Resurrection and Duplication

[LightofTruth]

I guess what I am saying is that you are creating a theologically debatable position.

Let me give you an example:

Adam and Eve were created. Does that mean they didn't have a belly button because there was no umbilical cord attached?

Scientifically you would say "no" but at the same time you could also hold the position that when God created them, He decided to add the belly button so that the children would look the same.

There are no scriptures to support either position so we end up with a theological debate - but one that we couldn't support with actual written verification.

So... does God but us in His memory bank and reinsert it into a new body? Maybe. Does God simply take the spirit/soul of man that is already created and reinsert it into a new body? Maybe.

How does He do it? No scripture to tell us... only that it is done.

I would personally think probably reinserts a spirit/soul into a body if but because of the fact it fits the mold of other scriptures. But, again, it is only my supposition. Angels are spirits and yet they are still tangible. Jesus spoke to Moses and Elijah... not to a memory bank but then again someone could say it was a vision and not real.

So we end up with suppositions that only time will tell us which way is right. IMO

The problem I have with the soul/spirit being united with a body is that the soul/spirit is referred to as the real person. If that be true, then the real person never dies and therefore is immortal. And therefore the definition of 'dead' has to mean something like "separation from God". So, when we say the soul/spirit is immortal it means that the soul/spirit never dies and therefore the soul/spirit is never separated from God. And if everyone has an immortal soul/spirit, then no one is ever separated from God. Therefore, no person ever dies. And that means no person needs to be saved because they all have immortal never dying souls/spirits.

 

[Mock Turtle]

That could be so, but even if it weren't nobody is ever what they were two minutes ago. The old you is gone, and the new you is older, changed from what was to what is becoming something else.

Perhaps God allows for a certain amount (even if infinitesimal) of wastage.

 

[Kenny]

The problem I have with the soul/spirit being united with a body is that the soul/spirit is referred to as the real person. If that be true, then the real person never dies and therefore is immortal. And therefore the definition of 'dead' has to mean something like "separation from God". So, when we say the soul/spirit is immortal it means that the soul/spirit never dies and therefore the soul/spirit is never separated from God. And if everyone has an immortal soul/spirit, then no one is ever separated from God. Therefore, no person ever dies. And that means no person needs to be saved because they all have immortal never dying souls/spirits.

Interesting thought.

Question to meditate on... is Satan a spirit? Or are fallen angels spirit beings?

 

[Samael_Khan]

I guess what I am saying is that you are creating a theologically debatable position.

Let me give you an example:

Adam and Eve were created. Does that mean they didn't have a belly button because there was no umbilical cord attached?

Scientifically you would say "no" but at the same time you could also hold the position that when God created them, He decided to add the belly button so that the children would look the same.

There are no scriptures to support either position so we end up with a theological debate - but one that we couldn't support with actual written verification.

So... does God but us in His memory bank and reinsert it into a new body? Maybe. Does God simply take the spirit/soul of man that is already created and reinsert it into a new body? Maybe.

How does He do it? No scripture to tell us... only that it is done.

I would personally think probably reinserts a spirit/soul into a body if but because of the fact it fits the mold of other scriptures. But, again, it is only my supposition. Angels are spirits and yet they are still tangible. Jesus spoke to Moses and Elijah... not to a memory bank but then again someone could say it was a vision and not real.

So we end up with suppositions that only time will tell us which way is right. IMO

I agree that one shouldn't be arguing theological positions which have no bearing on the book the religion is based on. So the Bible doesn't say that god will store people in his memory, but saying such might cause an ethical dilemma if one follows through with the idea logically.

In summary it is this:

If God promises to reward an individual, but that individual is destroyed, then God would be rewarding a copy of the individual and not the individual themselves. That means that God is potentially a liar.

 

[Brickjectivity]

So you seem to be saying that it is not the body that counts in a person, and which makes the person. I would agree.
I guess for this reason I would say that matter transfer (as in SciFi) or body transfer as in Star Trek would result in the death of the person.

Or I'm saying that people are transient already, never just one thing in a certain sense, but we take up space, have mass, have a part to play. If we disappear then its not like there's instantly someone to take our place...unless one appears at the other end of the transporter beam (a fictitious technology of course).

 

[Brickjectivity]

Perhaps God allows for a certain amount (even if infinitesimal) of wastage.

Or maybe its the journey not the destination. Maybe its not waste but paint.

 

[metis]

Interesting thought.

Question to meditate on... is Satan a spirit? Or are fallen angels spirit beings?

... or symbolic of our own tendency towards sin? Well, at least yours!

 

[LightofTruth]

Interesting thought.

Question to meditate on... is Satan a spirit? Or are fallen angels spirit beings?

The RCC has always claimed that everyone has an immortal soul. That soul is said to leave the body when the body dies. They say that this immortal soul is conscious and is either in the presence of God or in some other place, purgatory perhaps. The soul being immortal is said to be incorrutible

"According to the Roman Catechism, the damned are eternally deprived of the beatific vision. They will not receive any consolations in hell, escape from the pain of hellfire, or have any company except for the demons that tempted them."

