Resurrection of Christ - What's the evidence for and against a literal resurrection

[siti]

We speak with one voice.

You don't even do that individually - never mind collectively! I'm sorry LH but your post is the epitome of what I meant when I said - in the very post you are responding to -

...quoting out of context "prophecies" from the Bible and stating: "there - that's talking about Baha'u'llah" and then changing the subject again when someone says "no it isn't and here's the evidence against that interpretation"

...and it amounts, again, to zero evidence.

 

[loverofhumanity]

You don't even do that individually - never mind collectively! I'm sorry LH but your post is the epitome of what I meant when I said - in the very post you are responding to -
...and it amounts, again, to zero evidence.

I’m just lucky I guess somehow I stumbled across this Faith and accepted it.

 

[Trailblazer]

How do you know that what Jesus is reported to have said in the Gospel of John is really what Jesus said? How do you know that the "Comforter"/"Spirit of Truth" is referring to Baha'u'llah and not one of the other numerous pretenders to the Messianic throne? It is no use you just quoting out of context "prophecies" from the Bible and stating: "there - that's talking about Baha'u'llah" and then changing the subject again when someone says "no it isn't and here's the evidence against that interpretation" which is what @adrian009 has been doing in this thread so far.

I understand your position. But what if Baha'u'llah actually did what it says in John that the Spirit of truth will do?

John 16:12 “I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.”

John 15:26 “But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:”

Baha’u’llah did exactly what the Bible says the Spirit of truth would do... Referring to Jesus as the Son of Man, Baha’u’llah wrote what is below... Did any of the "pretenders" write any such thing about Jesus, anything so specific that it has the exact words that are in the Bible?

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.

We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.
Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

If you want the other Bible translations that say "he will bear witness" I have those handy.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I'm so glad you found something you can take literally.

She quoted scripture CG, to which she said she could see the spiritual metephor within.

She did not write scripture CG

It must be wearing you down by now, if that is the best you have got.

How are you by the way, making headway?

All the best,

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

As I told the atheists on another thread, it is not my job to prove anything to you, but the fact that I am not taking that on as my job in no way proves it is not true, logically speaking. It is the responsibility of everyone who is interested to investigate the truth for themselves.

“The first principle Baha’u’llah urged was the independent investigation of truth. “Each individual,” He said, “is following the faith of his ancestors who themselves are lost in the maze of tradition. Reality is steeped in dogmas and doctrines. If each investigate for himself, he will find that Reality is one; does not admit of multiplicity; is not divisible. All will find the same foundation and all will be at peace.” – Abdu’l-Baha, Star of the West, Volume 3, p. 5.

“What does it mean to investigate reality? It means that man must forget all hearsay and examine truth himself, for he does not know whether statements he hears are in accordance with reality or not. Wherever he finds truth or reality, he must hold to it, forsaking, discarding all else; for outside of reality there is naught but superstition and imagination.” – Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 62.

Keep in mind that you cannot sink the Baha'i ship, if Baha'u'llah was sent by an omnipotent God. Moreover, if Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ, He was, regardless of what anyone believes, since beliefs do not determine reality, God does. So you can laugh all you want but that will not change reality. It is what it is.

All that said, I do not mind answering specific questions but I cannot present all the evidence for the Baha'i Faith on a forum, because there is just too much of it.

The pertinent Baha'i answer here is Abdu'l Baha's quote about the resurrection. How does it fit with the gospel accounts?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The pertinent Baha'i answer here is Abdu'l Baha's quote about the resurrection. How does it fit with the gospel accounts?

Be nice for this to stay on topic of the Resurrection and it would be really good to look at alternate views prior to the setting of the doctrine on this issue.

I do think that solid evidence may be found about Jesus. I would not be surprised.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

I’m just lucky I guess somehow I stumbled across this Faith and accepted it.

I always say I stumbled across it because that is exactly what happened... I was not looking for a religion or God at all back then, I literally stumbled across it and then I fell two weeks later... In the interim I kind of got mad at God, but I could never disprove that Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be so now here I am 47 years later. Glad to see I am not alone.

 

[siti]

I understand your position. But what if Baha'u'llah actually did what it says in John that the Spirit of truth will do?

John 16:12 “I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.”

John 15:26 “But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:”

And what if Peter spoke the truth about the fulfillment of the "prophecy" of this "comforter", the "Spirit of truth" when he wrote about what happened shortly after Jesus' death in the 1st century to the disciples of Jesus to whom the promise had been made...

