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Resurrection of Christ - What's the evidence for and against a literal resurrection

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
But don't Baha'is believe in the virgin birth? How does that work?

Off topic, but a good question:

"As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended. The Founder of the Christian Faith is designated by Bahá'u'lláh as the 'Spirit of God,' is proclaimed as the One Who 'appeared out of the breath of the Holy Ghost,' and is even extolled as the Essence of the Spirit. His mother is described as 'that veiled and immortal, that most beauteous countenance,' and the station of her Son eulogized as a 'station which hath been exalted above the imaginings of all that dwell on earth', whilst Peter is recognized as one whom God has caused 'the mysteries of wisdom and of utterance to flow out of his mouth'...."
(Shoghi Effendi: The Promised Day is Come, pp. 109-110)

Baha'is consider the virgin birth a Divine mystery that is upheld and leave it at that.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I am not a part of any community. My 'faith' consists of believing that a real historical Jesus really said some things that managed to survive more or less intact embedded in the Gospels, things that make good sense concerning a reasonable way to live. None of these things were really new, often being straight out of Jewish scripture. It is the stress placed on living the spirit of righteousness in our hearts and in our actions rather than 'believing' or following a script of explicit do's and dont's that impressed me.

To me, Jesus was not divine, or a miracle worker or the Messiah etc.He was a guy who said some things that really resonate with me in a powerful way. I am not saying anyone else has to feel or believe that way. But I do.

That sounds excellent. Thanks for sharing.
 

siti

Well-Known Member
I know that the Holy Spirit was poured out on the disciples
How do you know this? Is it because the...
...ancient scriptures that have too many problems to even be listed...
...includes an account of this event

Why are we even talking about them thousands of years later? Well, because so many people are attached to what they believe, that’s why...
...exactly - people believe things like this for example:
Mind you, Baha’u’llah could have been a prominent minister in the government and lived an easy life... Are there any other men who have done what He did, not to mention fulfilling all the OT and NT prophecies for the Return of Christ?
And so it continues -
The Bible is a Pandora’s Box of contradictions and nobody can possibly know what meanings to ascribe to so many of the verses...
...the scripture prove that Baha'u'llah is the promised Messiah...the scriptures are mistaken...but infallibly indicated the year of Baha'u'llah's appearance...the scriptures are ancient and irrelevant to our times...but ALL the prophecies in them refer specifically to our time...

Everyone knows that there is something wrong with those verses
Yes - they don't fit in with a Baha'i interpretation - obviously they are wrong.

and in all of this, even though you
rely more on logic and reason
you still don't see any problem with your logic or reason?
 
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Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
So did the gospel writers know that they weren't literally true or were they deluded?

I believe the stories the gospel authors wrote were most likely stories they had heard as a result of oral traditions and hearing preaching from the likes of St Paul and the apostles. I believe the gospel writers were unlikely eye witnesses as the evangelical Christians claim for John and Matthew but can not be certain. If they were eye witnesses it doesn't change a lot. If they weren't eye witnesses then we can not say for certain whether they knew the stories were literally true or not. I believe on the balance of probabilities they had some awareness that it was allegorical rather than literal. I do not believe the gospel writers were deluded at all.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Baha'u'llah was a gospel writer? How did I miss that?

Do you think the gospel writers were deluded in the sense of having a major mental illness, or perhaps they were simply mistaken?
 

siti

Well-Known Member
Baha'is consider the virgin birth a Divine mystery that is upheld and leave it at that.
Well now - I'd missed that too! So virgin birth and immaculate conception a loose YES but resurrection and original sin a definite NO??? Curiouser and curiouser cried Alice! OK - maybe sliding off topic again but what is the point of the immaculate conception (noting that this isn't even a Bible teaching but a Catholic doctrine) if there is no original sin? And how on earth (or any other planet for that matter) does a virgin birth take place if science disproves the resurrection?
 

siti

Well-Known Member
Do you think the gospel writers were deluded in the sense of having a major mental illness, or perhaps they were simply mistaken?
They seem to have completely believed in a physical resurrection from the dead, a virgin birth, a literal ascension of Christ to heaven...etc. etc. I think that probably qualifies as deluded...but at least they were consistently (and I'm guessing not wilfully) deluded!
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
They seem to have completely believed in a physical resurrection from the dead, a virgin birth, a literal ascension of Christ to heaven...etc. etc. I think that probably qualifies as deluded...but at least they were consistently (and I'm guessing not wilfully) deluded!

Not to mention religious fanatics...
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
How long was the previous "cycle" and what was it supposed to achieve?
The previous Cycle was the Prophetic Cycle and it was leading up to the Baha’i Cycle, laying the foundation, preparing the way. That was its purpose, as the purpose of every religious Cycle is to prepare the way for the Cycle that will follow.

