Resurrection of Christ - What's the evidence for and against a literal resurrection

[siti]

Those are no-brainers for anyone who knows how to interpret the Bible.

I'm with the Apostle Paul on this aspect - I'd much rather use my brain than not if its all the same to you (1 Corinthians 14:19)

 

[Trailblazer]

You picked the good bits and rejected the bad bits of the religious traditions surrounding Moses, Jesus and Mohammad. If you really want to understand my take on that have a look at my comments in the earlier part of the "Great Beings" thread.

Okay, thanks for explaining that. I have not had time to even peek at the Great Beings thread yet. I have all I can do to keep up on about four threads I am posting on. I have a week off work next week so hopefully I will have some time to do some reading on that thread.

Anyway, I'm not picking on Baha'is - I am investigating Baha'i beliefs - would you prefer I just agree with everything you say or confine myself to commenting uncritically? In that case, you should post in a Baha'i DIR forum rather a debate forum I think.

I was just joking about you picking on Baha'is... I know you are just doing your due diligence. You should not take me too seriously, and I try to make that clear with my or my

Oh no, I do not mind criticism of my beliefs at all... This forum is rather mild in that regard... I just left a forum I was on for four years where my Baha'i beliefs were under constant attack, and sometimes me too for holding them. I was the only Baha'i on that forum comprised mostly of nonbelievers with a few Christians, a Buddhist and a Jew. For about a year and a half, I was only able to post anything about Baha'i on one thread entitled "Baha'i." No other Baha'is would post on that forum because they considered the forum owner unjust. I finally left because the forum owner accused me falsely and temporarily suspended my ability to post.

But don't take it personally, I am probing your belief system and if it seems a bit invasive or undignified sometimes I apologize - but I am learning a lot. Not that I am going to become a Baha'i - I can tell you that for sure - but your religion does have some really positive aspects (as I have acknowledged elsewhere) and, as I have also said, as a relative newcomer to the religious topography of the world, studying it seems to provide a fairly unique insight into how new religions establish their identity and subsume fragments of the earlier traditions that they have grown out of.

No, I do not take it personally at all, sometimes I throw those comments out to see if people want to share about themselves and what their interests are, as you just did. I have not been into this religion gig very long either; although I have been a Baha'i for 47 years, I was in hibernation until the last five years for personal reasons. Also, I was never a member of any religion before I became a Baha'i so that is why I do not know the Bible or any other religions. I just was not interested in religion most of my life, but now that I am back trying to do the Baha'i thing I feel it is my obligation to learn about other religions, and I am now genuinely curious. I have learned a lot about Christianity and Judaism on various forums I have been on.

So in short, carry on!

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm with the Apostle Paul on this aspect - I'd much rather use my brain than not if its all the same to you (1 Corinthians 14:19)

I was just joking again... I am a bit loopy today because I have hardly slept all week! I should probably be more careful what I say when I am this tired.

What I meant was that it is obvious to me what those verses mean, but obviously everyone does not have the Baha'i perspective, as I well know from discussing those verses with Christians for so long.

 

[oldbadger]

Well, that is why we needed a “new” Messenger from God to bring “new” teachings that cannot be tampered with and easily misconstrued. The Bible is a Pandora’s Box.

Ah, but over the past year on RF I reckon that Bahai has taken a beating to its reputation.
Some of us discovered that the 'new teachings' (writings) have been severely tampered with and easily misconstrued. We found a Pandora's box.

Previously, over about half a century I had been only slightly negative about Bahai (after sad experiences with some bahais) and other members had been 'about neutral', so we didn't particularly start out with any agenda, but our findings ended up tearing into the claims, history, possible future... of bahai. And the saddest part was the reaction of some Bahai members who began to make very bad personal claims about some investigating debaters.

You weren't there to present Bahai your way, so you might put things differently.

 

[oldbadger]

You picked the good bits and rejected the bad bits of the religious traditions surrounding Moses, Jesus and Mohammad. If you really want to understand my take on that have a look at my comments in the earlier part of the "Great Beings" thread.

Anybody who wants to research the Great Beings thread is unlikely to ever be seen again!
On occasions when I needed to look back for a partiocular sentence or post it could take me hours.

Anyway, I'm not picking on Baha'is - I am investigating Baha'i beliefs - would you prefer I just agree with everything you say or confine myself to commenting uncritically? In that case, you should post in a Baha'i DIR forum rather a debate forum I think.

