Resurrection of Christ: Literal fact or spiritual reality?

[Dawnofhope]

In what way? Give me a scripture from the principle Baha'i texts which offers a universal spiritual experience to everyone who comes to believe, the moment they first believed.

It sounds like you are selling drugs! Here...try a bit of Jesus. Guaranteed spiritual experience every time?

What is the purpose of religion? It is to assist each one of us, and humanity to live better.

Ok, please explain it. I do not think English is pcarl's primary language because I can't really follow what they are saying.

Why not ask him to clarify what he means rather than criticise his English and then announce that you are not talking to him anymore?

Consider Tertullian's words about the Christians of old:

"Look," they say, "how they love one another and how they are ready to die for each other"

Where's the love?

Conservative what?

Christian.

You actually know someone tried for heresy?

Lloyd Geering - Wikipedia

Come on Adrian, Sunday school children know that answer.

But Sunday school children don't ask the hard questions.

38Later on, Joseph of Arimathea, who was a disciple of Jesus (but secretly for fear of the Jews), asked Pilate’s permission to take away the body of Jesus. Pilate granted it, so he came and removed His body. 39Nicodemus, who had previously come to Jesus at night, also brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about seventy-five pounds.…

and

Matthew 27:60 and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away.

A plausible embellishment of an implausible narrative. Should we believe that serpents talk, the earth was created in six days six thousand years ago, and the whole world really was flooded after Noah managed to squeeze all known animals onto the ark?

It appears you could use a little lite reading as well: The Wounds of Jesus

The article speaks of the allegory of the crucifixion story. Its a plausible story and I have no reason to doubt it. The resurrection story can only be a myth, albeit with profound meaning.

 

[Dawnofhope]

"For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve."
Paul 1Cor

You have answered a riddle with a riddle.

 

[pearl]

And apparently you didn't notice he used the words myth and mythology throughout.

Of course he did, the entire essay concerned the proper understanding of myth, especially religious myth.

Without proof they all fall under the dictionary definition.

Do you not realize how narrowed minded the whole world would be if knowledge was confined to a dictionary?

 

[Dawnofhope]

I believe it is literally true. To fulfill the scriptures in the Old Testament - to prove that the Lord Jesus Christ is the chosen one of God

Acts 2:23-28 New International Version (NIV)

This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him. David said about him: (Psalm 16:10)

“‘I saw the Lord always before me.
Because he is at my right hand,
I will not be shaken.
Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;
my body also will rest in hope,
because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead,
you will not let your holy one see decay.
You have made known to me the paths of life;
you will fill me with joy in your presence.’

I wonder if you are reading too much into this verse from psalm when you consider it a prophecy about Christ's resurrection. Here it is KJV

Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.
Psalms 16:10

Being raised up doesn't usually refer to a resurrection and I see no reason to interpret it literally here.

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
Acts 2:23-28

 

[MJFlores]

I wonder if you are reading too much into this verse from psalm when you consider it a prophecy about Christ's resurrection. Here it is KJV

Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.
Psalms 16:10

Being raised up doesn't usually refer to a resurrection and I see no reason to interpret it literally here.

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
Acts 2:23-28

Not everyone know these following verses after my Lord Jesus resurrection, the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life:

Matthew 27:50-53 New International Version (NIV)

And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Hebrews 11:35-40 New International Version (NIV)

Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection. Some faced jeers and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. They were put to death by stoning; they were sawed in two; they were killed by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, living in caves and in holes in the ground.

These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

1 Corinthians 15:14-20 New International Version (NIV)

And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

 

[pearl]

You have answered a riddle with a riddle.

Not at all. Paul gives the earliest 'Creed', mostly just the bare bones confession

 

[pearl]

pcarl, I can't figure out what it is your trying to say and your formatting your posts in strange ways making them hard to comprehend. I am afraid I will have to leave you to it.

My posts were in response to your insistence that Jesus' risen body was physical and not spiritual as ST Paul suggests. I think Paul's position is confirmed by the incidents where Jesus is simply not recognized by his closest friends. The accounts do not refer to Jesus being sighted, but they refer to 'appearances'. There is a reason.

 

[pearl]

It seems one the greatest stumbling blocks to comprehending the D/R is our lack of respect for, acknowledgement of, the place of Mystery. We find ourselves at various stages in our faith journey, its not a question of right or wrong. But we ought not to fear the advances of the accredited scholarship of those of faith. Even those who may make us uneasy by demythologizing our favorite stories and leaving us with the bare bone Truth. It is through the oral tradition that this truth of Jesus, handed down through 'stories' was preserved for us today.

