Rev...unlike USA, all European countries are intrinsically socialist

[Left Coast]

I think that the best definition of Socialism is given by the article 41 of our Constitution.
It's not all either black or white.

Art 41. Private economic enterprise is free. It may not be carried out against the common good or in such a manner that could damage safety, liberty and human dignity. The law shall provide for appropriate programmes and controls so that public and private-sector economic activity may be oriented and co-ordinated for social purposes.

Now you get it?

I got it before. I'm still not sure you do, though.

- In Communism there is no free private enterprise
- In Socialism there is free private enterprise, as long as certain criteria (like those of article 41) are met.

No, I'm sorry, but that's not even what your own sources have explained. But I've said enough about the semantics. I'm glad you are still in support of free enterprise.

 

[Revoltingest]

Read this, then. It's English,

Socialism vs. Communism: How Are They Different?

Find out the difference between communism and socialism, two related but distinct political theories and systems.

www.thoughtco.com

Already familiar.
We're not discussing communism.

 

[Estro Felino]

Already familiar.
We're not discussing communism.

Do you believe they are the same thing?

 

[Revoltingest]

Do you believe they are the same thing?

I've regularly posted definitions of each
to show the differences. Wouldn't this
make your query unnecessary?
This isn't a debate.
It's bickering over definitions.

 

[Estro Felino]

I've regularly posted definitions of each
to show the differences. Wouldn't this
make your query unnecessary?
This isn't a debate.
It's bickering over definitions.

At the very first, this was supposed to be a one-on-one debate. But anyhow...
I still don't understand why you don't consider Scandinavia socialistic.
I am not asking you to acknowledge my country is de jure socialist. But at least that Scandinavian countries all are.

 

[Stevicus]

I would like to know this:
why do Americans tend to think that Socialism = Communism?

They don't, and they never did, as far as I can tell. It's only been within the past couple of years that a few people have been making this kind of argument. It's much the same with the "Hitler was a socialist" nonsense that some people spew. But it's only a few people on the extreme far-right who take such positions.

 

[Estro Felino]

They don't, and they never did, as far as I can tell. It's only been within the past couple of years that a few people have been making this kind of argument. It's much the same with the "Hitler was a socialist" nonsense that some people spew. But it's only a few people on the extreme far-right who take such positions.

But it's true. He was a socialist.
Mussolini was as well.
Why do you think they were not?

 

[Revoltingest]

At the very first, this was supposed to be a one-on-one debate. But anyhow...
I still don't understand why you don't consider Scandinavia socialistic.
I am not asking you to acknowledge my country is de jure socialist. But at least that Scandinavian countries all are.

There's no common ground for debate.
We don't agree on what "socialism" even is.
If you want this to be interesting, it should
be about specific policies...with agreed upon
definitoins.

 

[Estro Felino]

There's no common ground for debate.
We don't agree on what "socialism" even is.
If you want this to be interesting, it should
be about specific policies...with agreed upon
definitoins.

It's all right.

 

[Revoltingest]

It's all right.

It's all left.

 

[Stevicus]

But it's true. He was a socialist.
Mussolini was as well.
Why do you think they were not?

Their policies were designed to keep the working classes in line, which was pleasing to the bourgeois capitalist class. There was still a class-based, quasi-monarchist society. Italy even had a king. I can't believe any self-respecting socialist would ever pay homage to a king.

 

[Estro Felino]

Their policies were designed to keep the working classes in line, which was pleasing to the bourgeois capitalist class. There was still a class-based, quasi-monarchist society. Italy even had a king. I can't believe any self-respecting socialist would ever pay homage to a king.

Fascism expropriated the lands from rich landowners: Lex Serpieri.
It expropriated the banking stakes of Bankitalia which was seized by the State.

Don't you think this is socialism? Considering that the king was irrelevant, as the monarch is in Britain.

 

[metis]

But it's true. He was a socialist.
Mussolini was as well.

No, Mussolini was a fascist pretending to be a socialist to gain popularity:
As dictator of Italy and principal founder of fascism, Mussolini inspired and supported the international spread of fascist movements during the inter-war period.... -- Benito Mussolini - Wikipedia

 

[Estro Felino]

No, Mussolini was a fascist pretending to be a socialist to gain popularity:
As dictator of Italy and principal founder of fascism, Mussolini inspired and supported the international spread of fascist movements during the inter-war period.... -- Benito Mussolini - Wikipedia

At least our Duce was not a Freemason. As FDR was. And that is something relevant.

 

[metis]

At least our Duce was not a Freemason. As FDR was. And that is something relevant.

That's not relevant to this discussion.

 

[Estro Felino]

That's not relevant to this discussion.

It's relevant because Freemasons are anti-socialists, most of the times.

 

[metis]

It's relevant because Freemasons are anti-socialists, most of the times.

So?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

This is a debate between @Revoltingest and me.
Rev...u've always affirmed that Europe is not socialist....even if the inexorable failure of neo-liberism is awakening the ancient socialist spirit that characterized Europe before and after WW2
The Gilets Jaunes...Italian Populism, are all the first sparkles of an inevitable crisis of globalism...and the return to both Nationalism and Socialism

It seems to me that "socialist" in Europe doesn't refer to the same concept as the same word in the US.

European secular democracies tend to be more "socialist" only in the sense that there's more government "imposed" solidarity among citizens.
It has better worker rights (paid leave, sick leave, maternity leave, holidays,... all it is very much law-based).
It has several "solidarity programs" like national health security, welfare for/during unemployment
Free and / or very cheap education (of nevertheless high quality)
Etc.

This has every little to do with socialism in the sense of communism.

 

[Estro Felino]

It seems to me that "socialist" in Europe doesn't refer to the same concept as the same word in the US.

European secular democracies tend to be more "socialist" only in the sense that there's more government "imposed" solidarity among citizens.
It has better worker rights (paid leave, sick leave, maternity leave, holidays,... all it is very much law-based).
It has several "solidarity programs" like national health security, welfare for/during unemployment
Free and / or very cheap education (of nevertheless high quality)
Etc.

This has every little to do with socialism in the sense of communism.

Socialism and Communism are two different things.
If I had used them as synonyms, my history teacher would have failed me.

 

[metis]

This has every little to do with socialism in the sense of communism.

Exactly, as there are many forms of socialism: Socialism - Wikipedia