"This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.


Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear." ​

Acts of the Apostles 2:32-33

...said fulfillment of prophecy having reportedly happened BEFORE any of the recipients had had the presence of mind to record Jesus' uttering of the prophecy in writing, I might add.

 

[CG Didymus]

Let’s say for arguments sake Jesus physically rose from the dead but afterwards He and His religion Christianity was never heard of again. That after the resurrection it all fizzled out, the disciples died away leaving nothing. No followers. No Christianity.

Would that physical resurrection have meant much at all if the Religion of Christ never took off?

Or was the real resurrection the fact that, despite being crucified, the religion of Christ spread throughout the world for 2,000 years winning the allegiance of kings and queens?

For me, the true resurrection was the resurrecting of the Cause of Christ despite Him being crucified and His followers being persecuted. That is the real resurrection in my book.

But that Christianity taught things that Baha'is don't believe are true, including the physical resurrection.

 

[CG Didymus]

How do you know that what Jesus is reported to have said in the Gospel of John is really what Jesus said? How do you know that the "Comforter"/"Spirit of Truth" is referring to Baha'u'llah and not one of the other numerous pretenders to the Messianic throne? It is no use you just quoting out of context "prophecies" from the Bible and stating: "there - that's talking about Baha'u'llah" and then changing the subject again when someone says "no it isn't and here's the evidence against that interpretation" which is what @adrian009 has been doing in this thread so far.

Not to mention Christians believe it to be the third person of their trinity, the Holy Spirit.

 

[siti]

I’m just lucky I guess somehow I stumbled across this Faith and accepted it.

I guess so!

 

[Rough Beast Sloucher]

I understand your position. But what if Baha'u'llah actually did what it says in John that the Spirit of truth will do?

John 16:12 “I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.”

John 15:26 “But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:”

Baha’u’llah did exactly what the Bible says the Spirit of truth would do... Referring to Jesus as the Son of Man, Baha’u’llah wrote what is below... Did any of the "pretenders" write any such thing about Jesus, anything so specific that it has the exact words that are in the Bible?

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.

We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.
Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

If you want the other Bible translations that say "he will bear witness" I have those handy.

Jesus says that the Comforter will be given to the Apostles that he is addressing. And that is exactly what happens in Acts 2 when the Holy Spirit descends on them at Pentecost. The Greek word hymin and its variants means 'you' in an immediate personal sense. It cannot be twisted into a generic universal reference to future persons not present. In John 15:27, it is the Apostles who will bear witness when the Comforter comes, which is exactly what they proceed to do. Again see Acts 2.

 

[siti]

Not to mention Christians believe it to be the third person of their trinity, the Holy Spirit.

Well yes! I mean the Baha'i interpretation makes perfect sense if you ignore the fact that the Christian scriptures so clearly relate these "prophecies" about the Comforter etc. to events that had already happened before they sat down to record the sayings of Jesus in writing. In the case of John's gospel, in particular, there is, by traditional belief, a gap of more than 60 years between the appearance of the "Comforter" at Pentecost 33 AD as recorded in Acts of the Apostles 2 and the recording of Jesus' prophecy about sending the "Comforter"
in John's Gospel that was written (according to the conservative Christian tradition that is being hailed as an arbiter of truth in this thread) very close to the end of the 1st century AD. Prophecy is normally meant to be written in advance - not after the event - but that this "Comforter" is what John intended his Jesus to be referring to is absolutely obvious to me and although it fails as prophecy per se could certainly be accepted as a promise of Christ on a Christian interpretation - but I absolutely fail to see how, on any fair and unbiased reading, it could possibly be true that John intended to portray Jesus talking about something that would not happen for another 19 centuries. Never in a month of Sundays!

 

[Trailblazer]

The pertinent Baha'i answer here is Abdu'l Baha's quote about the resurrection. How does it fit with the gospel accounts?

With all due respect, I was never a Christian before I was a Baha'i so I am not that familiar with the gospel accounts. We know that the gospel accounts are just stories written about Jesus long after Jesus walked the earth, so there is no way to verify that they ever transpired as recorded. I know the specific verses in Luke that refer to Jesus appearing and eating with the disciples and if they are true my best guess is that the Spirit of Jesus appeared to the disciples as a body to restore their faith in Him, although nobody can really prove that. But nobody can prove that the physical body of Jesus rose from the dead either so it is just a belief. Not all Christians believe it as can be seen on this website:

The resurrection of Jesus Christ Is it a fact or a religious myth?

