reminds me of artists like Tatiana Shmayluk who's a tiny little lady that can straight up sound like a dude at the drop of a hat. Super talented singer

I really like them, a reason I love being a metalhead because decades later it's still going hard, heavy and strong. Contemporary rock, pop and rap all very widely and largely and mostly suck now, and even country (I genre I don't like) got it's soul stolen by highly processed, formulaic crap.
But metal still remains the music that marches the legions of Hell to war. I don't carr for Jack Black, but he's right in that you can't kill the metal.
It's also a genre that has fused and blended well with so many other genres. And very easily it's the most diverse playlist I have, including far more cultural, age, race and gender diversity than any other genre-playlist I have. The only other one that comes close is the horrorcore. Everything else is predominantly being performed by and listened to by specific groups. Like classic music or religious hymns, electronic or grunge.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Ah, reminds me of artists like Tatiana Shmayluk who's a tiny little lady that can straight up sound like a dude at the drop of a hat. Super talented singer

I really like them, a reason I love being a metalhead because decades later it's still going hard, heavy and strong. Contemporary rock, pop and rap all very widely and largely and mostly suck now, and even country (I genre I don't like) got it's soul stolen by highly processed, formulaic crap.
But metal still remains the music that marches the legions of Hell to war. I don't carr for Jack Black, but he's right in that you can't kill the metal.

A 15 year old girl made record producers interview for her for almost a year before choosing one. And she chose that one precisely because the middle aged CEO promised to allow her full creative control. And when the producer immediately set her up to work with the company pros in a professional studio, she went one time, spent one day there, and told them no more. That she and her brother would create all their music themselves, in their own home studio. Then, when they began to perform live, the producers suggested maybe having dancers, you know, like every other female pop singer prancing around on stage in skimpy outfits. And Billie nixed that idea completely. She created her own very non-revealing but strikingly original costumes and behaved like male rap and hip hop artists do on stage, instead.

A 15 year old girl did this. And she went on to insist the she be allowed to direct all her own music videos. These are things very few grown men have had the balls to do … backing down music industry honchos, taking on full creative responsibility, NOT playing the sex-kitten on stage to gain attention. And on top of all that, creating some of the first truly original pop music in decades. There are hard core rappers that bow in respect to Billie Eilish for her courage and savvy in an industry full of sharks.

She has more “man” in her than most men will ever have. Yet she also loves fashion and dressing up in very sexy girly-girl style when the occasion calls for it. And has done so for events and photo shoots for fashion magazines. She’s even created her own perfume. By now she’s met nearly every top tier performer, actor, singer, and even quite a few politicians, kings and queens. I believe she knows exactly what she’s talking about when she says that the “male“ side of her personality gains her more respect from powerful people than her female side does, and that she likes it. And uses it as it fits.

Joan Jett and Lita Ford are partly why she could. Heart dealt with a lot of crap. Pat Benetar, Whitney Houston, Jannet Jackson, Dolly Parton, Halestorm, lots of women have been for decades fighting against producers, managers and executives in a very and highly misogynistic business world.
What you describing of Eilish is many bigger names over the past decade or so.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

A 15 year old girl made record producers interview for her for almost a year before choosing one. And she chose that one precisely because the middle aged CEO promised to allow her full creative control. And when the producer immediately set her up to work with the company pros in a professional studio, she went one time, spent one day there, and told them no more. That she and her brother would create all their music themselves, in their own home studio. Then, when they began to perform live, the producers suggested maybe having dancers, you know, like every other female pop singer prancing around on stage in skimpy outfits. And Billie nixed that idea completely. She created her own very non-revealing but strikingly original costumes and behaved like male rap and hip hop artists do on stage, instead.

A 15 year old girl did this. And she went on to insist the she be allowed to direct all her own music videos. These are things very few grown men have had the balls to do … backing down music industry honchos, taking on full creative responsibility, NOT playing the sex-kitten on stage to gain attention. And on top of all that, creating some of the first truly original pop music in decades. There are hard core rappers that bow in respect to Billie Eilish for her courage and savvy in an industry full of sharks.

She has more “man” in her than most men will ever have. Yet she also loves fashion and dressing up in very sexy girly-girl style when the occasion calls for it. And has done so for events and photo shoots for fashion magazines. She’s even created her own perfume. By now she’s met nearly every top tier performer, actor, singer, and even quite a few politicians, kings and queens. I believe she knows exactly what she’s talking about when she says that the “male“ side of her personality gains her more respect from powerful people than her female side does, and that she likes it. And uses it as it fits.

