resurrection

[James Humphreys]

And what about the second instance as recorded in Luke 9: 28, where Peter and his companions were on the mountain in a deep sleep and waking from that deep sleep their minds still clouded and while struggling to focus their minds and their eyes, saw the face of Jesus (As with the face of Moses) change its appearence and his clothes became dazzling white etc? Later, from the cloud that overshadowed them, they heard a voice say, "This is my son, whom I have chosen---listen to him." The two men that they had seen talking with Jesus disappeared with the cloud that had overshadowed them.

I believe that in this case the spirits of Elijah and Moses were actually present, and were speaking to Jesus. The disciples also Jesus in his spiritual state. While Moses and Elijah were great prophets, Jesus as the Son of God, and being completely one with God, shone with a bright light. That is the light radiated from his own spiritual self. Moses and Elijah were not at the same level. That is one reason why, in reference to Moses' face shining upon coming down from the mountain at the time of the Exodus, I feel it is more likely that this was more like the reflected light of God's glory, rather than representing the brightness of Moses' own spirit.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Dirty Penguin
That's interesting, but then we are at something of a loss to explain how the Christian movement ever started. That is, if we assume for the moment like some of the scholars, that what Jesus taught did not regard himself (ie. maybe he taught his own brand of Jewish eschatology, or a Jewish stoic moralism, but certainly not Christology), then how do we get this movement from Jesus the prophet/ Jesus the teacher, to a religious movement convinced that this person had fulfilled the history of Israel in his death and resurrection?

Propaganda....but that's just my own opinion.....:cover:....and what better source than you own Paul....but again...Paul and how christianity spread is not in question.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I already answered that question in this thread he it is again:

When Iesos Christos (Jesus the Christ) was killed his body died literally. His spirit did not cease to exist because His spirit is part of the Divine GOD. When He was ressurected physically he was given a new body even though He was ressurected into the remains of the same body. He resurrected physically because GOD's entire plan and purpose for humanity is to ultimately resurrect HIS Elect physically and spiritually into HIS Divine Family. The physical ressurection of Christ was given by GOD to mankind of HIS ultimate ability and faithfulness that HE can and will do what HE has promised to mankind. When Christ was resurrected humanity was given a physical record of the true ressurection of a human being in exact accordance with the fulfillment of biblical prophecy regarding the Messiah and ressurections. For those Apostles and disciples who were able to see Him, they were given an incredible assurance that GOD will do exactly as HE promised- An actual physical ressurrection of the mass of humanity will occur prior to the fulfillment of GODs plan and purpose to and for humanity. The first of these ressurrections will occur for the elect, then for the mass of humanity, and finally for the wicked dead who will then face destruction.

I'm sorry but this is pure imagination and speculation. The account does not reveal that kind of information.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Berachiah,
Why are you so rude? It's not very appealing...

The Gospel of John indeed records that the beloved disciple stood by the cross of Christ.

Do you have that chapter and verse?

EDIT: NEVERMIND.....I found it...

 

[S-word]

Do you have that chapter and verse?

Well if he dont, I do, John 19: 25 to and including 27.

 

[S-word]

I believe that in this case the spirits of Elijah and Moses were actually present, and were speaking to Jesus. The disciples also Jesus in his spiritual state. While Moses and Elijah were great prophets, Jesus as the Son of God, and being completely one with God, shone with a bright light. That is the light radiated from his own spiritual self. Moses and Elijah were not at the same level. That is one reason why, in reference to Moses' face shining upon coming down from the mountain at the time of the Exodus, I feel it is more likely that this was more like the reflected light of God's glory, rather than representing the brightness of Moses' own spirit.

You must see it as you choose to see it. John makes no mention of the event in question, while Luke 9: 29, states that while Jesus was praying his face changed its appearence and that it was his clothing that became dazzling white.

Mark 9: 2, states that a change came over Jesus, and his clothes became shinning white-- whiter than anyone in the world could wash them.

Matthew 17: 2, says that the face of Jesus shone like the sun, as did the face of Moses, who, even though it was fading after he had descended the mountain and read the law to the Israelites, it was nonetheless still to bright for the people to bear, and he had to wear a veil for their sake: and Matthew goes to say that his clothes became dazzling white.