For the sake of argument, even if the body of Jesus rose from the dead there are no verses in the Bible that state that Jesus ascended to heaven in the same body. Christians normally cite these verses:
.
Acts 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

However, there is another explanation for what the angels saw in Acts 1:10-11. It was the Christ Spirit that ascended, not a body, and that is what the angels saw. That makes perfect sense since angels can see spirits. Descending from heaven upon the clouds means that the spirit of Jesus, the Christ Spirit, will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God and will appear in the form of the human temple. Though delivered from the womb of Mary, Jesus in reality descended from the heaven of the will of God, so Baha’u’llah descended in like manner, from the heaven of the will of God.

 

[CG Didymus]

I myself accept scientific fact that after death the body decomposes so these references have other intended meanings not any miraculous or superstitious ones.

When we speak about resurrection of a Proohet we understand the Cause was resurrected after their death not their physical bodies.

When we speak about the resurrection of someone like Lazarus we understand that to mean he was resurrected from the ‘death of unbelief’.

Remember Christ saying ‘ let the dead bury the dead’? Christ referred to someone who did not accept Him as dead as in ‘spiritually dead’.

Here’s some references exposing how we understand and reconcile these seeming contradictions.

THE RESURRECTION OF UNBELIEVERS


Shoghi Effendi wrote:

Concerning the meaning of `Resurrection': although the term is used by Bahá'u'lláh in His Writings,... its meaning is figurative. The tomb is also allegorical, i.e., the tomb of unbelief. - Dawn of a New Day: Messages to India, p.79

The Bab explained, briefly, the symbolic meaning of the resurrections of unbelievers to faith and steadfastness:

True resurrection from the sepulcres means to be quickened in conformity with His Will, through the power of His utterance. - Selections From the Writings of the Bab, p.158


And again, Shoghi Effendi wrote the following, through his secretary, to the Spiritual Assembly of the Bahá'ís of Racine, Wisconsin:

...the spiritual resurrection of man... is...his acceptance of Divine Manifestations. - Lights of Guidance, 1988 revised edition, no.1592, p.481

So Lazarus was

Personally, I cannot see the Gospel empty tomb narratives as intended to be understood as anything other than a literal bodily resurrection.

Yes, can Baha'is agree with this basic view. Did the writers intend to say Jesus rose physically from the dead? I don't think they can otherwise they'd have to admit the writers were wrong, that is, wrong according to the Baha'is who believe the body of Jesus died and rotted away.

 

[CG Didymus]

But if the Baha'is are right, it has HUGE implications for all of humanity... Why does nobody even seem to care that Baha'u'llah could be the return of Christ, the Promise of All Ages? That seems awfully strange to me.

Pertinent to this thread, most Christians believe that Jesus' body rose from the grave and Jesus' resurrected body ascended to heaven and the same body of Jesus will return from heaven on a cloud. About 60% of people in the United States believe this. They are waiting for Jesus to return and fix everything that is wrong in the world, which means that humans do not have to do anything but wait for Jesus to return. Doesn't anyone see how this belief affects humanity? How can humanity progress when this many people believe Jesus is going to do everything for us when He returns?

Yes, huge implications. It would mean Christians have been spreading the false teaching that Jesus conquered death and rose physically from the dead.

 

[siti]

No you're not - you are reading it allegorically when it suits and literally when that supports your presuppositions. That is the whole basis of Baha'i reinterpretations of the Bible - you claim at one and the same time that the Biblical record that we now have is compromised by time and inaccurate transmission - so that any verses that seem to cast doubt on Baha'u'llah's claim to be the returned Messiah can conveniently be overlooked - and yet also that you hold to a literalist conservative Christian interpretation that holds - with almost zero genuine scriptural support - to a futurist eschatological position that permits Baha'u'llah to fulfill "prophecies" that were really accounts of events that had (when they were written down) already happened in antiquity.

Baha’u’llah did exactly what the Bible says the Spirit of truth would do...

We know that the gospel accounts are just stories written about Jesus long after Jesus walked the earth, so there is no way to verify that they ever transpired as recorded.

I rest my case!