I get that you're a big fanboy and all (I am not a fan of hers and don't buy that she's magically more in control of her career than any other corporate pop star many years her senior is), but regardless of that, that's based on stereotypes, that assertiveness is a masculine trait. And you still keep associating femininity with being "sexy", "girly" and "dressing up". That's all stereotypes.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

don't buy that she's magically more in control of her career than any other corporate pop star many years her senior is

It's amazing that anyone still believes the artist is in control. Very frequently amd mostly, no, and we probably all like at least one artist or band who was killed off by record label overreaches.
Basically, where we've seen artists in control is things like the early days of punk and metal that included a subculture of encouraging bootlegging to spread ame circulate their music. But unlike the cassettes and cheap recorders of those bygone days today many of these self published musicians are using giant corporate media to share their music. That automatically gives them some degree of control, like cutting off those they deem unprofitable and forcing from the start grossly unfair compensation models.

 

[PureX]

Joan Jett and Lita Ford are partly why she could. Heart dealt with a lot of crap. Pat Benetar, Whitney Houston, Jannet Jackson, Dolly Parton, Halestorm, lots of women have been for decades fighting against producers, managers and executives in a very and highly misogynistic business world.
What you describing of Eilish is many bigger names over the past decade or so.

Yes, but Billie was 14 and 15 years old at the time, and didn't know anything about any of those other women's struggles. And yet she innately recognized her own need for creative autonomy. Mostly because she had been raised by parents that deliberately allowed and encouraged the creative spark within her.

But that's not really the point, here. The point is that Billie Eilish perceives herself to have a strong masculine side to her personality, that she can and does express to the world as a way of maintaining and sharing her creative autonomy. While she also recognizes a very feminine side of her personality that she shares with people she knows and cares about on a more personal and intimate level. And being that this is who she is, and how life 'works' for her, I think this is a positive example of someone being "gender-fluid" in a very good way. I don't know what that means for her on an intimate sexual level, and it's none of my business. And, anyway, she's young, so it's likely that she is still in a discovery process in that area of life.

I'm just sharing how and why I think the idea of someone being and declaring their "gender-fluidity" is a positive thing.

 

[PureX]

I get that you're a big fanboy and all (I am not a fan of hers and don't buy that she's magically more in control of her career than any other corporate pop star many years her senior is), but regardless of that, that's based on stereotypes, that assertiveness is a masculine trait. And you still keep associating femininity with being "sexy", "girly" and "dressing up". That's all stereotypes.

Your bias was obvious from your posts in the past, and is obvious from this one, as well. You don't like it when women take control. We get it.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

This is not something I arbitrarily designated, this is based in biological science. Whatever reason they have for designating it with disease or disorder is something biologists have determined; not me. Perhaps with a little research you can find out why.

Again, so you have no idea for the reason for the categorisation or what it means, you just assume it means something and refuse to budge from it. So, it's arbitrary.

As I have said before, the scientific consensus is on my side. Biological sex is bimodal, and rather than being defined rigidly by a limited number of specific features, it's merely a vague and very broad classification that encompasses a huge range of highly variable biological characteristics. I'm the one who accepts science here, not you.

 

[Kfox]

Again, so you have no idea for the reason for the categorisation or what it means, you just assume it means something and refuse to budge from it. So, it's arbitrary.

No. Biologists have decided to label human conditions that are the result of disease and disorder “syndrome”. I didn’t make up the name, I’m just telling you what they call it.

As I have said before, the scientific consensus is on my side.

Not when it comes to human conditions given the label “syndrome”.

Biological sex is bimodal, and rather than being defined rigidly by a limited number of specific features, it's merely a vague and very broad classification that encompasses a huge range of highly variable biological characteristics. I'm the one who accepts science here, not you.

On post #48 I explained what I believed bimodal to be, and if I recall correctly, you did not object to it. Are you changing your mind now? Are you claiming there are thousands of different biological sex categories? If so, other than male/female, what are some of the others?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

No. Biologists have decided to label human conditions that are the result of disease and disorder “syndrome”. I didn’t make up the name, I’m just telling you what they call it.

But you have no idea why.

Not when it comes to human conditions given the label “syndrome”.