Why do you think that Luke would introduce the fact that Peter, James and John were heavy with sleep while Jesus was praying and when Moses and Elijah first appeared? What could have been his reasoning for introducing this apparently useless bit of trivia, that all this had occured while Peter and his companions were heavy with sleep and that, it was as they awoke in the shadow of the cloud, that they saw the vision before it all vanished? Are you so sure that you are not missing something here?

 

[danny vee]

Just to get back to the original point of the thread, I don't personally think that Jesus' physical body was resurrected at all. It was His spirit that was captive in His body during life on Earth that was let free from it's cage with the key of death, and could then take on any form it wanted, anywhere it wanted. Just an opinion but I think that it makes sense. Also with Moses and Jesus clothes going all white and stuff, perhaps it was something God did for the sake of the people and their faith.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings!

Could somebody explain to me why the physical body of Jesus was resurected when it was not nessessary ?

It didn't.

Resurection is a spiritual, not a physical, event!

Peace,

Bruce

 

[James Humphreys]

Why do you think that Luke would introduce the fact that Peter, James and John were heavy with sleep while Jesus was praying and when Moses and Elijah first appeared? What could have been his reasoning for introducing this apparently useless bit of trivia, that all this had occured while Peter and his companions were heavy with sleep and that, it was as they awoke in the shadow of the cloud, that they saw the vision before it all vanished? Are you so sure that you are not missing something here?

I'm not sure why Luke mentioned the point of their sleepiness. It does though bring to mind the Garden of Gethsemane, when the three disciples fell asleep while Jesus was praying desperately. Perhaps you could state more clearly what you think the meaning is. I get the feeling that you may be implying that because the disciples were very sleepy, and perhaps not fully awake, they imagined they saw something, but it wasn't really real. None of us were there, and so we have to make our own judgement based on what our hearts and intellects tell us. However, based on the text the disciples believed it was real, and that they had been in the presence of Elijah and Moses. That is why they asked Jesus, then why do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?

 

[S-word]

Quote....James Humphreys.
I get the feeling that you may be implying that because the disciples were very sleepy, and perhaps not fully awake, they imagined they saw something, but it wasn't really real. None of us were there, and so we have to make our own judgement based on what our hearts and intellects tell us. However, based on the text the disciples believed it was real, and that they had been in the presence of Elijah and Moses.

You are correct, you have made your own judgment on what your heart and your intellect has told you, I rely on what the spirit that Jesus sent into the world reveals to me. And of course the disciples did believe that what they had seen was real, Peter even wanted to build three tents, one for Jesus, one for Moses and one for Elijah, But he didn't really know what he was talking about, did he?

Quote....James Humphreys
That is why they asked Jesus, then why do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?

Mark 9: 12, And Jesus answered, "Elijah is indeed coming first in order to get everything ready (Future tense). Yet why do the scriptures say that The Son of Man will suffer much and be rejected? I tell you however, that Elijah has already come and that the people treated him just as the Scriptures say about him." To who are the Scriptures referring , who would suffer much and be rejected?
In John and Jesus, could you be seeing the one spiritual being from two vastly different positions in time, crossing in the the one point in time. John who came in the power of the Spirit of Elijah in ascent, John, the fire and brimstone preaching and condeming spirit of Elijah, the only man to be redeemed from the post flood body of mankind, who Like Enoch from the pre-flood body of man, had ascended into heaven without experiencing death, and Jesus the Son of Man in descent?

Eli the Father and Jah the Son, reveal that Jesus and John are one
John the lesser and Jesus the great,
O, praise the Lord who in parable spake, revelations none could contemplate.
You have closed their eyes that none might see, the wonderful plan revealed to me
You have stopped their ears, and they've never heard, the glorious story told in your word
The door was there, but they could not see, in Scripture where you hid the key
Now the secret's revealed, yet still it's hidden, from those who would turn and be forgiven
In their sins they must die, each and everyone, of those who reject your chosen Son.....By S-word

Malachi 3: 1-2, The Lord answers, "I will send my messenger to prepare the way for me. Then the Lord you are looking for will suddenly come to his Temple. The Messenger you long to see will come and proclaim my covenant." But who will be able to endure the day he comes? Who will be able to survive when he appears? He will be like strong soap, like a fire that refines metal etc.

