Resurrection of Christ - What's the evidence for and against a literal resurrection

[David1967]

Yesterday I nearly died. Pillows had fallen onto my face (I was in my mom's bed to make the dogs happy and she loves her some pillows). My mom admits to seeing me suffocate and thought "I must have meant to do it" and walked back out (she didn't mean I meant for suicide, but I meant it for comfort or something). Had it not been for a nightmare of a ghost suffocating me, I would've died in my sleep. Yes, the blind not seeing a problem IS a problem. I'm terrified to sleep now.

Wow, that must be an awful lot of pillows.

 

[David1967]

There are no such accounts in the Bible except for the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man,

There is the account of the witch of Endor raising the spirit of Samuel.

 

[wizanda]

There are the books people write about their visions and momentary glimpses of an afterlife. There are no such accounts in the Bible except for the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, but it is fanciful.

2 Corinthians 12:2 I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I don't know, or whether out of the body, I don't know; God knows), such a one caught up into the third heaven.

Plus many read this as an account of the afterlife.

In my opinion.

 

[oldbadger]

Here is just one source I respect on the subject. It is actually a channeled interview with Jesus Himself. I accept that you will be skeptical of this BUT I and many others had a paranormal prank played on me by the central figure Erik. He was a 20-year old lad that committed suicide in 2009. I truly believe Erik is working from the other side to help the development of his family. He facilitates channeling from people of the past through a living medium. Again I expect you to be skeptical, but aren't there enough beyond the normal stuff out there to not summarily dismiss something new. I am about 98% convinced this interview with Jesus is real.

Jesus Interview

(Quentin Crisp made a cameo appearance at the beginning. The two Yanks had never heard of him though)

Well I never.....
George, I haven't got time to watch the interview now but I've copied the link for tomorrow.

After a very strange experience during which I may have been healed, and having experienced Harry Edwards of Leatherhead, England in 1973 I am open minded about spiritualism in any of it's manifestations.

The people I met at the chapel (where I received healing) want me to attend an introductory group to learn more about mediums, clairvoyance etc.. They tell me I can receive but I can't feel or sense anything.

But ever since the healing experience I've been having vivid dreams, really crazy stuff where I stand on a platform or stage and speak with an audience, but there are unreal p[arts where I'm trying to make tea for them all while we communicate together and keep spilling everything ....... bust china and ripped tea bags. Typical dreamworks.

But at a Spiritualist meeting at Guildford in 1972 a clairvoyant, after telling a colleague he was doing clairvoyance for the wrong reasons and should stop, she pointed across a huge congregation (she was famous) and picked me out, saying that one day I would stand upon a stage just as she was doing, just then. She was so adamant about it all.

But I don't feel anything............ But I can assure you that I don't dismiss people who I trust who talk about these things, and I do know you well from your posts, even though we could sit opposite each other on a coach and never know it.

I'll watch the vid tomorrow.

 

[Subduction Zone]

If you say so.

When you give me something more substantive that what you have offered, I would be happy to address it.

No need. You already ran away. Let's get back to the title of the thread. Do you have any evidence for the resurrection of Jesus? So far no one has found any.

 

[oldbadger]

Yesterday I nearly died. Pillows had fallen onto my face (I was in my mom's bed to make the dogs happy and she loves her some pillows). My mom admits to seeing me suffocate and thought "I must have meant to do it" and walked back out (she didn't mean I meant for suicide, but I meant it for comfort or something). Had it not been for a nightmare of a ghost suffocating me, I would've died in my sleep. Yes, the blind not seeing a problem IS a problem. I'm terrified to sleep now.

Kelly! For real?
What a shocker!
Hope you're OK now.
The ghost is on your side, lady.

 

[George-ananda]

Well I never.....
George, I haven't got time to watch the interview now but I've copied the link for tomorrow.

After a very strange experience during which I may have been healed, and having experienced Harry Edwards of Leatherhead, England in 1973 I am open minded about spiritualism in any of it's manifestations.

The people I met at the chapel (where I received healing) want me to attend an introductory group to learn more about mediums, clairvoyance etc.. They tell me I can receive but I can't feel or sense anything.

But ever since the healing experience I've been having vivid dreams, really crazy stuff where I stand on a platform or stage and speak with an audience, but there are unreal p[arts where I'm trying to make tea for them all while we communicate together and keep spilling everything ....... bust china and ripped tea bags. Typical dreamworks.

But at a Spiritualist meeting at Guildford in 1972 a clairvoyant, after telling a colleague he was doing clairvoyance for the wrong reasons and should stop, she pointed across a huge congregation (she was famous) and picked me out, saying that one day I would stand upon a stage just as she was doing, just then. She was so adamant about it all.


