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Resurrection of Christ - What's the evidence for and against a literal resurrection
- Thread starter Dawnofhope
- Start date
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Christians all have their excuses, but they won't work with God... God knows what nobody else knows about what you are thinking and why... I cannot say what that is because only God knows that... I would keep in mind that God knows more than you do and has more power. This has certain implications.
“Consider, moreover, how frequently doth man become forgetful of his own self, whilst God remaineth, through His all-encompassing knowledge, aware of His creature, and continueth to shed upon him the manifest radiance of His glory. It is evident, therefore, that, in such circumstances, He is closer to him than his own self. He will, indeed, so remain for ever, for, whereas the one true God knoweth all things, perceiveth all things, and comprehendeth all things, mortal man is prone to err, and is ignorant of the mysteries that lie enfolded within him….” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 186
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Same place that Baha'u'llah came from since they are BOTH the same Christ Spirit made manifest on earth.
There is no difference between them except their body and their mission on earth.
"Beware, O believers in the Unity of God, lest ye be tempted to make any distinction between any of the Manifestations of His Cause, or to discriminate against the signs that have accompanied and proclaimed their Revelation. This indeed is the true meaning of Divine Unity, if ye be of them that apprehend and believe this truth. Be ye assured, moreover, that the works and acts of each and every one of these Manifestations of God, nay whatever pertaineth unto them, and whatsoever they may manifest in the future, are all ordained by God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. Whoso maketh the slightest possible difference between their persons, their words, their messages, their acts and manners, hath indeed disbelieved in God, hath repudiated His signs, and betrayed the Cause of His Messengers.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 59-60
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
1 Thessalonians 4:14-17
14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the LORD's word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the LORD, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the LORD himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the LORD in the air.
14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the LORD's word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the LORD, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the LORD himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the LORD in the air.
A different verse? Yeah, verse 14 is a different verse and it goes to verse 15 then 16 then 17. So Paul says "we believe that Jesus rose again..." It goes on to say that Jesus will bring those that have "fallen asleep'' Who would that be that Jesus is bringing and where is he bringing them to? Then it says the "Lord himself will come down from heaven" who is this Lord in the context of these verses? What do you think a first century Christian would make of these writings from Paul? What would you, a 21st century Baha'i make of them? How do you get Baha'u'llah and not Jesus as the one coming back? And no, you can't throw in your usual verses that Baha'is use to show it can't mean Jesus. Just these verses, doesn't it point to Jesus as the one coming back? I'd have to say yes. We can talk about those other verses that Baha'i use to show it is not Jesus coming back later.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
But the other point that Neb is making is "God" can mean different things. How does each religion defines their concept of God? Of course Evangelical/, Catholics, Fundamentalist etc Christians define God completely different than all the other religions. And again, if the Baha'is are correct, all those Christians are wrong... and have been wrong from the beginning. You I think said you agreed with me. Other Baha'is have done that song and dance routine where they say how wonderful Jesus is and how wonderful Christianity and all the religions. No, they are all different. And they all have done good things and some bad. But here we are talking about Christianity. And they are wrong, if they are wrong, because of the teachings found in the NT.Baha'u'llah was in the Arabic Bibles, as Tony said.
They continued in their "wrongness" by interpreting things implied in the NT and the rest of their Bible. Things like the devil and hell... that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are part of a Godhead. But the resurrection is not a misinterpretation. It is directly taught in the NT. Therefore, if the resurrection didn't happen, then the NT is to blame. And how difficult would that be to believe? It was written by fallible men that who knows where they got their information? From second or third hand "eye witnesses"? From past down oral traditions? The Baha'i have already chopped enough holes into Christian beliefs... Why believe any of it? But Baha'is do... the prophesies.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Tell me how you see Jesus coming back in those verses. I do not see Jesus coming back in any of those verses. “God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him” is not saying Jesus is coming back. The coming of the LORD and For the LORD himself will come down does not say anything about Jesus because Jesus is not the LORD.