Just so.......... it has always been intense question and investigation, and I do believe beyond doubt that if this had been a 'public-debate with formal vote by previously detached audience' that Bahai would have suffered terribly.
At least this member is starting out afresh......

 

[Neb]

What point did you want to make about 1 John 1 as it pertains to the resurrection?

I was just following your premise

I would presume that none of the actual disciples of Christ believed He literally rose from the death given its improbability. What we have as a record are gospels written by second or third generation Christians based on oral traditions some 35 - 65 years after Jesus was crucified.

First, we have to establish the connection between the apostles and the Lord Jesus’ earthly ministry, death, and resurrection. Were they the first generation of Christians who wrote the gospel? Now, since “no ones really knows for certain” that John, the apostle, is the author of the epistles, then I think it is safe to say that John, the apostle, is the author.

If you remember I gave you this answer

1Jn 1:1 “That which was from the beginning, that which we have heard, that which we have seen with our eyes, that which we beheld, and our hands handled, concerning the Word of life”

I believe this is a reference to the earthly ministry, death, and the resurrection of the Lord Jesus.

Jn 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and see my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and put it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
Jn 20:28 Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Jn 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

And if you read the following verse, i.e., 1John 1:2 you will see the word “MANIFESTED” from the Greek word “PHANEROO”, to make visible, clear, manifest, known, that is contrary to gnosticism belief that Christ did not exist at all, therefore, there is no crucifixion and resurrection.

1Jn 1:2 (and the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare unto you the life, the eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us);
1Jn 1:3 that which we have seen and heard declare we unto you also, that ye also may have fellowship with us: yea, and our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ:

And again:
The very reason why the NT must be written during the first generation of Christianity is, the “eyewitnesses and ministers of the word” –Luke 1:2 are still alive and could pass on “the exact truth about the things you have been taught” –Luke 1:4 on to the next generation.

 

[Trailblazer]

Ah, but over the past year on RF I reckon that Bahai has taken a beating to its reputation.
Some of us discovered that the 'new teachings' (writings) have been severely tampered with and easily misconstrued. We found a Pandora's box.

What do you mean by tampered with? What do you mean by misconstrued? What was in the Pandora’s Box?

Previously, over about half a century I had been only slightly negative about Bahai (after sad experiences with some bahais) and other members had been 'about neutral', so we didn't particularly start out with any agenda, but our findings ended up tearing into the claims, history, possible future... of bahai. And the saddest part was the reaction of some Bahai members who began to make very bad personal claims about some investigating debaters.

You weren't there to present Bahai your way, so you might put things differently.

I have no idea what those “findings” were that ended up tearing into the claims, history, and possible future of the Baha’i Faith… Are those posted on this forum somewhere?

 

[loverofhumanity]

That is my understanding, but I think this will vary, as I do not think everyone is going to experience the same level of joy as others will. However, if we played our cards right, I think it will exceed any earthly joy. In my case, it would not be that difficult to exceed that.

I do not know where in the Writings it says that animals cease to exist except that one passage in Some Answered Questions.

“The animal spirit is that all-embracing sensory power which is realized through the composition and combination of the elements. When this composition disintegrates, that spirit likewise perishes and becomes non-existent. It may be likened to this lamp: When oil, wick, and flame are brought together and combined, it is lit; and when this combination disintegrates—that is, when the constituent parts are separated from one another—the lamp also is extinguished.” Some Answered Questions

I am no physicist but I can use Google.com. The law of conservation of mass states that mass can neither be created nor be destroyed but can be converted. Extinguished and converted have different meanings. Perhaps that was written before discoveries were made in physics that say that matter can never be destroyed.

I think that Abdu’l-Baha was quoted as saying that if you need your pet it will be there but I could never find the source. Maybe that means that animals will be there (wherever there is) but we will not need them or see them unless we need them. I do not know if you ever read the book entitled Private Dowding wherein the man killed in battle in WWI was communicating to a medium from the spiritual world. In his story his dog came to him. He was a loner and had no family so maybe God knew he needed his dog. Was the dog really there, or was that just something his mind conjured up? Also, in many NDE accounts people see their pets and animal communicators communicate with deceased pets. Of course none of this is definitive but neither is what Abdu’l-Baha said about “extinguished.” Had Baha’u’llah written it I would be inclined to agree, but even then we have the matter of interpretation of the Writings, unless He had made it absolutely clear. Why was this never even addressed in the Holy Bible?