The Cycle of religion will last no less than 500,000 years is the Universal Cycle, which includes the Adamic Cycle (Prophetic Cycle) and the Baha’i Cycle (Cycle of Fulfillment).

There have been various Universal Cycles of religion since mankind was created. Within each Cycle there were many different Prophets and religions. The Cycle of religion that began with Adam and culminated with Muhammad is called the Adamic Cycle, or the Prophetic Cycle, named as such because it was the Age of Prophecy. There were many Universal Cycles that preceded Adam but they are too remote in history to know anything about.

“And now regarding thy question, “How is it that no records are to be found concerning the Prophets that have preceded Adam, the Father of Mankind, or of the kings that lived in the days of those Prophets?” Know thou that the absence of any reference to them is no proof that they did not actually exist. That no records concerning them are now available, should be attributed to their extreme remoteness, as well as to the vast changes which the earth hath undergone since their time.

Moreover such forms and modes of writing as are now current amongst men were unknown to the generations that were before Adam. There was even a time when men were wholly ignorant of the art of writing, and had adopted a system entirely different from the one which they now use. For a proper exposition of this an elaborate explanation would be required.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 172-173


Muhammad was called the Seal of the Prophets because He was the last prophet in the Adamic Cycle and thus He sealed off the Adamic Cycle. The Bab ushered in a new Cycle of religion called the Age of Fulfillment. All the “new age” movements and all the scientific discoveries we have seen since the last century are the result of the inception of this new Cycle. We are living in a new age of mankind.

Within the Adamic Cycle humanity went through all kinds of ups and downs, but from here on in humanity will only move forward, never again back. Right now we are at the very beginning of the new Cycle so it has the appearances of ups and downs, as people work through all the problems that carried over from the Adamic Cycle.

TABLE: BAHA'I SACRED HISTORY

I. PREVIOUS UNIVERSAL CYCLES - of which no trace remains

II. PRESENT UNIVERSAL CYCLE

 A. ADAMIC CYCLE, CYCLE OF PROPHECY - lasted approximately 6,000 years

1. Adam 1. Indian religious figures
2. Noah - Krishna
3. Abraham
4. Moses 2. Zoroaster
5. Jesus 3. Buddha
6. Muhammad
+ Other unknown or unspecified prophets

 B. BAHA'I CYCLE, CYCLE OF FULFILLMENT - to last 500,000 years

1. The Bab
2. Bahá'u'lláh - Universal Manifestation for this Universal Cycle

a. Heroic, Primitive, or Apostolic Age - 1844-1921 (or 1932 - the death of Bahiyyih Khanum)

i. Ministry of the Bab (1844-53)
ii. Ministry of Bahá'u'lláh (1853-92)
iii. Ministry of `Abdu'l-Bahá (1892-1921)

b. Formative, Transitional, or Iron Age - 1921 -

i. First Epoch (1921-44/46) - Erection of the Administrative Order
ii. Second Epoch (1946-63) - spread of the Faith beyond the confines of the Western Hemisphere
iii. Third Epoch (1963-86) - emergence of the Faith from obscurity and initiation of social and economic development plans
iv. Fourth Epoch (1986- ) - national communities taking on the responsibility for their own development
v. Successive further Epochs

c. Golden Age
Successive Epochs leading to the Most Great Peace

3. Further Manifestations - under the shadow of Bahá'u'lláh

 END OF PRESENT UNIVERSAL CYCLE

III. FURTHER UNIVERSAL CYCLES

Ages and Cycles
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Well now - I'd missed that too! So virgin birth and immaculate conception a loose YES but resurrection and original sin a definite NO??? Curiouser and curiouser cried Alice! OK - maybe sliding off topic again but what is the point of the immaculate conception (noting that this isn't even a Bible teaching but a Catholic doctrine) if there is no original sin? And how on earth (or any other planet for that matter) does a virgin birth take place if science disproves the resurrection?

I thought you would be all over that one like a rash.

It is off topic as you know.

Read the text though. The Baha'is can't cay whether it happened or not.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
There is no way we can know which it was but it does not matter now. The point is that we cannot rely upon these accounts. ;)

As a literal historic account, No.

As a spiritual testimony to the Life and Teachings of Christ, yes. Baha'is see the gospels as reliable in this respect in contrast to the Muslims.
 

siti

Well-Known Member
Read the text though. The Baha'is can't cay whether it happened or not.
Wait a minute, so "confessed...upheld and defended" translates as "can't say whether it happened or not"? You can categorically deny the resurrection (which might just have been a case of a mistaken pronouncement of death - it happens) - and on the grounds of science (as you claimed earlier) - but you "can't say" whether the virgin birth (let alone an eternally immaculate virgin) really happened or not?

Off topic? I think that objection should definitely be overruled - this testimony speaks directly to the competence (or otherwise) of the witness your Honor!
 
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