I was going to try to analyze each verse and say what I think it means but what would be the point? Even if I could parse out a meaning of one verse I still cannot tell you what I think it means because so much of it is nonsensical if interpreted literally - meet the Lord in the air? 16 For the LORD himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first is the only verse that makes sense but that would mean that those who had forgotten about Christ (dead in Christ = lost faith) would be the first to recognize the LORD when He came down from heaven.
It makes no sense if interpreted literally, even if you could figure it out, so I am going to give you my interpretation which is not literal and point to some similar verses and quotes from Baha’u’llah.
Fallen asleep and dead refer to a spiritual state, asleep in Christ, dead in Christ.
Alive and rising do not refer to physically alive or rising from graves; they refer to being spiritually alive and rising from the graves of ignorance of Christ’s teachings.
Please read these verses in context and see how similar what is in the Bible is to what Baha’u’llah wrote.
John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
John 3:5-7 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Where did Jesus EVER talk about rising from the grave? Jesus said to let the dead bury their dead. Being born of the spirit has nothing to do with the body. It means spiritual rebirth, exactly the same thing that Baha’u’llah wrote about. Jesus only ever talked about spiritual rebirth, never about the rebirth of bodies. The Christians just got that all mucked up, mixing spiritual with physical. But Baha’u’llah cleared up the meaning of resurrection and from that it can be understood what alive and dead mean.
Resurrection: resurrection› the act of bringing something that had disappeared or ended back into use or existence.
resurrection Meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary
“It hath been demonstrated and definitely established, through clear evidences, that by “Resurrection” is meant the rise of the Manifestation of God to proclaim His Cause, and by “attainment unto the divine Presence” is meant attainment unto the presence of His Beauty in the person of His Manifestation.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 170
“The Day of God’s Revelation is the Day of the most great Resurrection. We cherish the hope that, quaffing from the choice wine of divine inspiration and the pure waters of heavenly grace, thou mayest attain the station of discovery and witnessing, and behold, both outwardly and inwardly, all that which thou hast mentioned.” The Tabernacle of Unity, pp. 62-63
Note how similar what Baha’u’llah wrote below is to what Jesus said in the verses above:
“Incline your ears to the sweet melody of this Prisoner. Arise, and lift up your voices, that haply they that are fast asleep may be awakened. Say: O ye who are as dead! The Hand of Divine bounty proffereth unto you the Water of Life. Hasten and drink your fill. Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead, shall never live.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213
How can anyone possibly believe this refers to the death of a physical body?
That verse refers to the hour when Baha’u’llah will come to resurrect the religion of God.
“Say: The heavens have been folded together, and the earth is held within His grasp, and the corrupt doers have been held by their forelock, and still they understand not. They drink of the tainted water, and know it not. Say: The shout hath been raised, and the people have come forth from their graves, and arising, are gazing around them. Some have made haste to attain the court of the God of Mercy, others have fallen down on their faces in the fire of Hell, while still others are lost in bewilderment. The verses of God have been revealed, and yet they have turned away from them. His proof hath been manifested, and yet they are unaware of it. And when they behold the face of the All-Merciful, their own faces are saddened, while they are disporting themselves. They hasten forward to Hell Fire, and mistake it for light. Far from God be what they fondly imagine! Say: Whether ye rejoice or whether ye burst for fury, the heavens are cleft asunder, and God hath come down, invested with radiant sovereignty. All created things are heard exclaiming: “The Kingdom is God’s, the Almighty, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.”” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 41-42
“He is indeed as one dead who, at the wondrous dawn of this Revelation, hath failed to be quickened by its soul-stirring breeze. He is indeed a captive who hath not recognized the Supreme Redeemer, but hath suffered his soul to be bound, distressed and helpless, in the fetters of his desires.
