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Resurrection of Christ - What's the evidence for and against a literal resurrection

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
the kingdom is not all around us
it is written.....
the kingdom of heaven is within you

and that last heartbeat will put you .....at the Door
naked
gathering your 'self' .....you will raise your hand to knock of the Door

a voice behind you will say......
To knock on that Door is betrayal to me!

Some of us will panic and throw ourselves unto the Door
Some of us will try to remain calm.....either way.....
you will raise your hand a second time.....and again that voice

Oh yeah! as it is written!......knock and the Door will open
and they will let you in!

But won't they look you over?......as they did Me
and won't they throw you out????......as they did Me

and then you will deal with Me!!!
traitor......


just and idea I've been living with for a long time

No person knows their end and it is not something I dwell upon. Life is given to do as good as we can and leave our end up to God, who knows what it will be. Trust is the key here.

The Resurection of Christ contains much spiritual significance that leads us to the last days and the 'New Name' promissed by Christ.

Luckily we now have that name and it is Baha'u'llah, who has given much information on what is the resurection and what it is to be born again and what we have been covernanted by God to consider.

We are told;

“32: O SON OF THE SUPREME! I have made death a messenger of joy to thee. Wherefore dost thou grieve? I made the light to shed on thee its splendor. Why dost thou veil thyself therefrom".

It is all in our hands, our free will. We are asked to be just and wise in our choices.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Are you talking about the t-rex they've found in Montana said to be 70 millions years of age? How they figured out the age? Soft tissues are datable with 14C dating method. A half-life of Carbon is 5730 years.

With these passages I like to go to the Aramaic Bible in Plain English, as I see it breaks the original word in to plain English that has not been further interpreted, or written as one thinks it may mean.

John1:1 in plain English says; "In the origin The Word had been existing and That Word had been existing with God and That Word was himself God."

Baha'u'llah has explained this in detail. God is unknowable in Essence, all Gods Messengers are the Word which is shown as the Attributes.

They are One and all, all we can know of God.

But just as the word I speak can not know me, even the Messengers say they do not know God, Christ said why call me good, there is none good but God.

Regards Tony
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
When Matthew mentioned the Magi, he obviously intended Chaldeans to be understood. The Chaldeans were the Babylonians, the grand masters of astronomy/astrology in the ancient world. They would have been familiar with Jewish lore since there was still a large Jewish community in Babylon. It would be obvious to any reasonably knowledgeable person of the 1st century or even later that Matthew’s Magi were intended to be Chaldeans. It is Origen that is ignorant here, not Matthew.

Origen was also ignorant about the different Herod’s. Herod Antipater aka Antipas was a son of Herod the Great. Antipas was the tetrarch who had John the Baptist executed. This was when Jesus was already grown. See Matthew 14:1-12. In Matthew 2 it is Herod the Great who is responsible for trying to kill the infant Jesus. This is clear by Archelaus being called Herod’s son in Matthew 2:22.

Origen is screwed up here, not Celsus. But once again it is plain that Celsus used Matthew as his source.

Huh........ teach your grandmother............... !
;)
 

Neb

Active Member
With these passages I like to go to the Aramaic Bible in Plain English, as I see it breaks the original word in to plain English that has not been further interpreted, or written as one thinks it may mean.

John1:1 in plain English says; "In the origin The Word had been existing and That Word had been existing with God and That Word was himself God."

Baha'u'llah has explained this in detail. God is unknowable in Essence, all Gods Messengers are the Word which is shown as the Attributes.

They are One and all, all we can know of God.

But just as the word I speak can not know me, even the Messengers say they do not know God, Christ said why call me good, there is none good but God.

Regards Tony
In Greek it says: "Jn 1:1 En archë ën ho logos, kai ho logos ën pros ton theon, kai theos ën ho logos."

The word "origin" is not in the bible.