I'll watch the vid tomorrow.

I hope you do watch the video. For me, I also had I believe two paranormal pranks played on me by this Erick. His calling card is pranks much like the ones I experienced.

 

[Kenny]

Yesterday I nearly died. Pillows had fallen onto my face (I was in my mom's bed to make the dogs happy and she loves her some pillows). My mom admits to seeing me suffocate and thought "I must have meant to do it" and walked back out (she didn't mean I meant for suicide, but I meant it for comfort or something). Had it not been for a nightmare of a ghost suffocating me, I would've died in my sleep. Yes, the blind not seeing a problem IS a problem. I'm terrified to sleep now.

.

WOW! So sorry for what you went through. Fear is a terrible thing as it manipulates its host. I pray that you are able to overcome and have a restful sleep.

So thankful that a dream helped you out of it!

 

[Desert Snake]

No reliable evidence for the resurrection that I know of. Since it has never been observed and other gods and demigods claim some sort of resurrection it is not very believable either.

Real Christians rely on spiritual faith and religious evidence from, for the ressurection of Jesus. The historical evidence is supplementary, only.

☆

Other gods aren't real, bad comparison.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Real Christians rely on spiritual faith and religious evidence from, for the ressurection of Jesus. The historical evidence is supplementary, only.

☆

Other gods aren't real, bad comparison.

All you have is faith. The "historical evidence" is almost non-existent. And no, your god is no more real than any other god that is not supported by evidence. You do realize that there are countless different versions of the Christian "God", don't you? That is why there are thousands upon thousands of Christian sects.

 

[Brickjectivity]

There is the account of the witch of Endor raising the spirit of Samuel.

Good memory! I'd fear to debate you, David.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Good memory! I'd fear to debate you, David.

Your kitty cat avatar is too cute for words.

 

[Grandliseur]

There is no evidence that Peter, James, or Jude were actually written by those individuals... in fact there's considerable evidence to the contrary. As for Paul, calling someone's hallucination an 'eyewitness account' is rather ridiculous.

Then the exchange is at an end. You believe as you claim here, and I believe as I stated. End of story.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Your kitty cat avatar is too cute for words.

It softens my opponents. They can't help themselves!

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Wow, that must be an awful lot of pillows.

I'm more of a minimalist in my bedding preferences.

The ghost is on your side, lady.

Didn't feel like it at the time.

So thankful that a dream helped you out of it!

God looks out for me. I am a dreamer of dreams.

And as a follow-up to my idea that we could be seeing "resurrections" from people who were just misdiagnosed as dead, here's a RECENT story:

Man Wakes Up In Morgue After Being Declared Dead By Three Separate Doctors

We can't even prove death 100% NOW.

 

[Dawnofhope]

We were attaching bells with string to corpses not too long ago in case they woke up in the coffins. It's not too hard to imagine a religion developed around a weird medical quirk. While I loathe John with every fiber of my being, he's the only one to include details that makes me think the Romans pierced his side and relieved some sort of fluid buildup. Three days later, he was fine.

I believe the death and resurrection to be distractions to the Way. Romans lined entire roads with crosses and people wake up from death every day ... in hospitals or elsewhere.

I think the details in John regarding the fluid build up of water and blood are interesting and worth considering further.

When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.
For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.

John 19:30-36

If the story were to be taken literally, then why would Jesus have fluid and blood in his abdominal cavity. I would speculate He would have had significant internal injuries, as a result of how he was treated (and beaten) prior to being crucified or part of rough handling nailing Him to the cross. That would account for His relatively quick death. I don't believe He could have recovered from such injuries to be alive again 3 days later.

I don't believe Jesus coming back from the dead is plausible at all, even accounting for an Omnipotent, All-Powerful God. Jesus ascending into heaven (the stratosphere) may be a narrative that worked two thousand years ago when it was believed heaven was in the sky and hell below the earth, but unfortunately has no plausibility today.

I think the post resurrection stories in the gospels were told through oral traditions and written down to convey spiritual truths rather than historic fact.

 

[Dawnofhope]

In my view, one must also remember that Paul isn't the only one that wrote words of a resurrection. Evidence is there. As with many things, it is the interpretation thereof that differs.

It is not uncommon for one person to hold fast to the position that "there was a resurrection" and everyone else is wrong as there are people that say "there is no evidence" and everyone else is wrong.

What amazes me most is that history is largely silent in regards to anything to do with Christianity during the first century AD. Other than Josephus and Tacitus we don't have too much to go on, other than the books of the NT and a few works that didn't make the grade. That is why I posted in the scripture section of debates.