From the least unto the greatest of they who bear no fruit
The S-word of God has been prepared to cleave them to the root
For Elijah who was carried up to stand by Enoch’s side
Stood by the brook at Kishon where the priests of Baal all died.

It was he who gave the order and the waters all turned red
As fifty and eight hundred more, false prophets all fell dead
Will you fight the war ‘gainst ignorance, the war that will be won
By those who wield the S-word of God, the sharp two edge-ed tongue?........By S-word

For God cursed neither the creation nor mankind, but ignorance and ignorance alone.

 

[James Humphreys]

Mark 9: 12, And Jesus answered, "Elijah is indeed coming first in order to get everything ready (Future tense). Yet why do the scriptures say that The Son of Man will suffer much and be rejected? I tell you however, that Elijah has already come and that the people treated him just as the Scriptures say about him." To who are the Scriptures referring , who would suffer much and be rejected?
In John and Jesus, could you be seeing the one spiritual being from two vastly different positions in time, crossing in the the one point in time. John who came in the power of the Spirit of Elijah in ascent, John, the fire and brimstone preaching and condeming spirit of Elijah, the only man to be redeemed from the post flood body of mankind, who Like Enoch from the pre-flood body of man, had ascended into heaven without experiencing death, and Jesus the Son of Man in descent?

S-word, Elijah, John the Baptist, and their relationship to Jesus is an interesting topic to me, but I think it is getting a little too far off the topic of Jesus' resurrection. Perhaps you might want to consider starting a new thread. I'll be gone for several days to my in-laws in Japan for the New Year's holiday, so I'll check in to see what is simmering on the stove when I get back.

 

[starlite]

While it's true that Matthew 10:33 does speak of being disowned if one denies Jesus Christ:
“Whoever disowns me before men, I will also disown him before my Father who is in the heavens.” Jesus does not disown someone who makes a mistake despite his earnest desire to be faithful. For example, although the apostle Peter denied Jesus three times, Peter repented and was forgiven. (Matthew 26:69-75)

 

[S-word]

Quote James Humphrey’s
S-word, Elijah, John the Baptist, and their relationship to Jesus is an interesting topic to me, but I think it is getting a little too far off the topic of Jesus' resurrection. Perhaps you might want to consider starting a new thread. I'll be gone for several days to my in-laws in Japan for the New Year's holiday, so I'll check in to see what is simmering on the stove when I get back.

Perhaps you might like to take on board the fact that Moses who died at the age of 120, (Genesis 6: 3, My spirit shall not always strive with man-----yet his days shall be an 120 years) even though his eye had not grown dim and he was still capable of siring children, died because God commanded him to.
In the assumption of Moses, he was then taken to heaven to stand on one side of the throne of Godhead, while Elijah who has not yet experienced death was carried up to stand on the other side of Enoch, who is the one man to have been redeemed from the previous world, who was taken to heaven unblemished at the age of 365; there he was stripped of his mortal garment and rubbed with the sweet smelling ointment of God which shone with the brilliance of the sun, where he was placed before the Most High, girded and clothed in fire, to serve God before the body of Adam (Mankind) into all eternity. (Enoch, the anointed one)

Elisha, the successor to Elijah, received his spirit, which later entered into, and rose to life, the body of a dead youth who was thrown onto the dead bones of Elisha, and was Later seen in John the Baptist who lost his head, which was the accusing, fire and brimstone preaching compilation of that enclosure of gathered spirits, which were the same gathering of spirits as was in his cousin Jesus, the descendant of Moses.

For Jesus was the son of Joseph the son of Heli, who is descended from Nathan the son of Uriah and Bathsheba the daughter of Ammiel, the son of Obed-Edom, a descendant of Moses through his second wife, who was the daughter of Hobab the Kenite, one of the two fathers in law of Moses.

When on the mountain with his three disciples, the face of Jesus changed to be seen as Enoch, the Godhead who sits in the throne of the most high in the creation, and who was reborn on earth in the body of his obedient servant Jesus, who he chose as the heir to his throne.