It really is not so much I think I will “need” my cats as the fact that I wonder why God would create animals and allow them to suffer and die as they do, unless they have a future existence in some form. This alone is enough to make me an unbeliever. Of course animals do not have a soul like humans but I would be content to know that animal spirit continues in some form, even if I never saw the animals in the spiritual world. And what about plants? In NDE experiences people see pastoral scenes… Are those just imaginary?

Abdul-Baha said: “The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194

So maybe plants and animals take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.

Somewhere in the Writings it says that for everything in this world there is a counterpart in the next world. I assume that means living things and not man-made things like houses and cars… My worst nightmare would be if we still needed cars to get around for all of eternity! Heaven to me is a place where cars and highways do not exist and there is no home maintenance… Now I am just being silly. Sorry I took this thread so far off track.

I think you’ve got absolutely nothing to worry about because you seemed to have it all sorted out. Our material form will change but a love we had will not be forgotten.

Also, after being born into this world and being here, do we miss the womb? We may have had an environment we may never have wanted to part with but can anyone honestly say they would rather be in the womb than here?

I think that it’s unbearable for you to contemplate the next world without the conditions you live in now, but, like the womb, once you reach that eternal, unimaginably glorious world will you wish you were back here?

If the difference between the womb and this world is so enormous then the next world may be such that we look back on this world like a former womb with no thought or wish to return.

Taking that into account, you will not forget the love you had for your pets and they for you and they will reside in your heart always. Love never dies so their love for you always lives on.

I had a dream once that I died. When I got into the ‘sky’ I was floating and didn’t know how to move. So I emulated flying or breast stroking to try and move. Then I ‘sensed’ other ‘presences’ who mentally communicated to me to just ‘think’ and I would be there. So it was ‘thought travel’ there.

I then ‘thought’ ‘Haifa’ and behold, all the Sacred Shrines were before me. In a flash.

Then I saw a fountain and the Maids of Heaven beckoned to me to enter and be cleansed as Baha’u’llah was waiting to see me.

I felt I had returned home and passed the test I was sent here to pass. My soul exploded with joy as if a sun exploded and I kept saying ‘at last, at last’ and I really thought I had ascended.

Then I awoke and I was both distraught and overjoyed. Overjoyed at seeing a glimpse of something so beautiful all I wanted was to stay, but distraught that I had to come back.

It will all go well for you. I’m sure.

 

[oldbadger]

What do you mean by tampered with? What do you mean by misconstrued? What was in the Pandora’s Box?

I have no idea what those “findings” were that ended up tearing into the claims, history, and possible future of the Baha’i Faith… Are those posted on this forum somewhere?

Yeah, they're in the Great Beings thread.

The Bab's writings had been selected through and parts not translated into English nor included in the Bayan. The Bab;'s writings originally included some outrageous ideas, but these were discovered through reading outside reports.

Many of Bahauallah's writings had been adjusted in explanation by Abdul Baha.

Bahauallah's treatment in Tehran prison began to look like a 'wake-up' call rather than a waiting for the call to dearth. His 'imprisonment' in places such as Istanbul were in fact an 'exile' from Persia, probably to save his life. He was a free person there, together with his staff/servants for nearly all the time.

We discovered that his level international interest and favour was HUGE and protected him all through. Not quite the Bahai story.

We discovered that in a Bahai World only Bahais wuld have a vote, Local and National Spiritual Assemblies would turn into Houses of Justice which would rule with a hard hand, extending theocratic legislation and some severe punishments.

We discovered that Houses of justice at all levels would be regarded as infallible and thus utterly dictatorial.

Women would have less positions/roles than men, not only in the UHJ.

And most interesting of all, when Bahai members went under strain in the debate, their posts became very personal and insulting to some of us. I for one began to see that Bahais see themselves and their theocratic religion as the utmost in holiness, and thus anybody who rattled it had to be, by definition, unholy/demonic, so if you extend that into a Bahai World I wouldn't give a fig for outsider complainants.

We discovered that far from being a peaceful religion, that Bahai would field a World Police force, armed and prepared to bring armed conflict to any who might be believed to be deserving. The Bab also supported armed conflict where necessary.

Oh..... where to stop writing..... And the Double-think which switched according to Bahai need reminded me of George Orwell's '1984'.