Since you have no idea why they're called that, it's irrelevant. It's an arbitrary distinction, and one that doesn't prevent someone being classed as biologically male or female. A biological woman with Swyer syndrome is still a biological woman.

On post #48 I explained what I believed bimodal to be, and if I recall correctly, you did not object to it.

You're not recalling correctly, because I did object to it. I explicitly said that it was not quite correct.

Are you claiming there are thousands of different biological sex categories?

No. I have already been over what these categories mean twice now.

If so, other than male/female, what are some of the others?

I have never once claimed this.

You really need to understand an argument before responding to it. I have NEVER ONCE said anything akin to there being THOUSANDS of biological sex categories. I have, for several posts now, been explaining that the categories fall within a BIMODAL RANGE that include incredible variance, so trying to rigidly say that any one category is defined by a small selection of biological traits is false, and that it is far more complex than that.

Please try to pay attention. I know you're dealing with a lot of different posters here, so it can be hard to keep track, but you have to try harder to not assign arguments to people who have not made those arguments.

 

[crossfire]

No. Biologists have decided to label human conditions that are the result of disease and disorder “syndrome”. I didn’t make up the name, I’m just telling you what they call it.

Not when it comes to human conditions given the label “syndrome”.

On post #48 I explained what I believed bimodal to be, and if I recall correctly, you did not object to it. Are you changing your mind now? Are you claiming there are thousands of different biological sex categories? If so, other than male/female, what are some of the others?

There are two (out of many) different biological classifications being highlighted here: Karyotype and Phenotype. Karyotype refers to the DNA and genes, whereas Phenotype refers to how the physical traits appear in the body. Sometimes the phenotype does not match the karyotype typically associated with that phenotype, as in the case of XY females, to name just one example (there are many others.)

So, when you refer to biological male or female, are you referring to karyotype or phenotype?

 

[Kfox]

But you have no idea why.

My guess would be that when someone has something wrong at birth that causes harm to the body in a way that needs to be corrected or fixed, they label that harm syndrome.

I have NEVER ONCE said anything akin to there being THOUSANDS of biological sex categories. I have, for several posts now, been explaining that the categories fall within a BIMODAL RANGE that include incredible variance, so trying to rigidly say that any one category is defined by a small selection of biological traits is false, and that it is far more complex than that.

IOW your position is just because a person has a “Y” sex chromosome, does not mean they are male; right? Which brings us right back to where we were before; can you give an example of someone born with a “Y” sex chromosome (not the result of some type of syndrome) that is considered female?

 

[Kfox]

There are two (out of many) different biological classifications being highlighted here: Karyotype and Phenotype. Karyotype refers to the DNA and genes, whereas Phenotype refers to how the physical traits appear in the body. Sometimes the phenotype does not match the karyotype typically associated with that phenotype, as in the case of XY females, to name just one example (there are many others.)

So, when you refer to biological male or female, are you referring to karyotype or phenotype?

Karyotype.

 

[Soandso]

can you give an example of someone born with a “Y” sex chromosome (not the result of some type of syndrome) that is considered female?

Güevedoce - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Kfox]

Güevedoce - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

According to the article, it is classified as a disorder due to a deficiency in the production of 5-a reductase. So like a syndrome, this sounds like another example of something that went wrong at birth.

 

[Soandso]

According to the article, it is classified as a disorder due to a deficiency in the production of 5-a reductase. So like a syndrome, this sounds like another example of something that went wrong at birth.

It's a genetic condition that effects certain communities of people. Yes, it is a syndrome, but it isn't debilitating. After the child changes after puberty into a male, they are able to have children as a normal guy would be able to with very few signs that they were female originally. This effects over 1% of their population, which is pretty large portion of the community and doesn't just make this a one off occurrence

All this said, that is a case where people are born female with a y chromosome. It's interesting to note how the changes happen in the transition between female to male. It goes to show that we aren't as different as people seem to think, even though we are a dimorphic species. It also shows that there are different shades of grey between the black and white of male and female

 

[VoidCat]

. It's interesting to note how the changes happen in the transition between female to male. It goes to show that we aren't as different as people seem to think, even though we are a dimorphic species.

Fun fact: Testosterone is not much chemically different in structure then estrogen. Here's a picture...The estradiol is estrogen in it :

Just something i found interesting that i learned in biology class that this statement reminded me of

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It works for this conversation.