Why you keep on inserting Baha'u'llah in the bible? Baha'u'llah says this, Baha'u'llah says that. Baha'u'llah didn't say anything in the bible, it's only in your mind. Your mind is deceiving you.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
You claimed that the Gospels were changed by Christians after having been written. Which parts were changed, in what way were they changed, and how do you know this? Back up your claim or retract it.

I know the Gospels and their backgrounds cold. I can see why they were written at all, and why they were written the way they were and the interactions between them and with other writings of the era. I do not see that you know very much about them at all, other than what can be found in introductory material about them. As I said earlier it is not necessary to believe that the Gospel stories all happened exactly that way to understand how and why they were put together. In fact, assuming that they are literal history can be an obstacle to understanding.

You boast too much.
Where you are astray is that the Gospels are based upon historical truths, but edited, increased and embellished by evangelical fervour.

You've asked me to justify claims that the gospels have been changed or interfered with, so I'll start with a rough guide.

To start with, if you extract every single reference to a prophecy fulfilled then you won't be going far wrong. If you extract the nativity reports whilst considering individual details and anecdotes as possible (but abused) facts then some of those might have a basis of truth. If you study available historical background alongside of the gospels then this can help. A mindset that only seeks real-life reason for reports that seem like 'miracle' can help towards 'the balance of probabilities'. Where claimed scholars and professors make claims it's wise to research their individual backgrounds, many of which will hold bias and agenda. These are just some tips from a list of many.

Where folks try to tell you that they are educated in this field, and you not, just smile, mumble 'ad hominem' and get ready to show them their errors, that's a bit like you, really. :p
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
The Tyrian shekel and half-shekel stopped being minted around 19 BC. Duplicates were made in secret somewhere in or around Jerusalem until the War. Just how pure and accurate of weight these ‘counterfeits’ really were is a matter of speculation. But tradition is tradition. These coins were common currency in the region. They were also used for the annual Temple Tax, which was separate from purchases made in the Temple both during Festivals and for miscellaneous individual sacrifices throughout the year. (See Luke 2:22-24 for an example) The coins used for both the tax and at the Temple were common currency with the image of the Emperor on them as I previously stated. If they were not common currency, how would the annual Temple Tax get paid? And if they were not common currency, what good would it do the Temple to collect that kind of coin? How would they spend it? Those pilgrims from outside of the general Palestine area might not have that particular type of coin. Remember pilgrims came from all over the Empire and beyond. That is where the moneychangers came in.
You repeat back facts just told to you, yet still get parts wrong, and then you ask questions that seem to be contending with points that I have already explained.
The Australian numismatic society explains the Post Tyre Tyrian shekel, it's features and consistency of weight and silver purity somewhat better than you.
I think you just look this stuff up and repeat parrot it in posts.
The Romans insisted upon their own struck tyrian shekel because it was consistent and they could calculate returns from it. They even took kidney counts of sacrifices for single feasts in order to calculate returns. No doubt there were Roman % returns from the money-changing fees, sacrificial fees, annual fees and other services. The Baptist and Jesus were clearly against the whole money-go-round, the ignored poor-laws, the corruption, greed and hypocrisy of the priesthood and system. Baptism could redeem sinners without the need for any Temple service and the Temple takings must have fallen away quite sharply.

The Tyrian shekel had the Herakles-Melqart Eagle on the reverse. As you said, Melqart is the Baal mentioned in the OT, who had been syncretized with Herakles when the region was Hellenized.
So how do you think that the Jewish people felt about Baal all over their Temple then? The priesthood clearly didn't give a hoot.

A related topic:

In Matthew 17:24-27, there is the discussion of whether to pay the tribute tax. Jesus says that the money for the tribute will be found in the mouth of a fish. The KV translates this as “a piece of money”. The Greek word Matthew uses is staterThis is a silver coin equal in value to a shekel, but is a different coin, of Greek origin.
We occasionally find staters in England which are pure gold.