Other members might be able to add to the list........... I could.

Otherwise Bahai is ok.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I can appreciate that point of view, but the problem I have with this is that it amounts to a rejection of NT theology not an affirmation of it. That is fine - I have no problem with someone rejecting NT theology in favour of a more modern, perhaps more expansive and inclusive theology that also admits a more up-to-date, more scientifically consistent worldview - but then to simultaneously claim "exact fulfillment" of miraculously-revealed prophecies that are contained within the Biblical expression of the very worldview you have so roundly (and rightly) rejected seems just a tad inconsistent. If the NT writers were so badly mistaken about the resurrection that they supposed had actually happened right in front of their own eyes - on what possible basis can we then claim that they were nevertheless invariably spot on in regard to details of the far distant future?

I think you see more than what I would be saying.

From the way I see it, no matter what they saw and believed did happen (we can never now really know), God has allowed scripture to be written in the way it is now given to us, as it does contain sufficient proof for the promise to be seen and accepted. It was written with the correct meaning contained within, well suited to our age of understanding.

What is also is explained by Baha'u'llah is that Gods Knowledge of the past and future is Complete even down to all our secret thoughts. Thus all Scriptures are given to guide all humanity, without an interference in free will. The Guidance has been given taking into account every persons free will choices. Baha'u'llah has said having knowledge of what will happen, is not the cause of it happening.

I think Abdul'baha explained this well, here is that explanation;

"....The obstacle which prevents the so-called religious man from accepting the teachings of God is literal interpretation. Moses announced the coming of Christ. The Israelites were awaiting him with the greatest impatience and anxiety, but when he came they called him Beelzebub. "The conditions laid down in the Bible for the coming of the expected one were not fulfilled," they said. They did not understand that the conditions were symbolical.
For instance, it is written -- "He will come from an unknown place." Jesus came from Nazareth. "How can this be the Messiah?" they reasoned. "It is written -- he will carry an iron scepter, that is to say, his shepherd's staff will be a sword. This man has no sword. It was prophesised -- he will be seated on the throne of David; behold this man has not so much as a mat whereon to sit. He was to spread the law of Moses; this man, on the contrary, seeks to destroy it. How can he be the promulgator of God's law?" they scornfully laughed.
It was prophesised that the east and west would be united under the Jewish law; the animals would be at peace one with another; that the wolf would no longer devour the sheep. They did not see these conditions fulfilled. Roman tyranny enveloped the world and they crucified the Christ.
The Jews were blind to reality. The real Christ came from the city of light in the eternal realms Christ is a king. His shepherd's staff, that is, his tongue, was a sword dividing the true from the false. The throne of David is not a material throne but an eternal kingdom. Christ re-established this kingdom; it has been forgotten. Christ conquered the east and the west. This means a spiritual victory, not a material one.
Animals were to live in peace. This means the Chaldeans, the Syrians, the Romans, the Greeks, who were to make peace among themselves, for Christ spread the cause of peace. As the Jews did not understand these things, were deprived of the beauty of the Christ. Behold again, the Christians are expecting the stars to fall and Christ to appear in the clouds, yet these are but symbols. They are awaiting a Christ from a heaven that does not exist.
Let us awake! Let us acquire a new intelligence in order to interpret the symbols and become acquainted with the mysteries. The real Christ's spirit has come again from the supreme apex to illumine the world.
In the Gospel, Jesus said, "I am come from heaven." Physically, he was born of a woman, but the Christ's reality is from the city of eternity, for the heaven is not a place but a state of consciousness.
Man has a sacred power which permits him to discover the inner significances, the reality of invisible things. Ponder over these statements, so that the portals of divine wisdom and infinite knowledge may open before thy face...."

Abdu'l-Baha : Divine Philosophy

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Yeah, they're in the Great Beings thread.

The Bab's writings had been selected through and parts not translated into English nor included in the Bayan. The Bab;'s writings originally included some outrageous ideas, but these were discovered through reading outside reports.

Without being able to read the Bab’s Writings in English there is no way for me to know what is in them... There are a lot of calumnies hurled at the Bahai Faith so outside reports need to be carefully scrutinized. I would have to see the outside reports.

Many of Bahauallah's writings had been adjusted in explanation by Abdul Baha.