O My servants! Whoso hath tasted of this Fountain hath attained unto everlasting Life, and whoso hath refused to drink therefrom is even as the dead. Say: O ye workers of iniquity! Covetousness hath hindered you from giving a hearing ear unto the sweet voice of Him Who is the All-Sufficing. Wash it away from your hearts, that His Divine secret may be made known unto you. Behold Him manifest and resplendent as the sun in all its glory.”Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 169
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
You are essentially correct. Christians are wrong because if the teachings in the NT, how they interpret them literally. I do not care if they were meant to be literal or not. That is a red herring. These things either happened of they did not happen in a literal sense. If they did not then Christians are living a delusion.
I do not care what other Baha'is say about Christianity. Don't count me in as saying it is correct. I already posted to you what George Townshend wrote about The False Prophets being the church. That is my stand.
Why do you confuse the prophecies with the resurrection and ascension stories. Prophecies are not stories. They were given so people could recognize the return of Christ.
This is your god, "the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving".
"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled in them that perish:" 2Corinthians 4:3
"in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them." 2Corinthians 4:4
And this was my response to that post: Exactly! In English bahaulla translates into the “glory of God”, there is NO argument there, but it does NOT mean the word “God” or “allah” in bahaulla is the same as the "TRUE GOD" of the Bible, like Elohim, Jehovah, or Yahweh, right? The God of the Bible and allah are NOT the same God. This is your god, "the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving".Baha'u'llah was in the Arabic Bibles, as Tony said.
"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled in them that perish:" 2Corinthians 4:3
"in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them." 2Corinthians 4:4
1 Thessalonians 4:14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
Who did Peter say Jesus was? Christ!
Jesus rose as the Christ. The Spirit gives life, the flesh amounts to nothing.
Regards Tony
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
They are the same, only rendered differently because of the Hebrew versus the Arabic. "Eloheim" and "Allah" are from the Sumerian root word for one of their gods, "El". Thus theologians often refer to these as being of the "El Tradition".
The Qu'ran uses many references to God as depicted in both the Old and New Testaments, as well as references to Jesus and Mary.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Let's try this again...
1 Thessalonians 4:14-17
14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the LORD's word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the LORD, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the LORD himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the LORD in the air.
A different verse? Yeah, verse 14 is a different verse and it goes to verse 15 then 16 then 17. So Paul says "we believe that Jesus rose again..." It goes on to say that Jesus will bring those that have "fallen asleep'' Who would that be that Jesus is bringing and where is he bringing them to? Then it says the "Lord himself will come down from heaven" who is this Lord in the context of these verses? What do you think a first century Christian would make of these writings from Paul? What would you, a 21st century Baha'i make of them? How do you get Baha'u'llah and not Jesus as the one coming back? And no, you can't throw in your usual verses that Baha'is use to show it can't mean Jesus. Just these verses, doesn't it point to Jesus as the one coming back? I'd have to say yes. We can talk about those other verses that Baha'i use to show it is not Jesus coming back later.
So Jesus died and rose again. To a Christian that means Jesus came back to life. If you don't believe that, then you are saying Paul misled Christians. Paul then says Jesus will bring those that have "fallen asleep". To a Christian that means those Christians that have died. Again, if that's not the case then Paul misled them. Then he says the Lord himself will come down from heaven. In context Jesus is the Lord that is coming back, and he those Christians that have died will rise first, and then those that are still alive will rise. So no, "fallen asleep" doesn't mean they were spiritually dead.
I asked you not to thrown in your usual Baha'i "spiritual" or "symbolic" interpretation yet. But you did. For 2000 years all Christians had to go by was their Bible. The verses clearly imply that it is Jesus coming back. In questions regarding what type of body they will have when they resurrect Paul says it is a "glorified" body. But since the body of Jesus had flesh and bone, but could also appear and disappear, that is what they expected to get. With only their version of the Bible to go by, how could they be wrong? Why would they have interpreted it any other way?