Q[UOTE]Matthew wrote around 80 AD or so. At that time, the Temple Tax was still being collected from Jews by the Romans but it was not going to the no longer existing Temple. Instead it was war reparations. The tribute was not required to be paid only in Tyrian coins, as the Romans were not interested in tradition but value. Anyway, the Tyrian shekel and half-shekel were no longer being minted anywhere and the Temple treasury was raided by the Romans in 66 AD, a significant factor in starting the War.[/QUOTE]
My interest and studies finish at the disappearance of Jesus, the end of his mission.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
To me, I give more weight to modern psychic and channeling sources than even the Bible. My best synapses from them; Jesus was taken down in a near death state for which many assumed was death. He recovered with his inner powers of healing. For political reasons, he then left Israel and went to the south of France with his wife Mary Magdalene. They had children too.
 

Rough Beast Sloucher

Well-Known Member
It's My Birthday!
To me, I give more weight to modern psychic and channeling sources than even the Bible. My best synapses from them; Jesus was taken down in a near death state for which many assumed was death. He recovered with his inner powers of healing. For political reasons, he then left Israel and went to the south of France with his wife Mary Magdalene. They had children too.

The Gospel according to Dan Brown?
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
How can I reason, i.e., show you proof or evidence, if I can’t argue or convince you of this evidence or proof?

There should be no problem with a reasoned discussion and debate.

What I'm hearing from you is that science isn't relevant because it has been hijacked by atheists. That is not true as many Faith adherents excel in the sciences. I provide evidence where science demonstrates the theories of the YECs are false, and you label the website as 'the pride of joy of atheists'.

In your worldview Faith adherents that are not 'Christian' are deluded and from Satan. You have an 'I'm right and your wrong religion'

There is the negative attribution of malevolent motive to those that think differently from you.

That's not reason and debate. Its religious bigotry and prejudice. That's why I made the comment about arguing.

Your premise, "Resurrection of Christ - What's the evidence for and against a literal resurrection" needs answers and the only place I can get them is from the bible where it literally says, Christ, manifested in the flesh. This is my proposition or argument based on your premise.

Your evidence for Christ being literally resurrected is based on literal interpretation of NT books that are nearly two thousand years old. Some of the authors are unknown, particularly the gospels. The early church ascribed names to the gospels but modern bible scholarship provides compelling evidence that none of the authors of the synoptic were eye witnesses to the events they rose, and that the author of John, probably wasn't the apostle John. You believe differently and that is fine, but there is strong evidence in my favour. Regardless, my views on the resurrection advocate for their profound spiritual (not literal) significance and do not depend on who the authors really were.

Much of the bible is allegorical including the first nine chapters of genesis and parts of the gospels including the resurrection narrative. Many bible scholars agree on this.

The gospels were written to meet the needs of the early Christians and although providing valuable historic information, are primarily theological, not historic accounts of the life and teachings of Jesus.

You have a different perspective and that's fine. The problem with literalism is there are too many contradictions with science and reason for it to be true, and there are much better ways of looking at the bible. My experience is seeing biblical verses through the lens of Baha'u'llah's revelation confirming the foundations of my faith, not weakening it. One does not need to lose their faith in an All-Powerful, Omnipotent God by have a differing perspective. To the contrary biblical literalism and Christian fundamentalism for many is a weak foundation. Faith can be strengthened when confirmed by science and reason. We don't need to have a 'leave your brains outside the church theology' to have the love that comes from a genuine faith.

If you call this an argument between two religions as wrong then, why start an argument? If the word argument has a negative meaning or connotation in your mind then we should consider arguing as a form of a positive conversation between us based on your premise or let’s call it a debate.

I think it is genuinely difficult for you to have a meaningful discussion with other faith adherents. If that's what you want, then I'm happy to talk. If you want to take a blow torch to science and 'non-Christian' religions, then our conversation is likely to lead to more heat than light.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
In Greek it says: "Jn 1:1 En archë ën ho logos, kai ho logos ën pros ton theon, kai theos ën ho logos."

The word "origin" is not in the bible.