First, Bultmann highlights the correlation between the crucified Jesus and the risen Christ. He makes it clear that the resurrection is not some kind of "extra thing" added to Jesus’ death, nor a mere reversal of the effects of death. Rather, it is precisely the Crucified One who is also the Risen One—Christ is risen not in spite of his death, but he is risen precisely as the Crucified One who died. Thus the Risen One continues always to be the Crucified One; and the cross and resurrection are not two events but one. This fundamental insight has had a profound influence on post-Bultmannian theology, and it has continued to be a central theme in the work of theologians like Jürgen Moltmann and Eberhard Jüngel.

Second, Bultmann sharply highlights the eschatological character of the resurrection. Jesus’ resurrection is not merely one historical event alongside others, but it is the eschatological event—it is the event of the end of the world and the end of history. This formulation has decisively influenced later theology; most notably, it has remained the central focus of Wolfhart Pannenberg’s thought.

http://www.faith-theology.com/2006/01/bultmann-on-resurrection_21.html

 

[1robin]

My posts were in response to your insistence that Jesus' risen body was physical and not spiritual as ST Paul suggests. I think Paul's position is confirmed by the incidents where Jesus is simply not recognized by his closest friends. The accounts do not refer to Jesus being sighted, but they refer to 'appearances'. There is a reason.

Thanks, I finally know what your trying to show. If Paul's experience on the road to Damascus was the only story in the NT it would be a wide open for debate whether Christ had an actual physical body after resurrection or not. However even Paul taught that Christ had a physical resurrection, despite his not experiencing Christ physically.

Please see this link, there are few biblical doctrines as often recorded or as emphatic in nature as what kind of body Christ had after resurrection.
5. The Resurrection Body
Or just from Paul alone:
Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 15:35-58 - New Living Translation

The reason I am giving you a link instead of simply posting the scriptures is simply because there are an embarrassment of riches concerning this issue.

BTW isn't bodily resurrection a core Catholic doctrine?

 

[Ingledsva]

Of course he did, the entire essay concerned the proper understanding of myth, especially religious myth.
Do you not realize how narrowed minded the whole world would be if knowledge was confined to a dictionary?

He used the words throughout, because they are the correct words to use throughout on that subject.

It matters not - if he thinks the definition should be expanded, or altered.

It is the definition both we and he use.

Let me point out the obvious. - You likely consider most other religions to be FULL myth - in the made up sense. Pagan, etc? Right?

So why should we consider yours, - which also has no proof, - to be outside the normal definition for religions?

Myth = a traditional or legendary story, usually concerning some being or hero or event, with or without a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation, especially one that is concerned with deities or demigods and explains some practice, rite, or phenomenon of nature.

Mythos = the underlying system of beliefs, especially those dealing with supernatural forces, characteristic of a particular cultural group.

*

 

[Dawnofhope]

It seems one the greatest stumbling blocks to comprehending the D/R is our lack of respect for, acknowledgement of, the place of Mystery. We find ourselves at various stages in our faith journey, its not a question of right or wrong. But we ought not to fear the advances of the accredited scholarship of those of faith. Even those who may make us uneasy by demythologizing our favorite stories and leaving us with the bare bone Truth. It is through the oral tradition that this truth of Jesus, handed down through 'stories' was preserved for us today.

First, Bultmann highlights the correlation between the crucified Jesus and the risen Christ. He makes it clear that the resurrection is not some kind of "extra thing" added to Jesus’ death, nor a mere reversal of the effects of death. Rather, it is precisely the Crucified One who is also the Risen One—Christ is risen not in spite of his death, but he is risen precisely as the Crucified One who died. Thus the Risen One continues always to be the Crucified One; and the cross and resurrection are not two events but one. This fundamental insight has had a profound influence on post-Bultmannian theology, and it has continued to be a central theme in the work of theologians like Jürgen Moltmann and Eberhard Jüngel.

Second, Bultmann sharply highlights the eschatological character of the resurrection. Jesus’ resurrection is not merely one historical event alongside others, but it is the eschatological event—it is the event of the end of the world and the end of history. This formulation has decisively influenced later theology; most notably, it has remained the central focus of Wolfhart Pannenberg’s thought.

http://www.faith-theology.com/2006/01/bultmann-on-resurrection_21.html

I think this really adds a great deal to the discussion. It helps us focus on the significance of the resurrection and why it is important.