So we have several verses in Genesis that are wrong. They claim Isaac was taken to be sacrificed. Several verses in each gospel that tells a story about a resurrected Jesus appearing... wrong. Now we have Paul telling Christians that Jesus, the Lord, will come back and you can't see it? So that means Baha'is think Paul is wrong also? So don't tell me anything about "progressive" revelation. Baha'is don't believe in any of the other religions as taught and believed by their followers today... Not Christians, not Jews, no Muslims, not Hindus, not Buddhist and all the rest.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
I said... If the Baha'is are correct, then Christian Scripture has errors and misleading statements and Christians have been wrong from the beginning on how they interpreted it. I thought you did agree that it is wrong? And I said that if they are wrong, it's because of the teachings found in the NT. That's where anything misleading starts from. So where is your "red herring" You say if it's "literal or not"?
Let me go through this again for you. Christians continued in their "wrongness" by interpreting things implied in the NT and the rest of their Bible. Things like the devil and hell... that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are part of a Godhead.
But, this is the important part, the resurrection is not a misinterpretation. It is directly taught in the NT as something that actually took place. Therefore, if the resurrection didn't happen, then the NT is to blame for misleading the Christians.
So now apart from what Baha'is try to say about the NT and Christianity... What if it is a made up? What if it is just embellished stories based on myths and legends? Myths of dying and rising Gods and God/men? Stories of miraculous things like walking on water and raising the dead? And how difficult would that be to believe? Jesus didn't write it. It was written by fallible men? Can we trust what they said? No, not if you are a Baha'i. You only trust in what your leaders have said is true about the Bible. The rest is questionable.
So why do Baha'is believe in the prophesies? You say "prophecies aren't stories"? But they were written by the same type of men that made wrote the rest of the NT. But there's other problems with "prophecies". Like so many people in other religions, Baha'is pick and choose which prophecies to believe in. They take parts of verses and chapters to make their prophecies. They change interpretations to point to their prophet. For Christians the "Lamb of God" is Jesus. The "Lion of Judah" is Jesus. The "Christ" or "Messiah" is Jesus. For Baha'is none of these things can be, so they reinterpret them to "prove" they refer to Baha'u'llah.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Who does it say is coming back in those verses? And what is the context of your verse: "The Spirit gives life, the flesh amounts to nothing"?
The context is John 6:62“What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? 63“It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64“But there are some of you who do not believe.”
To me this says that when we believe that Christ was Spirit before Jesus was born in the Flesh, then that is how we know God brings back Christ again in the same way, In the Flesh of another Messenger with a New Name.
At this time God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. Jesus says this as in Matthew 20:16 "So the last will be first, and the first will be last." A resurrection one could say of the first believers in Christ.
How is it that I that had no Faith and Found Christ in Baha'u'llah, now confesses to all Christians of Christ and that Christ has returned and yet they do not accept? Those Last and asleep awake to be first and those that think they are first, become last and do not believe.
The context that what I speak is of God is in 1 Corinthians 12:3 "Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
Jesus is Lord CG, the Christ Spirit within him is the Holy Spirit to which Christ was to Build His Church Upon. This is why Muhammad was needed, to warn that false doctrine had already permeated the minds of man and that the veils had been drawn. Those that think Flesh is important, will be veiled from seeing the One God in all Faiths.
Regards Tony
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe evolution has no observable evidence either an lacks a record of any kind.
Muffled
Jesus in me
If credibility is the question the what purpose would there be in making it up?
I believe I have a reason because the Holy Spirit affirms it and did so with Paul as well.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Then you are demonstrably wrong. Odds are that you do not even understand the concept of evidence. Let's discuss what is and what is not evidence first, then we can move on from there.
What's the purpose of creating any religious, political, social or revolutionary movement? For good or ill, out of conviction based on either truth or delusion, they believe they have something that will alter the world and their place in it.
I will say that Brahman affirms my beliefs and the written experience of Upanisadic seers affirms it as well.