Why you keep on inserting Baha'u'llah in the bible? Baha'u'llah says this, Baha'u'llah says that. Baha'u'llah didn't say anything in the bible, it's only in your mind. Your mind is deceiving you.

Baha'u'llah in English means the "Glory of God" or "Glory of the Lord".

Now when you read the Bible you can know when you read the passage that says "the Glory of God came by the way of the Gate (Bab) which faces East", you know it is the Revelations of the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Is Muhammad the word also and all God’s prophets in the bible?

Christ is the first and the last, beginning and the end, alpha and omega, in saying that, Christ confirms he is all the Mesengers, all the Prophets. This is the "I Am", the Holy Spirit that comes each age in a new Name, with a new Jerusalem.

Regards Tony
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Soft tissues are datable with 14C dating method. A half-life of Carbon is 5730 years. If tested with 14C and found out that it was indeed less than 10,000 years then all those millions of years or billions of years would be in question, right?

Although I have a science background, I have not considered chemistry and isotope decay for a very long time.

As far as I know, the carbon-14 isotope decays at a relatively consistent rate. As C-14 is naturally present in organic matter, it can be detected in organic matter such as wood and bones.

The organic matter stops taking up C-14 when it dies. So, given the known rate of decay, the date of death can be estimated based on measuring the current level of C-14 in the sample.

However, the levels of C-14 present in a sample depend on both the levels of C-14 to begin with and the age of the specimen.
 

Rough Beast Sloucher

Well-Known Member
It's My Birthday!
You boast too much.
Where you are astray is that the Gospels are based upon historical truths, but edited, increased and embellished by evangelical fervour.

You've asked me to justify claims that the gospels have been changed or interfered with, so I'll start with a rough guide.

To start with, if you extract every single reference to a prophecy fulfilled then you won't be going far wrong. If you extract the nativity reports whilst considering individual details and anecdotes as possible (but abused) facts then some of those might have a basis of truth. If you study available historical background alongside of the gospels then this can help. A mindset that only seeks real-life reason for reports that seem like 'miracle' can help towards 'the balance of probabilities'. Where claimed scholars and professors make claims it's wise to research their individual backgrounds, many of which will hold bias and agenda. These are just some tips from a list of many.

Where folks try to tell you that they are educated in this field, and you not, just smile, mumble 'ad hominem' and get ready to show them their errors, that's a bit like you, really. :p

The Gospels were each written for a particular purpose. Here is Mark for example.

Paul was of the opinion that the and of time and the return of Jesus were not far off and was expected while many of his readers were still alive. Paul wrote in the 50s AD.

Mark wrote after 70 AD. Jesus had been gone forty years and more. If he did not come back soon, Paul would be proven wrong on this point. Might Paul then be wrong about everything? Mark’s mission was to restore faith in Jesus coming back soon and proving it was all true. Toward this end he has Jesus say “there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power”. (Mark 9:1) In the Olivet Discourse (Mark 13), Mark has Jesus link the beginning of the end with the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem. To Mark’s audience this would have been a recent well-known event. Mark has Jesus describe a series of catastrophic event, culminating in the coming of the Son of Man. He has Jesus say that “Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.” (Mark 13:30)

Mark used Pauline references, scriptural messianic references, some actual history (e.g., John the Baptist), and apparent early traditions about Jesus to build a fast-paced tale about a living breathing man of action. This made the prophecies not just hearsay but something credible that would be snapped up by those who wanted to believe. (Contrary to the opinions of some other, I do not see the Gospels as ‘recruiting tools’ but aimed at the faithful, delivering specific messages to them.

Mark is a fully coherent work (except for the obviously tacked on Mark 16:9-20) whose message is about faith, especially about faith in the return of Jesus that will not be long in coming.

I could do similar analyses about the other Gospels but will leave it at this for now. The point is that each of the Gospels is clearly in or very close to ‘original condition’. This is how they were written. There is no reason to think they were tampered with. None of them can be trusted as a literal account of actual history, although there are undoubtedly real-life events embedded in them.

