Resurrection of Christ

[redwine]

There is no hard evidence that Jesus ever existed, and certainly none that he rose from the dead.

That's quite alright, you are entitled to an opinion. Curly is the best stooge, by far. :slap:

 

[GreenKepi]

There is no hard evidence that Jesus ever existed, and certainly none that he rose from the dead.

What's some "hard evidence" you can give that Julius Caesar ever existed?

 

[kmkemp]

As far as people that lived 2,000 years ago lived, you would be hard pressed to find hard evidence for the existence of anyone that wasn't a king or on a similar level. The historical Jesus was only a revolutionary that was executed to avoid an uprising (surprisingly having the opposite effect). One amongst countless others.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

As far as people that lived 2,000 years ago lived, you would be hard pressed to find hard evidence for the existence of anyone

That's quite right, and it also depends on how much evidence you need and how you treat it. 26+ documents dedicated to the memory of Jesus and his followers is much more evidence that we have of the existence of many ancient people. We have thousands of monuments from the ancient world where only a name is preserved, but in many cases archaeologists can piece together entire families from the names and even reconstruct many careers.

 

[Muffled]

It is nice to see this thread subject resurrected albeit the body of responders may be different.

"Spiritual body" is an oxymoron. A body is physical by definition.

I think Paul is having trouble describing the new body of Jesus but then who could? Be it as it may, it is possible that the new body is spirit controlled instead of mind controlled. It would take a shift away from the carnal mind to the spiritual mind to prepare us for eternal life.

Jesus is God in the flesh. It is God who is in believers as the Holy Spirit which is in Jesus at the same time because God is omnipresent. Otherwise only one believer could have the Holy Spirit at a time. Woe unto us if that were the case, lols.

 

[logician]

That's quite right, and it also depends on how much evidence you need and how you treat it. 26+ documents dedicated to the memory of Jesus and his followers is much more evidence that we have of the existence of many ancient people. We have thousands of monuments from the ancient world where only a name is preserved, but in many cases archaeologists can piece together entire families from the names and even reconstruct many careers.

Except these are works of fiction by unknown authors in most cases. There is not one historian contemporary to the time of the supposed CHrist that ever heard of such a man, except for a couple of passagesby Josephus(written later) that are considered to be forgeries. Julius Caesar, on the other hand, had much history written about him.

 

[kmkemp]

Except these are works of fiction by unknown authors in most cases. There is not one historian contemporary to the time of the supposed CHrist that ever heard of such a man, except for a couple of passagesby Josephus(written later) that are considered to be forgeries. Julius Caesar, on the other hand, had much history written about him.

What was Luke's profession?

 

[logician]

What was Luke's profession?

Mythical writer.

 

[Random]

"Spiritual body" is an oxymoron. A body is physical by definition.

Not so. You'll find certain sects of Christians acknowlege an Etheric "body", an Astral "body"...

Bodies are vehicles for souls. Why can there not be many different types?

 

[kmkemp]

Mythical writer.

Dare I ask for evidence?

 

[Katzpur]

"Spiritual body" is an oxymoron. A body is physical by definition.

I disagree. 1 Corinthians 15:42-44 speaks of the resurrected body as a spiritual body. "It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

Jesus is God in the flesh. It is God who is in believers as the Holy Spirit which is in Jesus at the same time because God is omnipresent. Otherwise only one believer could have the Holy Spirit at a time. Woe unto us if that were the case, lols.

I'm confused by that. If God is omnipresent, and Jesus is not omnipresent, how can Jesus be God?

 

[Muffled]

Not so. You'll find certain sects of Christians acknowlege an Etheric "body", an Astral "body"...

Bodies are vehicles for souls. Why can there not be many different types?

Those aren't real bodies but are images of a body. The resurrected body of Jesus is real enough to be touched and eat food. An etheric or astral body couldn't do that.

 

[Muffled]

I disagree. 1 Corinthians 15:42-44 speaks of the resurrected body as a spiritual body. "It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

I'm confused by that. If God is omnipresent, and Jesus is not omnipresent, how can Jesus be God?

If you disagree with what I said then you should be able to present reasons why you disagree.

Jesus is omnipresent. It is His body which is not. God is not divided. He exists within the body and outside the body as one.

Joh 1:48Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
Joh 1:49Nathanael answered him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art King of Israel.

 

[EtuMalku]

Jesus already died (sort of speak) in Egypt . . . Rev 11:8

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Abdu'l Baha explains it in Some Answered Questions, p. 99-102