I guess you mean that Abdu’l-Baha misinterpreted what Baha’u’llah meant? I am not sure how we could know, but we have the Original Writings of Baha’u’llah, so if something does not match up it should be obvious.

Bahauallah's treatment in Tehran prison began to look like a 'wake-up' call rather than a waiting for the call to dearth. His 'imprisonment' in places such as Istanbul were in fact an 'exile' from Persia, probably to save his life. He was a free person there, together with his staff/servants for nearly all the time.

We discovered that his level international interest and favour was HUGE and protected him all through. Not quite the Bahai story.

I do not see why these would cast a shadow on Baha’u’llah?

We discovered that in a Bahai World only Bahaiswuld have a vote, Local and National Spiritual Assemblies would turn into Houses of Justice which would rule with a hard hand, extending theocratic legislation and some severe punishments.

We discovered that Houses of justice at all levels would be regarded as infallible and thus utterly dictatorial.

Women would have less positions/roles than men, not only in the UHJ.

Where did you get this information? I hope the citations are on the thread.

And most interesting of all, when Bahai members went under strain in the debate, their posts became very personal and insulting to some of us. I for one began to see that Bahais see themselves and their theocratic religion as the utmost in holiness, and thus anybody who rattled it had to be, by definition, unholy/demonic, so if you extend that into a Bahai World I wouldn't give a fig for outsider complainants.

I will have to go and read for myself. It does tend to cut both ways in these discussions.

We discovered that far from being a peaceful religion, that Bahai would field a World Police force, armed and prepared to bring armed conflict to any who might be believed to be deserving. The Bab also supported armed conflict where necessary.

Oh..... where to stop writing..... And the Double-think which switched according to Bahai need reminded me of George Orwell's '1984'.

Again, I would need to see the source of such information. There is a lot of inaccurate information on the internet.

Other members might be able to add to the list........... I could.

Otherwise Bahai is ok.

Otherwise????

 

[Trailblazer]

I think you’ve got absolutely nothing to worry about because you seemed to have it all sorted out. Our material form will change but a love we had will not be forgotten.

I am not really worried for myself, I just want to get to the bottom of this… I realize some Baha’is have just accepted what Abdu’l Baha wrote in SAQ as the final word, but that is too cursory for me. I think there needs to be more than once sentence to have certainty regarding the animal spirit surviving death.

Are we going to remember what we had in this mortal life after we have moved on? I am not so sure, given what I have read. The Baha’i Writings are not the only valid source of information about the afterlife even if they are the only infallible source.

Also, after being born into this world and being here, do we miss the womb? We may have had an environment we may never have wanted to part with but can anyone honestly say they would rather be in the womb than here?

That would depend upon what awaited us in the world outside the womb whether we would prefer it. That analogy fails for people whose earthly life was a storehouse of suffering, just as it would fail for those who died and carried the tortured state of the soul with them to the next world. Sure, we have some guarantees, but how can we really know? Will it be like that for everyone who believed in God?

I think that it’s unbearable for you to contemplate the next world without the conditions you live in now, but, like the womb, once you reach that eternal, unimaginably glorious world will you wish you were back here?

Oh, if you only knew. I could certainly do with a future life that does not have the “conditions” I live in now. There is nothing in this material world I love except animals and my husband and people I converse with.

If the difference between the womb and this world is so enormous then the next world may be such that we look back on this world like a former womb with no thought or wish to return.

I have no doubt that I would never wish to return to this world.

Taking that into account, you will not forget the love you had for your pets and they for you and they will reside in your heart always. Love never dies so their love for you always lives on.

With all due respect, if you have children how would you feel if God said sorry but you will never see them again, but they will be in your heart always?

I had a dream once that I died. When I got into the ‘sky’ I was floating and didn’t know how to move. So I emulated flying or breast stroking to try and move. Then I ‘sensed’ other ‘presences’ who mentally communicated to me to just ‘think’ and I would be there. So it was ‘thought travel’ there.

I then ‘thought’ ‘Haifa’ and behold, all the Sacred Shrines were before me. In a flash.

Then I saw a fountain and the Maids of Heaven beckoned to me to enter and be cleansed as Baha’u’llah was waiting to see me.

I felt I had returned home and passed the test I was sent here to pass. My soul exploded with joy as if a sun exploded and I kept saying ‘at last, at last’ and I really thought I had ascended.