If you still think the Gospels were tampered with rather than written the way we se them (with minor exceptions), answer the question I keep asking. Point out exactly what you think was changed and what leads you to think it was changed. Be specific.

I do not understand your comment “A mindset that only seeks real-life reason for reports that seem like 'miracle' can help towards 'the balance of probabilities'.“ I never offered any ‘real-life reasons’ for reports of miracles. The miracles are made-up is all. People who say silly things like ‘Jesus could walk on the water because a freak storm created ice’ are IMO totally missing the point. If you want to believe in miracles, go ahead and believe in them. If you do not believe there were miracles involved, why believe any part of the story?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
How do you explain John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


In the beginning was God and the Word was with God. Then when God sent Jesus, Jesus was “manifested” in the flesh, and the Word that was with God became flesh and dwelt among us. That does not mean that God became flesh, but rather that the divine perfections of God were manifested in Jesus who came in the flesh and revealed God to humanity Jesus declared God and made God known, but no man has ever seen God, as the verses below states.

John 1:18 King James Version (KJV)
18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 1:18 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

18 No one has ever seen God. It is God the only Son,a]">[a] who is close to the Father’s heart,b]">[b] who has made him known.

“As it is said in the Gospel of John, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God”; 1 then the Holy Spirit and the Word are the appearance of God. The Spirit and the Word mean the divine perfections that appeared in the Reality of Christ, and these perfections were with God; so the sun manifests all its glory in the mirror. For the Word does not signify the body of Christ, no, but the divine perfections manifested in Him. For Christ was like a clear mirror which was facing the Sun of Reality; and the perfections of the Sun of Reality—that is to say, its light and heat—were visible and apparent in this mirror. If we look into the mirror, we see the sun, and we say, “It is the sun.” Therefore, the Word and the Holy Spirit, which signify the perfections of God, are the divine appearance. This is the meaning of the verse in the Gospel which says: “The Word was with God, and the Word was God”; 2 for the divine perfections are not different from the Essence of Oneness. The perfections of Christ are called the Word because all the beings are in the condition of letters, and one letter has not a complete meaning, while the perfections of Christ have the power of the word because a complete meaning can be inferred from a word. As the Reality of Christ was the manifestation of the divine perfections, therefore, it was like the word. Why? Because He is the sum of perfect meanings. This is why He is called the Word.”
Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, pp. 206-207

From: 54: ON THE PROCEEDING OF THE HUMAN SPIRIT FROM GOD
 

Rough Beast Sloucher

Well-Known Member
It's My Birthday!
You repeat back facts just told to you, yet still get parts wrong, and then you ask questions that seem to be contending with points that I have already explained.
The Australian numismatic society explains the Post Tyre Tyrian shekel, it's features and consistency of weight and silver purity somewhat better than you.
I think you just look this stuff up and repeat parrot it in posts.

Really? Can you find a single source that I ‘parroted from’ concerning the argument that the Tyrian shekel and half-shekel were in common use because it was expected that these coins would be readily available to anyone living in the area and that if it was not commonly used currency, it would do the Temple no good to collect it because what would they then use it for? This is a conclusion based on knowledge present in multiple sources. The coins used for the Temple T and for payments made at the Temple were therefore commonly used coins in the region as I said originally. If you have a problem with that, present specific detailed arguments against it. Referring to the Australian numismatic society does not seem to be relevant than anything. What was the point of that except perhaps some kind of diversion from the topic?

The Romans insisted upon their own struck tyrian shekel because it was consistent and they could calculate returns from it. They even took kidney counts of sacrifices for single feasts in order to calculate returns. No doubt there were Roman % returns from the money-changing fees, sacrificial fees, annual fees and other services. The Baptist and Jesus were clearly against the whole money-go-round, the ignored poor-laws, the corruption, greed and hypocrisy of the priesthood and system. Baptism could redeem sinners without the need for any Temple service and the Temple takings must have fallen away quite sharply.