In reference to the triumphant procession of God into the sanctuary of his New Temple which is being built in heaven by the spirits of those who are gathered to Jesus the cornerstone, and will be established on earth as the kingdom of God in which and from within, he will rule the whole world with justice: Psalms 68: 27, "First comes Benjamin, the smallest tribe etc," be sure to read my thread, “Did you know.”

This is taken from the last Testament of Benjamin to his children, “And I believe that there will be evil doings among you, from the words of Enoch the righteous: that ye shall commit fornication with the fornication of Sodom, and ye shall perish all save a few, and shall renew wanton deeds with women; and the kingdom of God shall not be among you, for straight way He shall take it away.

Nevertheless the temple of God shall be in your portion, and the last Temple (The Son of Man) shall be more glorious than the first (Mankind.) And the twelve tribes shall be gathered there, (At the second Temple which is that of Elijah the prophet of fire) and all the Gentiles, until the Most High shall send forth his salvation in an only begotten prophet, (Enoch, the unblemished 365 day old sacrificial lamb of God) And he shall (Descend) and enter the first temple, (The body of Jesus) and there shall the Lord be treated with outrage, and He shall be lifted up upon a tree. And the veil of the Temple (The body of Jesus) shall be rent, and the spirit of God shall pass onto the Gentiles as fire poured forth. And He shall ascend from Hades and shall pass from earth into heaven. And I know how lowly He shall be on earth, and how glorious in heaven.” See ya when ya get back James.

 

[starlite]

Perhaps your are familiar with this verse and that the apostle John is the one being spoken of here....John 19:26,27 (evidently John was present at the time of Jesus' death)
And remember that even Jesus' own mother was a disciple.

26 Therefore Jesus, seeing his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing by, said to his mother: “Woman, see! Your son!” 27 Next he said to the disciple: “See! Your mother!” And from that hour on the disciple took her to his own home.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Well if he dont, I do, John 19: 25 to and including 27.

Yea...I found it but it doesn't say he was a witness to the supposed death of the biblical Yeshua. At best, that I can tell, the beloved disciple was a witness to Yeshua being on the stake but then it says that he took the mother of Yeshua to his own home. Ther'es no mention of him being a witness to the death of Yeshua. The other gospels are silent on the "beloved disciple" being present. The gospel of Mark is regarded as the ealiest of the gospels and Mathew, whom some say copied Mark, is in agreement with Mark. Luke says people were there watching at a distance but doesn't mention names. So from what we can gather, the "beloved disciple" was there, as reported by the writer of the book of John, but left with Mary (Yeshua's mother) before he could even witness the supposed death of Yeshua.

So I stand corrected that, as only reported by a later gospel (John), that a disciple was a witness to the crucifixion.....but he, as we can tell, was not a witness to the death.

 

[S-word]

Yea...I found it but it doesn't say he was a witness to the supposed death of the biblical Yeshua. At best, that I can tell, the beloved disciple was a witness to Yeshua being on the stake but then it says that he took the mother of Yeshua to his own home. Ther'es no mention of him being a witness to the death of Yeshua. The other gospels are silent on the "beloved disciple" being present. The gospel of Mark is regarded as the ealiest of the gospels and Mathew, whom some say copied Mark, is in agreement with Mark. Luke says people were there watching at a distance but doesn't mention names. So from what we can gather, the "beloved disciple" was there, as reported by the writer of the book of John, but left with Mary (Yeshua's mother) before he could even witness the supposed death of Yeshua.

So I stand corrected that, as only reported by a later gospel (John), that a disciple was a witness to the crucifixion.....but he, as we can tell, was not a witness to the death.

I dont know if the beloved disciple left immediatly with Mary the mother of James the younger, who is the full brother to Jesus, because Mary Magdalene, (see Matthew 27: 61, and Matt 28: 1) with the only other Mary who was at the crucifiction, witnessed the burial of Jesus on that day, and were there at the empty tomb on the morning following the nomal Sabbath day as opposed to the great Sabbath of the Passover, when the Sacrifical Lamb of God was slaughtered.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I dont know if the beloved disciple left immediatly with Mary the mother of James the younger, who is the full brother to Jesus, because Mary Magdalene, (see Matthew 27: 61, and Matt 28: 1) with the only other Mary who was at the crucifiction, witnessed the burial of Jesus on that day, and were there at the empty tomb on the morning following the nomal Sabbath day as opposed to the great Sabbath of the Passover, when the Sacrifical Lamb of God was slaughtered.