Then I awoke and I was both distraught and overjoyed. Overjoyed at seeing a glimpse of something so beautiful all I wanted was to stay, but distraught that I had to come back.

Thanks for sharing your dream. I have read similar stories about thought travel and seeing Jesus or Baha’u’llah in NDEs… Thought travel certainly sounds a lot better than car travel. If there was only one reason for me to prefer the next world it would be because there are no cars, roads or traffic! That might sound like a small thing, but you’d have to know my life in order to understand.

I believe it will be like your dream for you and others who were close to God and loved Baha’u’llah. Unfortunately I do not feel like I am in that data set. But I am not worried because I know I have done the best I could with the hand I was dealt and there is still a ways to go… To those who much is given, much is expected.My husband has been a Baha’i for 53 years and Hand of the Cause Ugo Giachery was his friend. He told my husband that sincerity and effort were all that God expects.

It will all go well for you. I’m sure.

Thanks for your good thoughts.

 

[oldbadger]

Without being able to read the Bab’s Writings in English there is no way for me to know what is in them... There are a lot of calumnies hurled at the Bahai Faith so outside reports need to be carefully scrutinized. I would have to see the outside reports.
I guess you mean that Abdu’l-Baha misinterpreted what Baha’u’llah meant? I am not sure how we could know, but we have the Original Writings of Baha’u’llah, so if something does not match up it should be obvious.

I do not see why these would cast a shadow on Baha’u’llah?

Where did you get this information? I hope the citations are on the thread.

I will have to go and read for myself. It does tend to cut both ways in these discussions.

Again, I would need to see the source of such information. There is a lot of inaccurate information on the internet.

Otherwise????

Yeah.......... as the info was produced, from Bahai writings and the writings of ex-Bahais excommunicated for publishing info with sources, so the Bahai seemed to go into free-fall.

My personal 'Bahai Info' file in my 'histories' section of research exploded from a few thumbnails into scores.

How did it affect me? My first wife was Bahai, and long ago I put her Bahai prayer book and others in her grave with the LSA's permission, but I kept '7 Valleys & 4 Valleys' because I liked some of it. Only last week I discarded it in a clearout I was having. That's how it affected me.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I am not really worried for myself, I just want to get to the bottom of this… I realize some Baha’is have just accepted what Abdu’l Baha wrote in SAQ as the final word, but that is too cursory for me. I think there needs to be more than once sentence to have certainty regarding the animal spirit surviving death.

Are we going to remember what we had in this mortal life after we have moved on? I am not so sure, given what I have read. The Baha’i Writings are not the only valid source of information about the afterlife even if they are the only infallible source.

That would depend upon what awaited us in the world outside the womb whether we would prefer it. That analogy fails for people whose earthly life was a storehouse of suffering, just as it would fail for those who died and carried the tortured state of the soul with them to the next world. Sure, we have some guarantees, but how can we really know? Will it be like that for everyone who believed in God?

Oh, if you only knew. I could certainly do with a future life that does not have the “conditions” I live in now. There is nothing in this material world I love except animals and my husband and people I converse with.

I have no doubt that I would never wish to return to this world.

With all due respect, if you have children how would you feel if God said sorry but you will never see them again, but they will be in your heart always?

Thanks for sharing your dream. I have read similar stories about thought travel and seeing Jesus or Baha’u’llah in NDEs… Thought travel certainly sounds a lot better than car travel. If there was only one reason for me to prefer the next world it would be because there are no cars, roads or traffic! That might sound like a small thing, but you’d have to know my life in order to understand.

I believe it will be like your dream for you and others who were close to God and loved Baha’u’llah. Unfortunately I do not feel like I am in that data set. But I am not worried because I know I have done the best I could with the hand I was dealt and there is still a ways to go… To those who much is given, much is expected.My husband has been a Baha’i for 53 years and Hand of the Cause Ugo Giachery was his friend. He told my husband that sincerity and effort were all that God expects.

Thanks for your good thoughts.

According to the Writings we will remember the life we had here.

And know thou for a certainty that in the divine worlds the spiritual beloved ones will recognize one another, and will seek union with each other, but a spiritual union. Likewise a love that one may have entertained for anyone will not be forgotten in the world of the Kingdom, nor wilt thou forget there the life that thou hadst in the material world. – Abdu’l-Baha, cited in Baha’u’llah and the New Era, p. 190

 

[Trailblazer]

According to the Writings we will remember the life we had here.