 

[CG Didymus]

Well yes! I mean the Baha'i interpretation makes perfect sense if you ignore the fact that the Christian scriptures so clearly relate these "prophecies" about the Comforter etc. to events that had already happened before they sat down to record the sayings of Jesus in writing. In the case of John's gospel, in particular, there is, by traditional belief, a gap of more than 60 years between the appearance of the "Comforter" at Pentecost 33 AD as recorded in Acts of the Apostles 2 and the recording of Jesus' prophecy about sending the "Comforter"
in John's Gospel that was written (according to the conservative Christian tradition that is being hailed as an arbiter of truth in this thread) very close to the end of the 1st century AD. Prophecy is normally meant to be written in advance - not after the event - but that this "Comforter" is what John intended his Jesus to be referring to is absolutely obvious to me and although it fails as prophecy per se could certainly be accepted as a promise of Christ on a Christian interpretation - but I absolutely fail to see how, on any fair and unbiased reading, it could possibly be true that John intended to portray Jesus talking about something that would not happen for another 19 centuries. Never in a month of Sundays!

Well for one thing, it is not prophecy if it was written after the event. Therefore, John had to be written before the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost. Same thing with Daniel, detractors can't believe how accurate prophecy can be, so they make the excuse that they were written after. But why bother, when it's much easier to cherry-pick and invent spiritual meanings to things to make them prophetic?

 

[Rough Beast Sloucher]

With all due respect, I was never a Christian before I was a Baha'i so I am not that familiar with the gospel accounts. We know that the gospel accounts are just stories written about Jesus long after Jesus walked the earth, so there is no way to verify that they ever transpired as recorded. I know the specific verses in Luke that refer to Jesus appearing and eating with the disciples and if they are true my best guess is that the Spirit of Jesus appeared to the disciples as a body to restore their faith in Him, although nobody can really prove that. But nobody can prove that the physical body of Jesus rose from the dead either so it is just a belief. Not all Christians believe it as can be seen on this website:

The resurrection of Jesus Christ Is it a fact or a religious myth?

For the sake of argument, even if the body of Jesus rose from the dead there are no verses in the Bible that state that Jesus ascended to heaven in the same body. Christians normally cite these verses:
.
Acts 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

However, there is another explanation for what the angels saw in Acts 1:10-11. It was the Christ Spirit that ascended, not a body, and that is what the angels saw. That makes perfect sense since angels can see spirits. Descending from heaven upon the clouds means that the spirit of Jesus, the Christ Spirit, will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God and will appear in the form of the human temple. Though delivered from the womb of Mary, Jesus in reality descended from the heaven of the will of God, so Baha’u’llah descended in like manner, from the heaven of the will of God.

In Luke 24:39-43 the risen Jesus definitely has a physically real body. In Acts 1:9-11, Jesus ascends into the clouds witnessed by the disciples. If only the spirit of Jesus ascended, the disciples would not be looking at the sky but at the dead physical body of Jesus on the ground. And it is not the angels who see Jesus ascend but the disciples. And finally, it is Jesus the Son of Man who is to return from the clouds as in the Olivet Discourse, not anyone else.

 

[CG Didymus]

With all due respect, I was never a Christian before I was a Baha'i so I am not that familiar with the gospel accounts. We know that the gospel accounts are just stories written about Jesus long after Jesus walked the earth, so there is no way to verify that they ever transpired as recorded. I know the specific verses in Luke that refer to Jesus appearing and eating with the disciples and if they are true my best guess is that the Spirit of Jesus appeared to the disciples as a body to restore their faith in Him, although nobody can really prove that. But nobody can prove that the physical body of Jesus rose from the dead either so it is just a belief. Not all Christians believe it as can be seen on this website:

The resurrection of Jesus Christ Is it a fact or a religious myth?

For the sake of argument, even if the body of Jesus rose from the dead there are no verses in the Bible that state that Jesus ascended to heaven in the same body. Christians normally cite these verses:
.
Acts 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

However, there is another explanation for what the angels saw in Acts 1:10-11. It was the Christ Spirit that ascended, not a body, and that is what the angels saw. That makes perfect sense since angels can see spirits. Descending from heaven upon the clouds means that the spirit of Jesus, the Christ Spirit, will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God and will appear in the form of the human temple. Though delivered from the womb of Mary, Jesus in reality descended from the heaven of the will of God, so Baha’u’llah descended in like manner, from the heaven of the will of God.

Read the account. It goes from Jesus getting killed, buried and then the whole thing about rising and appearing. So did the writers believe they were writing about actual events?