As to the meaning of these passages about the raising of the dead, Bahá’u’lláh writes in the Book of Íqán (certitude):

… By the terms “life” and “death,” spoken of in the scriptures, is intended the life of faith and the death of unbelief. The generality of the people, owing to their failure to grasp the meaning of these words, rejected and despised the person of the Manifestation, deprived themselves of the light of His divine guidance, and refused to follow the example of that immortal Beauty. …

… Even as Jesus said: “Ye must be born again” [John iii, 7]. Again He saith: “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit” [John iii, 5–6]. The purpose of these words is that whosoever in every dispensation is born of the Spirit and is quickened by the breath of the Manifestation of Holiness, he verily is of those that have attained unto “life” and “resurrection” and have entered into the “paradise” of the love of God. And whosoever is not of them, is condemned to “death” and “deprivation,” to the “fire” of unbelief, and to the “wrath” of God. …

In every age and century, the purpose of the Prophets of God and their chosen ones hath been no other but to affirm the spiritual significance of the terms “life,” “resurrection,” and “judgment.” … Wert thou to attain to but a dewdrop of the crystal waters of divine knowledge, thou wouldst readily realize that true life is not the life of the flesh but the life of the spirit. For the life of the flesh is common to both men and animals, whereas the life of 222 the spirit is possessed only by the pure in heart who have quaffed from the ocean of faith and partaken of the fruit of certitude. This life knoweth no death, and this existence is crowned by immortality. Even as it hath been said: “He who is a true believer liveth both in this world and in the world to come.” If by “life” be meant this earthly life, it is evident that death must needs overtake it.—Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 114, 118, 120–21.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, Pages 220-222

 

[Dawnofhope]

Not everyone know these following verses after my Lord Jesus resurrection, the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life:

Part of this thread is considering religion as opposed to science. As we can follow the development of Christian thought and how it intersects with science. Part of this belief could be considered cosmology.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_cosmology#Form_and_structure

The resurrection of Christ culminating in His ascension into heaven above the clouds, contradicts what we know about the nature of the world scientifically. We know that beyond the clouds, there is atmosphere then space, no heaven. Christianity had the same problem with Galileo's theories, and creationism has largely be discarded.

So if Christians want to argue for the supremacy of their religion based on a literal physical resurrection I feel they are on extremely thin ice.

Matthew 27:50-53 New International Version (NIV)

And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

If all of this had happened, don't you think we would have had more of record of these events historically?

1 Corinthians 15:14-20 New International Version (NIV)

And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

Of course, Paul never saw the resurrected Christ. He was blinded on the road to Damascus. Yet he likens his experience alongside the other resurrection experiences early in 1 Corinthians 15:7-8

 

[MJFlores]

Part of this thread is considering religion as opposed to science. As we can follow the development of Christian thought and how it intersects with science. Part of this belief could be considered cosmology.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_cosmology#Form_and_structure

The resurrection of Christ culminating in His ascension into heaven above the clouds, contradicts what we know about the nature of the world scientifically. We know that beyond the clouds, there is atmosphere then space, no heaven. Christianity had the same problem with Galileo's theories, and creationism has largely be discarded.

So if Christians want to argue for the supremacy of their religion based on a literal physical resurrection I feel they are on extremely thin ice.

If all of this had happened, don't you think we would have had more of record of these events historically?

Of course, Paul never saw the resurrected Christ. He was blinded on the road to Damascus. Yet he likens his experience alongside the other resurrection experiences early in 1 Corinthians 15:7-8

Ahhh, science. I love science. In fact I watch Space Documentaries of NOVA PBS before going to bed, it helps me sleep.

The whole universe was created by the Almighty

By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. Hebrews 11:3

Why did God created the universe and for whom was it created?

but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. Hebrews 1:2

If the universe was created for his Son, my Lord Jesus Christ then he should be resurrected from the dead to be the heir of all things.

Ephesians 4:7-11 Good News Translation (GNT)

Each one of us has received a special gift in proportion to what Christ has given. As the scripture says,

“When he went up to the very heights,
he took many captives with him;
he gave gifts to people.”

Now, what does “he went up” mean? It means that first he came down to the lowest depths of the earth. So the one who came down is the same one who went up, above and beyond the heavens, to fill the whole universe with his presence. It was he who “gave gifts to people”; he appointed some to be apostles, others to be prophets, others to be evangelists, others to be pastors and teachers.

Even if NASA develops a superior telescope than Kepler telescope, it will still fail to see what is above and beyond the heavens where Christ is. How ever he will return soon.

He then added, “Very truly I tell you, you will see ‘heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending on’ the Son of Man.” John 1:51

 

[Dawnofhope]

Ahhh, science. I love science. In fact I watch Space Documentaries of NOVA PBS before going to bed, it helps me sleep.