And know thou for a certainty that in the divine worlds the spiritual beloved ones will recognize one another, and will seek union with each other, but a spiritual union. Likewise a love that one may have entertained for anyone will not be forgotten in the world of the Kingdom, nor wilt thou forget there the life that thou hadst in the material world. – Abdu’l-Baha, cited in Baha’u’llah and the New Era, p. 190

Thanks, I remember that one now... I can't remember ALL the Writings, there are just too many of them.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yeah.......... as the info was produced, from Bahai writings and the writings of ex-Bahais excommunicated for publishing info with sources, so the Bahai seemed to go into free-fall.

My personal 'Bahai Info' file in my 'histories' section of research exploded from a few thumbnails into scores.

How did it affect me? My first wife was Bahai, and long ago I put her Bahai prayer book and others in her grave with the LSA's permission, but I kept '7 Valleys & 4 Valleys' because I liked some of it. Only last week I discarded it in a clearout I was having. That's how it affected me.

Thanks for sharing. So I take it that you have some real "issues" with the Baha'i Faith. You are not alone. I dealt with that on another forum for four years before I came here a month ago. Nobody liked the "new" religion.

To me it is rather simple. What I believe has nothing to do with my feelings, it is all based upon logic. Baha'u'llah was either the Manifestation of God for this new age, the return of Christ, and the Promised One of All Ages, or not. It is all about the evidence and there is simply too much evidence to refute His claim... All the stuff the Baha'i administration does is not that important to me because this is an infant Faith and humans are fallible. It is all about what Baha'u'llah did and wrote. What others did after that will have to be worked out but no matter what the Baha'is do we have the Covenant of Baha'u'llah to protect the religion from schism. This is a day that will not be followed by night. It will only continue to get better over time as the Baha'is become more spiritually mature.

 

[Dawnofhope]

First, we have to establish the connection between the apostles and the Lord Jesus’ earthly ministry, death, and resurrection. Were they the first generation of Christians who wrote the gospel? Now, since “no ones really knows for certain” that John, the apostle, is the author of the epistles, then I think it is safe to say that John, the apostle, is the author.

For me, the gospel of John's author is uncertain, but would most likely be a second or third generation Christian intimately acquainted with the stories of Jesus passed down by word of mouth, and most likely the early synoptic gospels too. John provides us with an indispensible portrait of Jesus. There are no parables as with the synoptics, but the stories themselves are very allegorical thus conveying messages of profound spiritual significance as the parables of Jesus do.

If you remember I gave you this answer

1Jn 1:1 “That which was from the beginning, that which we have heard, that which we have seen with our eyes, that which we beheld, and our hands handled, concerning the Word of life”

I believe this is a reference to the earthly ministry, death, and the resurrection of the Lord Jesus.

I agree. Obviously I understand the resurrection of Jesus differently.

Jn 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and see my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and put it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
Jn 20:28 Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Jn 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

I do not believe this to be an historic portrayal but an embellished narrative to assist us understand the transformative power of the Word of God upon those who received and accepted HIs message.

Jn 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and see my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and put it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
Jn 20:28 Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Jn 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

The spirit of Jesus lives though His body be dead.

The body of Christ transformed.

How is the church the Body of Christ?

And if you read the following verse, i.e., 1John 1:2 you will see the word “MANIFESTED” from the Greek word “PHANEROO”, to make visible, clear, manifest, known, that is contrary to gnosticism belief that Christ did not exist at all, therefore, there is no crucifixion and resurrection.

No one on this thread is arguing for gnosticism.

1Jn 1:2 (and the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare unto you the life, the eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us);
1Jn 1:3 that which we have seen and heard declare we unto you also, that ye also may have fellowship with us: yea, and our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ:

If you are looking for points of disagreement between us, I don't think you'll find it in these verses. What's your point?

And again:
The very reason why the NT must be written during the first generation of Christianity is, the “eyewitnesses and ministers of the word” –Luke 1:2 are still alive and could pass on “the exact truth about the things you have been taught” –Luke 1:4 on to the next generation.

You are reading too much into these verses. The author of Luke is providing testimony about Christ and John the Baptist. There is nothing that indicates Luke was an eyewitness or even a first generation Christian. Most scholars agree that He wasn't.

 

[oldbadger]

Thanks for sharing. So I take it that you have some real "issues" with the Baha'i Faith. You are not alone. I dealt with that on another forum for four years before I came here a month ago. Nobody liked the "new" religion.