The resurrections of the Divine Manifestations are not of the body. All Their states, Their conditions, Their acts, the things They have established, Their teachings, Their expressions, Their parables and Their instructions have a spiritual and divine signification, and have no connection with material things. For example, there is the subject of Christ's coming from heaven: it is clearly stated in many places in the Gospel that the Son of man came from heaven, He is in heaven, and He will go to heaven. So in chapter 6, verse 38, of the Gospel of John it is written: "For I came down from heaven"; and also in verse 42 we find: "And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?" Also in John, chapter 3, verse 13: "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."
3Observe that it is said, "The Son of man is in heaven," while at that time Christ was on earth. Notice also that it is said that Christ came from heaven, though He came from the womb of Mary, and His body was born of Mary. It is clear, then, that when it is said that the Son of man is come from heaven, this has not an outward but an inward signification; it is a spiritual, not a material, fact. The meaning is that though, apparently, Christ was born from the womb of Mary, in reality He came from heaven, from the center of the Sun of Reality, from the Divine World, and the Spiritual Kingdom. And as it has become evident that Christ came from the spiritual heaven of the Divine Kingdom, therefore, His disappearance under the earth for three days has an inner signification and is not an outward fact. In the same way, His resurrection from the interior of the earth is also symbolical; it is a spiritual and divine fact, and not material; and likewise His ascension to heaven is a spiritual and not material ascension.
4Beside these explanations, it has been established and proved by science that the visible heaven is a limitless area, void and empty, where innumerable stars and planets revolve.
5Therefore, we say that the meaning of Christ's resurrection is as follows: the disciples were troubled and agitated after the martyrdom of Christ. The Reality of Christ, which signifies His teachings, His bounties, His perfections and His spiritual power, was hidden and concealed for two or three days after His martyrdom, and was not resplendent and manifest. No, rather it was lost, for the believers were few in number and were troubled and agitated. The Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body; and when after three days the disciples became assured and steadfast, and began to serve the Cause of Christ, and resolved to spread the divine teachings, putting His counsels into practice, and arising to serve Him, the Reality of Christ became resplendent and His bounty appeared; His religion found life; His teachings and His admonitions became evident and visible. In other words, the Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body until the life and the bounty of the Holy Spirit surrounded it.
6Such is the meaning of the resurrection of Christ, and this was a true resurrection. But as the clergy have neither understood the meaning of the Gospels nor comprehended the symbols, therefore, it has been said that religion is in contradiction to science, and science in opposition to religion, as, for example, this subject of the ascension of Christ with an elemental body to the visible heaven is contrary to the science of mathematics. But when the truth of this subject becomes clear, and the symbol is explained, science in no way contradicts it; but, on the contrary, science and the intelligence affirm it.

Is this a tenet of Bahai faith?

 

[Katzpur]

If you disagree with what I said then you should be able to present reasons why you disagree.

Uh... I did. You said that the phrase "spiritual body" is an oxymoron. I gave you a passage from the Bible that explains that there is such a thing as a spiritual body. Is believing what the Bible says on the subject not a good enough reason?

Jesus is omnipresent. It is His body which is not. God is not divided. He exists within the body and outside the body as one.

Could you explain that further, please? I would go along with the idea that God is not divided, but as I understand it, it is through the Holy Ghost that God is in us. I've always thought that Jesus Christ himself exists in Heaven as a glorified resurrected being. He had a body of flesh and bones when He appeared to the Apostles on Easter morning. But His spirit had returned to give His body life? If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying something different.

 

[Muffled]

Uh... I did. You said that the phrase "spiritual body" is an oxymoron. I gave you a passage from the Bible that explains that there is such a thing as a spiritual body. Is believing what the Bible says on the subject not a good enough reason?

Could you explain that further, please? I would go along with the idea that God is not divided, but as I understand it, it is through the Holy Ghost that God is in us. I've always thought that Jesus Christ himself exists in Heaven as a glorified resurrected being. He had a body of flesh and bones when He appeared to the Apostles on Easter morning. But His spirit had returned to give His body life? If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying something different.

Please excuse my blythely passing over the scripture. The scripture doesn't change anything. It is just as much an oxymoron in scripture as it would be stated anywhere else.

The spirit of God is in us, in Jesus (in Heaven), and everywhere else. Eph. 4:4 tells us that there is one spirit. The Holy Ghost is just one of several translations for the word Paraclete which is the word for the Spirit of God in us.

 

[Popeyesays]

Is this a tenet of Bahai faith?

It is by Abdu'l Baha, and as such is authoritative.

So, yes.

Regards,

Scott

 

[sandy whitelinger]

It is by Abdu'l Baha, and as such is authoritative.

So, yes.

Regards,

Scott

So how is it that Bahai takes a concept from Christianity and changes it to mean something contrary to what it's source, the Bible, teaches?

 

[Katzpur]

Please excuse my blythely passing over the scripture. The scripture doesn't change anything. It is just as much an oxymoron in scripture as it would be stated anywhere else.

No problem. I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree then, if we can't trust a straightforward scriptural statement that "there is a spiritual body." On the other hand, we could explore the idea that maybe the scripture is right, and that you are interpreting it incorrectly.

The spirit of God is in us, in Jesus (in Heaven), and everywhere else. Eph. 4:4 tells us that there is one spirit. The Holy Ghost is just one of several translations for the word Paraclete which is the word for the Spirit of God in us.

I agree with you on that. Maybe I just don't understand what you're getting at. To me, the passage in 1 Corinthians 15 ("there is a spiritual body") is referring to the spirit (or soul, if you prefer) of man as being eternal. The natural body is the physical body that is subject to disease, death, and decay. The spiritual body is the resurrected physical body, which is reunited with the eternal spirit. The Greek word, "pneuma," which is often translated in the scriptures as "spirit" also means "life." Since a person's spirit (not the Holy Spirit or Spirit of God) is what gives life to the body, I don't see the phrase "spiritual body" to be an oxymoron at all.