Those souls must be considered dead because the Scripture tells us that souls die. How can a soul be dead if it is immortal?

The definition of immortal:

ἄφθαρτος aphthartos 8x
incorruptible, immortal, imperishable, undying, enduring, Rom_1:23; 1Co_9:25; 1Co_15:52
ἀφθορία aphthoria 1x
pr. incapability of decay;
met. incorruptness, integrity, genuineness, purity, Tit_2:7

So, all souls are incorruptible, immortal, imperishable, undying, enduring, Rom_1:23; 1Co_9:25; 1Co_15:52

Why then does the Scripture tell us souls die(Eze 18:4)?

Here is a quote from the highly regarded commentary by Matthew Henry on Eze 18:4. This commentary was recommended to me by the orthodox Presbyterian church.

"The sinner that persists in sin shall certainly die, his iniquity shall be his ruin: The soul that sins shall die, shall die as a soul can die, shall be excluded from the favour of God, which is the life and bliss of the soul, and shall lie for ever under his wrath, which is its death and misery."

According to Matthew Henry and many Christian denominations, death and misery, being excluded from the favor of God, is what happens and what it means by "the soul that sins shall die".

Matthew Henry continues:

"That if ministers be not faithful to their trust, if they do not warn sinners of the fatal consequences of sin, but suffer them to go on unreproved, the blood of those that perish through their carelessness will be required at their hand. It shall be charged upon them in the day of account that it was owing to their unfaithfulness that such and such precious souls perished in sin; for who knows but if they had had fair warning given them they might have fled in time from the wrath to come? And, if it contract so heinous a guilt as it does to be accessory to the murder of a dying body, what is it to be accessory to the ruin of an immortal soul?"

What does Matthew Henry mean when he calls the soul immortal?

On the one hand he says that a dead soul is one who is excluded from the favor of God and is under God's wrath, which is death and misery. Then, on the other hand he says, "that such and such precious souls perished in sin"

So what does Matthew Henry mean by "immortal soul"? He can't mean what the word immortal means because, if he does, he contradicts it's meaning by saying it dies (meaning in "misery') and that it perished.

The word means: undying and imperishable.

 

[McBell]

Depends on what you believe. But in this thread I am focusing mainly on personality.

I am asking because of your statement:

The personality of a person doesn't survive death (the soul isn't immortal)

It appears you are saying that the the soul is your personality.
I was merely looking for clarification.
Of your beliefs, not everyone else's.

 

[sayak83]

I'd say that would be a duplication

Because although identical the two bodies in question (the one who died and the one who is the copy) would be made of different matter - they would be alike but not the same

The entire matter in our body gets replaced within a year or something if I remember correctly.
Secondly all subatomic particles of the same type are identical clones( being fluctuations in the quantum matter field). Secondly they do not have continuous existence but wink in and out within the atom ( for example the quarks within a proton continuously change identity while preserving the net color property).
So it's damned near difficult to distinguish between "the same thing" vs "copy of the same thing". The concept itself is not really coherent.

 

[Samael_Khan]

I am asking because of your statement:

​

It appears you are saying that the the soul is your personality.
I was merely looking for clarification.
Of your beliefs, not everyone else's.

It isn't my beliefs. The OP isn't representative of my beliefs but rather a hypothetical question questioning the implication of certain beliefs in a certain Christian group.

 

[McBell]

It isn't my beliefs. The OP isn't representative of my beliefs but rather a hypothetical question questioning the implication of certain beliefs in a certain Christian group.

My apologies.
I was unaware of your fear of sharing what you believe a soul is.

 

[Kenny]

... or symbolic of our own tendency towards sin? Well, at least yours!

LOL

But on a serious note.... having seen a "possessed" person, it has the capacity to change one's mentality of possibilities.

 

[Kenny]

I agree that one shouldn't be arguing theological positions which have no bearing on the book the religion is based on. So the Bible doesn't say that god will store people in his memory, but saying such might cause an ethical dilemma if one follows through with the idea logically.

In summary it is this:

If God promises to reward an individual, but that individual is destroyed, then God would be rewarding a copy of the individual and not the individual themselves. That means that God is potentially a liar.

Correct... IF that were the case, they would be rewarding a copy make God unjust and even a liar

My position is that the spirit/soul is not destroyed but simply, by however only He can do it, simply gives the person a new body with his/her rewards.

I find interesting the following scripture of 1 Corinthians 15:53:

TLB For our earthly bodies, the ones we have now that can die, must be transformed into heavenly bodies that cannot perish but will live forever.

TPT For we will discard our mortal “clothes” and slip into a body that is imperishable. What is mortal now will be exchanged for immortality.

It doesn't say we die but just our body dies... and we "slip into" a new body.... however God does that.

 

[Kenny]

The RCC has always claimed that everyone has an immortal soul. That soul is said to leave the body when the body dies. They say that this immortal soul is conscious and is either in the presence of God or in some other place, purgatory perhaps. The soul being immortal is said to be incorrutible

"According to the Roman Catechism, the damned are eternally deprived of the beatific vision. They will not receive any consolations in hell, escape from the pain of hellfire, or have any company except for the demons that tempted them."