The whole universe was created by the Almighty

By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. Hebrews 11:3

Why did God created the universe and for whom was it created?

but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. Hebrews 1:2

If the universe was created for his Son, my Lord Jesus Christ then he should be resurrected from the dead to be the heir of all things.

Ephesians 4:7-11 Good News Translation (GNT)

Each one of us has received a special gift in proportion to what Christ has given. As the scripture says,

“When he went up to the very heights,
he took many captives with him;
he gave gifts to people.”

Now, what does “he went up” mean? It means that first he came down to the lowest depths of the earth. So the one who came down is the same one who went up, above and beyond the heavens, to fill the whole universe with his presence. It was he who “gave gifts to people”; he appointed some to be apostles, others to be prophets, others to be evangelists, others to be pastors and teachers.

View attachment 16994



Even if NASA develops a superior telescope than Kepler telescope, it will still fail to see what is above and beyond the heavens where Christ is. How ever he will return soon.

He then added, “Very truly I tell you, you will see ‘heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending on’ the Son of Man.” John 1:51

So its like an opening to the next world that became appaerent at the time of the ascension? The early Christian thinkers obviously got that one wrong too. It is an explanation that satisfies you. Do you believe that the earth was created in six days, six thousand years ago?

 

[pearl]

Let me point out the obvious. - You likely consider most other religions to be FULL myth - in the made up sense. Pagan, etc? Right?

Wrong

So why should we consider yours, - which also has no proof, - to be outside the normal definition for religions?

It's not
What is obvious is that you have no, or refuse to consider, the concept of religious myth. Beliefs were handed down orally, to be remembered through the generations and the vehicle to convey that truth of belief was through story, myth.
You have much in common with conservatives and fundamentalists in dismissing the value of myth.

 

[pearl]

The resurrection of Christ culminating in His ascension into heaven above the clouds, contradicts what we know about the nature of the world scientifically. We know that beyond the clouds, there is atmosphere then space, no heaven. Christianity had the same problem with Galileo's theories, and creationism has largely be discarded.

The Church has not abandon its belief that God is the creator, but neither is it opposed to modern science as it acknowledges the possibility of extra terrestrial life.


http://www.space.com/25060-vatican-observatory-alien-life-conference.html

 

[Dawnofhope]

The Church has not abandon its belief that God is the creator

As I hope it wouldn't...

but neither is it opposed to modern science as it acknowledges the possibility of extra terrestrial life.

That is good, but not exactly the point I was making. I was eluding to a much broader principle that is applicable to the relationship between science and religion.

“Religion without science is superstition. Science without religion is materialism.” Baha'u'llah

Religion and science are the two wings upon which man’s intelligence can soar into the heights, with which the human soul can progress. It is not possible to fly with one wing alone! Should a man try to fly with the wing of religion alone he would quickly fall into the quagmire of superstition, whilst on the other hand, with the wing of science alone he would also make no progress, but fall into the despairing slough of materialism. Abdu’l-Baha

 

[pearl]

I was eluding to a much broader principle that is applicable to the relationship between science and religion.

I don't believe there is any contradiction between science and religion. Its a mistake to think Scripture speaks to science.
As Stephen Hawking put in 'A Brief History of Time';

However, if we discover a complete theory, it should in time be understandable by everyone, not just by a few scientists. Then we shall all, philosophers, scientists and just ordinary people, be able to take part in the discussion of the question of why it is that we and the universe exist. If we find the answer to that, it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason -- for then we should know the mind of God.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I don't believe there is any contradiction between science and religion. Its a mistake to think Scripture speaks to science.
As Stephen Hawking put in 'A Brief History of Time';

However, if we discover a complete theory, it should in time be understandable by everyone, not just by a few scientists. Then we shall all, philosophers, scientists and just ordinary people, be able to take part in the discussion of the question of why it is that we and the universe exist. If we find the answer to that, it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason -- for then we should know the mind of God.

Then we are talking about the same principle, namely the harmony between science and religion. We agree about the importance of mythology in religion. The lines get crossed or at least very blurred, when 'Christians' insist on the necessity of literal belief in all biblical miracles as a prerequisite for 'salvation'. Its not reasonable to insist on belief in the unreasonable.

 

[pearl]

The lines get crossed or at least very blurred, when 'Christians' insist on the necessity of literal belief in all biblical miracles as a prerequisite for 'salvation'. Its not reasonable to insist on belief in the unreasonable.

I think that the insistence on a literalist interpretation is in fear, what's left? Neither is it reasonable to insist that we Christians have the only answer to salvation, There's a reluctance to 'let God be God' and save whom ever she/he wills.