On the contrary, there were many kinds of official Roman currency but the Tyrian shekel was not one of them. The shekel was minted in Tyre beginning about 300 BC and was popular in the region because of its purity. The Romans shut down the mint so that their ‘official’ currency could be continually debased. See this about the denarius and this about debasement in general. According to that second link “Although the denarius remained the backbone of the Roman economy from its introduction in 211 BC until it ceased to be normally minted in the middle of the third century, the purity and weight of the coin slowly, but inexorably, decreased.”

Jesus was obviously not opposed to the payments to the Temple for sacrificial animals since he willingly participated in the Passover rituals, which included buying a sacrificed lamb.

John the Baptist was not in competition with the Temple. Karbanot is sacrifice, which was performed at the Temple.

“The atoning aspect of Karbanot is carefully circumscribed. For the most part, Karbanot only expiate unintentional sins, that is, sins committed because a person forgot that this thing was a sin. No atonement is needed for violations committed under duress or through lack of knowledge, and for the most part, Karbanot cannot atone for a malicious, deliberate sin. In addition, Karbanot have no expiating effect unless the person making the offering sincerely repents his or her actions before making the offering, and makes restitution to any person who was harmed by the violation.”
Sacrifices and Offerings (Karbanot)

Atonement for deliberate sin did NOT involve sacrifice at the Temple. Or do you think that every time someone sinned they made a pilgrimage to the Temple in Jerusalem to offer a sacrifice?


So how do you think that the Jewish people felt about Baal all over their Temple then? The priesthood clearly didn't give a hoot.

The coin was already in widespread use. And because of its reputation for purity, it was ideal for Temple use. The pagan references were mandated by the Romans. All in all, it was preferable to the frequently debased Roman currency.

“After the Roman Empire closed down the mint in Tyre, the Roman authorities allowed the Jewish rabbanim to continue minting Tyrian shekels in Israel, but with the requirement that the coins should continue to bear the same image and text to avoid objections that the Jews were given autonomy.”
Tyrian shekel - Wikipedia



We occasionally find staters in England which are pure gold.

Interesting. :)

“Celtic tribes brought the concept [staters] to Western and Central Europe after obtaining it while serving as mercenaries in north Greece. Gold staters were minted in Gaul by Gallic chiefs modeled after those of Philip II of Macedonia, which were brought back after serving in his armies, or those of Alexander and his successors. Some of these staters in the form of the Gallo-Belgic series were imported to Britain on a large scale.”
Stater - Wikipedia

Matthew wrote around 80 AD or so. At that time, the Temple Tax was still being collected from Jews by the Romans but it was not going to the no longer existing Temple. Instead it was war reparations. The tribute was not required to be paid only in Tyrian coins, as the Romans were not interested in tradition but value. Anyway, the Tyrian shekel and half-shekel were no longer being minted anywhere and the Temple treasury was raided by the Romans in 66 AD, a significant factor in starting the War.
My interest and studies finish at the disappearance of Jesus, the end of his mission.

The material I presented, including the above quote from me, showed that Matthew wrote well after Jesus went away and addressed concerns of Matthew’s own times.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
No person knows their end and it is not something I dwell upon. Life is given to do as good as we can and leave our end up to God, who knows what it will be. Trust is the key here.

The Resurection of Christ contains much spiritual significance that leads us to the last days and the 'New Name' promissed by Christ.

Luckily we now have that name and it is Baha'u'llah, who has given much information on what is the resurection and what it is to be born again and what we have been covernanted by God to consider.

We are told;

“32: O SON OF THE SUPREME! I have made death a messenger of joy to thee. Wherefore dost thou grieve? I made the light to shed on thee its splendor. Why dost thou veil thyself therefrom".

It is all in our hands, our free will. We are asked to be just and wise in our choices.

Regards Tony
it's easier than some recital you've heard....

you will end up alongside others that think and feel the same way you do

how else to be happy?
how else to be fair?

it's all in your hands
 
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