Those souls must be considered dead because the Scripture tells us that souls die. How can a soul be dead if it is immortal?

The definition of immortal:

ἄφθαρτος aphthartos 8x
incorruptible, immortal, imperishable, undying, enduring, Rom_1:23; 1Co_9:25; 1Co_15:52
ἀφθορία aphthoria 1x
pr. incapability of decay;
met. incorruptness, integrity, genuineness, purity, Tit_2:7

So, all souls are incorruptible, immortal, imperishable, undying, enduring, Rom_1:23; 1Co_9:25; 1Co_15:52

Why then does the Scripture tell us souls die(Eze 18:4)?

Here is a quote from the highly regarded commentary by Matthew Henry on Eze 18:4. This commentary was recommended to me by the orthodox Presbyterian church.

"The sinner that persists in sin shall certainly die, his iniquity shall be his ruin: The soul that sins shall die, shall die as a soul can die, shall be excluded from the favour of God, which is the life and bliss of the soul, and shall lie for ever under his wrath, which is its death and misery."

According to Matthew Henry and many Christian denominations, death and misery, being excluded from the favor of God, is what happens and what it means by "the soul that sins shall die".

Matthew Henry continues:

"That if ministers be not faithful to their trust, if they do not warn sinners of the fatal consequences of sin, but suffer them to go on unreproved, the blood of those that perish through their carelessness will be required at their hand. It shall be charged upon them in the day of account that it was owing to their unfaithfulness that such and such precious souls perished in sin; for who knows but if they had had fair warning given them they might have fled in time from the wrath to come? And, if it contract so heinous a guilt as it does to be accessory to the murder of a dying body, what is it to be accessory to the ruin of an immortal soul?"

What does Matthew Henry mean when he calls the soul immortal?

On the one hand he says that a dead soul is one who is excluded from the favor of God and is under God's wrath, which is death and misery. Then, on the other hand he says, "that such and such precious souls perished in sin"

So what does Matthew Henry mean by "immortal soul"? He can't mean what the word immortal means because, if he does, he contradicts it's meaning by saying it dies (meaning in "misery') and that it perished.

The word means: undying and imperishable.

It would appear to me that the problem lies in the definition of "death"

Notice your quote:

"On the one hand he says that a dead soul is one who is excluded from the favor of God and is under God's wrath, which is death and misery"

Obviously, if the spirit/soul ceased, there wouldn't be any misery. In as much as he said there is "misery", I can only assume that the spirit/soul is still alive but just separated from God

 

[blü 2]

Scenario:

- The personality of a person doesn't survive death (the soul isn't immortal)
- God retains the information of that persons personality in his memory.
- God imprints that information of the person's personality, which is stored in his memory, on the person's regenerated body or a new body at a later stage after they have died.

Would that be considered a resurrection or a duplication?
Might that dichotomy be false?

I'm charmed by your suggestion ─ each of us available on demand as a download from God's mind, as many times as needed.

(Come to think of it, there was a Dr Who sequence during David Tennant's tenure where John Simm's Master turned all humans into copies of himself.)

 

[rational experiences]

Common sense. Remove machine.

Where is your thesis then when you are just an equal human self?

Life continuance. Human sex.

First life two human parents.

No God or Satan thesis. For machines.

Non stop lying science satanic history.

Human caused.
Human theories

Human fake designer. Design owns no consciousness as reactor.

Conscious self human controls reaction.

No machines. No satanic practice either.

 

[Samael_Khan]

My apologies.
I was unaware of your fear of sharing what you believe a soul is.

Well there is no fear if I have no idea if a soul exists, therefore I would not know what it actually is.

It could be an immortal spirit with a personality
It could be a mortal spirit with a personality
Its moral alignment could be absolute good with sinful flesh contaminating it

Lots of different beliefs. I am entertained by the possibilities but I have no conviction of what it is myself.

 

[Samael_Khan]

I'm charmed by your suggestion ─ each of us available on demand as a download from God's mind, as many times as needed.

(Come to think of it, there was a Dr Who sequence during David Tennant's tenure where John Simm's Master turned all humans into copies of himself.)

You must also check out Altered Carbon if you haven't already. Bodies are just considered sleeves and everybody's consciousness is uploaded to a server if they have the money for it to be redownloaded if something happens to their current sleeve.

 

[blü 2]

You must also check out Altered Carbon if you haven't already. Bodies are just considered sleeves and everybody's consciousness is uploaded to a server if they have the money for it to be redownloaded if something happens to their current sleeve.

Thanks for that. Checking out Altered Carbon a-net, my first reaction is to edit out my objection that the mind is the brain, and get into the plot; and my second reaction is that the plot summary reads like a Philip K Dick mixture ─ the airship house of ill fame is straight out of his The Crack in Space (1966) (a title that had his editor sputtering). I can't recall where I've come across interstellar travel by mind-transfer before, but its ancestor was likely Burroughs' John Carter.

A fine water-hole for a swim!