So in Matthew 27:50 - 54 it is written:

Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

You don't find it just a little odd that with all these dead people literally arising from their graves, the temple veil being torn, and the earthquake that none of it made the news?

Again, interpretation.

We do know that he was a persecutor of The Church and something happened that made him a preacher of the resurrection.

Barnabas said that Paul saw him; "Acts 9:27 But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus.

Paul said Jesus stood by him: Acts 23:11 And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome.

One can say he was speaking figurativey and say it isn't evidence or one can take him at his word and say he did.

Jesus spoke figuratively. Why not Paul? Why do we need to take Paul's figurative speech literally and somehow consider this more authentic?

 

[Kenny]

I
God looks out for me. I am a dreamer of dreams.

And as a follow-up to my idea that we could be seeing "resurrections" from people who were just misdiagnosed as dead, here's a RECENT story:

Man Wakes Up In Morgue After Being Declared Dead By Three Separate Doctors

We can't even prove death 100% NOW.

This is so true. They actually knew this way back when and placed a bell next to a buried coffin as well as had a "wake". In case they "woke" up. If they were buried, the would be able to ring the bell because of a rope fastened to it.

Buried Alive: 19th-Century Safety Coffins - Dr Lindsey Fitzharris

However, when a spear is thrust into the side of a person (like Jesus) and the blood has already separated into serum and cells, one can be sure he is dead.

 

[Kenny]

What amazes me most is that history is largely silent in regards to anything to do with Christianity during the first century AD. Other than Josephus and Tacitus we don't have too much to go on, other than the books of the NT and a few works that didn't make the grade. That is why I posted in the scripture section of debates.

So in Matthew 27:50 - 54 it is written:

Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

You don't find it just a little odd that with all these dead people literally arising from their graves, the temple veil being torn, and the earthquake that none of it made the news?

Not really. I find it quite normal since there wasn't "news" in those days. It wasn't like there was a printing press or the phone cameras on record.

If there was an earthquake, one would simple relegate it to "well, it was an earthquake". Even today many people will relegate a miracle to "there is a logical explanation".

We also understand that the Romans weren't exactly noting every religious affair into their history or every miraculous claim. They controlled most of the world at that time and I'm sure that Jerusalem wasn't on the top of their list of record keeping.

Perhaps the reality that Christianity grew so fast was a Testament in and of itself because of all the resurrected people that made people open to the Gospel.

We can only speculate but I don't it weird that there wasn't "news".

Jesus spoke figuratively. Why not Paul? Why do we need to take Paul's figurative speech literally and somehow consider this more authentic?

Jesus also spoke literally.

I think it is pretty clear when it was literal and when it wasn't. "parable" is a good word to understand it was figuratively. "And he took up his bed and walked" is pretty good literal statement.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Not really. I find it quite normal since there wasn't "news" in those days. It wasn't like there was a printing press or the phone cameras on record.

If there was an earthquake, one would simple relegate it to "well, it was an earthquake". Even today many people will relegate a miracle to "there is a logical explanation".

We also understand that the Romans weren't exactly noting every religious affair into their history or every miraculous claim. They controlled most of the world at that time and I'm sure that Jerusalem wasn't on the top of their list of record keeping.

Perhaps the reality that Christianity grew so fast was a Testament in and of itself because of all the resurrected people that made people open to the Gospel.

We can only speculate but I don't it weird that there wasn't "news".

Of course by saying making the news, I mean being recorded in history.

Earthquakes, depending on the magnitude, not necessarily recorded as you say. I personally see that it was more likely an earthquake in that the foundation of Jewish belief that was shaken, but it could be both literal and figurative. All those dead people rising from their graves....sounds figurative doesn't it? Through Jesus the blind can see, the mute can speak, and lame can walk, and the dead can live. Not only can they live, but live eternally. If it was literal it makes little sense, and history is silent about an extraordinarily unusual event of epic proportions.

Jesus also spoke literally.

I think it is pretty clear when it was literal and when it wasn't. "parable" is a good word to understand it was figuratively. "And he took up his bed and walked" is pretty good literal statement.

I suppose that's how the Jews felt about many of the prophecies that Jesus fulfilled figuratively, such as Jesus in regards Davidic Kingship. He was a spiritual not a worldly King.

Once again, the problem is when we insist the allegorical to be literal and the literal allegorical. It is when humanity clings stubbornly to old ways and is unable to embrace the new, or religious adherents fail to see with their own eyes but through the eyes of others.The word that comes to mind is discernment.

So other than an empty tomb (which isn't a proof of a resurrection) do you have any more 'evidence'?