Ahh....I see what you mean. I had to go back and look at them all again to get a better picture.

Here's the thing. It is still reason to assume, even if the beloved disciple was there, he (may) not have been in a position to determine that the biblical Yeshuas' was dead. From what I can tell there is no information that substantiates he was. Mary (mother of James and Joses) was standing (afar - at a distance). From what I can tell there's no mention as to where the "beloved disciple" was standing. The "beloved disciple", as far as being there, seems to be recorded in the book of john only....... The other books (earlier written scrolls) say nothing of his presence. Now, maybe, after Yeshua's supposed death the "beloved disciple" takes Mary to his home and then over to the tomb but the book of john gives the impression she and the "beloved disciple" left before he was pronounced dead.

 

[S-word]

Ahh....I see what you mean. I had to go back and look at them all again to get a better picture.

Here's the thing. It is still reason to assume, even if the beloved disciple was there, he (may) not have been in a position to determine that the biblical Yeshuas' was dead. From what I can tell there is no information that substantiates he was. Mary (mother of James and Joses) was standing (afar - at a distance). From what I can tell there's no mention as to where the "beloved disciple" was standing. The "beloved disciple", as far as being there, seems to be recorded in the book of john only....... The other books (earlier written scrolls) say nothing of his presence. Now, maybe, after Yeshua's supposed death the "beloved disciple" takes Mary to his home and then over to the tomb but the book of john gives the impression she and the "beloved disciple" left before he was pronounced dead.

If, as believed by the greater majority of christians, that the beloved disciple of Jesus was in fact John the Son of Zebade, who made his living as a fisherman on Lake Galilee, one would imagine that his house would have been in that area, and it would be doubtful that he cauld have taken Mary to his home that day and returned with her in order for Mary to witness the burial of the first of her three biological sons.

 

[Berachiah Ben Yisrael]

If, as believed by the greater majority of christians, that the beloved disciple of Jesus was in fact John the Son of Zebade, who made his living as a fisherman on Lake Galilee, one would imagine that his house would have been in that area, and it would be doubtful that he cauld have taken Mary to his home that day and returned with her in order for Mary to witness the burial of the first of her three biological sons.

Why couldn't the beloved disciple simply be his biological brother?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

If, as believed by the greater majority of christians, that the beloved disciple of Jesus was in fact John the Son of Zebade, who made his living as a fisherman on Lake Galilee, one would imagine that his house would have been in that area, and it would be doubtful that he cauld have taken Mary to his home that day and returned with her in order for Mary to witness the burial of the first of her three biological sons.

Then we are left with a discrepancy. Berachiach Ben Yisrael suggest that this "beloved disciple" could have been the son of Mary (his mother). This is plausible. The brother could have lived by and took the mother to his home to spare her the sight of her other son on the cross. Verse 26 and 27 does seem to be Yeshua saying to his mother that the disciple is her son then he turns to the disciple and says this is your mother then the disciple within the hour, while Yeshua was still alive on the cross, takes his mother to his home and then some time after that Yeshua receives something to drink then he's dead (appeared to be).

We must also realize which book of the NT we're getting this information from. It is the later of the four gospels. It has information in it that was not present in the previous ones. In this one "beloved disciple" is mentioned where as the others are silent on this charachter. The spear poking in Yeshua's side is not mentioned in the others. What has happened is that these "different" versions have been mingled into one story.

It's always been and interesting story to me. My position is far different than others when examining the events. I think, just by observing the text, that the biblical Yeshua was in the crowd of people but they didn't know he was there until he greeted them. They thought they were seeing a spirit because their understanding of resurrection was that it is to be a spiritual event. Yeshua informs them he was no spirit and invites them to feel his hands and his feet to show he was no spirit. This is pretty much what (HE) said. I find it interesting he could conquer death but not hunger. He asks them if there is any food there and they gave him broiled fish and a piece of honeycomb and he ate it. I think the rumors of his death had been exaggerated and since these disciples weren't there they heard the rumors and believed he was.