Back then nobody liked it, because Persia was an Islamic theocracy, and apostasy was a theocratic crime , let alone the action of proselytising a whole new religion. And so the Babi religion was insurrection and revolution ............ sure nobody liked it.

To me it is rather simple. What I believe has nothing to do with my feelings, it is all based upon logic. Baha'u'llah was either the Manifestation of God for this new age, the return of Christ, and the Promised One of All Ages, or not. It is all about the evidence and there is simply too much evidence to refute His claim...

OK...... fair enough. I don't challenge people's Faiths or religions, I only question claims of those that sell their faith or religions.
The first hiccup for me is that I don't believe that the Galilean handworker and healing magi Yeshua BarYosef was a Prophet or Manifestation of God, nor the Baptist before him, so the Pyramid leading to the Bab and Bahauallah collapsed before they arrived, well, for me it did.

All the stuff the Baha'i administration does is not that important to me because this is an infant Faith and humans are fallible. It is all about what Baha'u'llah did and wrote.

Bahauallah wrote that the UHJ is infallible, and that if it decides that 'up' is 'down', then it is, (or something like that.).

What others did after that will have to be worked out but no matter what the Baha'is do we have the Covenant of Baha'u'llah to protect the religion from schism.

Fair enough. Most of my earlier posts showed that I only take interest in what the Prophets wrote, and not the interpretations and jiggling of any others. But it seemed to me as if the schisms were mostly caused by the writings of those that came after.

This is a day that will not be followed by night. It will only continue to get better over time as the Baha'is become more spiritually mature.

Ah....... Days are always followed by nights.
The Yin-Yan of all is a revolving returning circulating life, without which all is lost, either physically or philosophically.

The Universe will not stop for Bahai, the seasons will not end, and nightime will come................. but then I'm a Deist.

 

[Muffled]

Many Christians believe Jesus was crucified and literally rose from the dead. An empty tomb and the appearance of Jesus before many as recorded in the gospels are cited as irrefutable proofs by conservative Christians.

Dr Bart Ehrhart, Christian and biblical scholar has argued:

'Even if we want to believe in the resurrection of Jesus, that belief is a theological belief. You can’t prove the resurrection. It’s not susceptible to historical evidence. It’s faith. Believers believe it and take it on faith, and history cannot prove it.'

Is There Historical Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus? The Craig-Ehrman Debate | Reasonable Faith

The resurrection as part of an allegorical narrative assists us understand the eternal nature of the soul and the power of Christ's Teachings to bestow new spiritual upon those who follow Him.

So did Christ really rise from the dead and what's the evidence He did? Is there evidence to support He didn't?

With all due respect to my Christian brothers and sisters, why is Christ's Resurrection so fundamental to Christian belief?

I believe the resurrection is evident because the Bible says it is.

There is Biblical evidence that the religious leaders lied in saying that the body of Jesus was stolen. It is easy to believe they lied because they opposed Jesus and wanted Him dead.

I believe it brings assurance of an after life. It also means that the Spirit of God that is in Jesus will be in the Christian as well.

I believe there is not an iota of a suggestion in the Bible that it is an allegory.

 

[Muffled]

Clearly the apostle Paul argues fervently for the importance of the resurrection. However if you consider St Paul's words earlier in the chapter we read:

After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
1 Corinthians 15:6-8

This is a problem for a conservative Christian worldview as Paul never witnessed the resurrected Christ, instead he heard the words of Jesus on the road to Damascus. Acts 9:1-9

And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

Paul's experience was long after the 40 days of Jesus's alleged appearances after His crucifixion. So Paul did not see the resurrected Jesus, yet he likens his non-resurrection experience to those that supposedly did see their Lord. It therefore makes sense Paul in Corinthians is writing of resurrection experiences that were a mystical experience or part of an allegorical story, don't you think? This allegorical narrative and/or mystical experience still places Christ's resurrection as central to Christian belief. It also emphasises the spiritual over the physical.

I believe we do not know what Paul saw before he was blinded but it is not inconceivable that he saw the risen Christ as he states.

I believe that is illogical and does not follow from the premise. Paul does not say he saw Jesus within the forty days but says he saw him out of due time. It is not inconceivable that Jesus returned for this very special task.

I believe Paul has not reported this as a mystical experience or an allegory.