Revelation 14

[look3467]

I personally believe the book of Revelation to be Highly Symbolic. It is quite possible that John was addressing current issues, perhaps with some prophesy as well.

It is very difficult to understand what these symbols mean because we are so far removed from the time in which they were written.

I believe John's Audience would have understood them very clearly. The Book only became mysterious with the passage of time.

but thats just my opinion.

Yes it is difficult to understand the meanings of all those symbols, for it was intended to be that way so that we should care enough to search it out.

But I am trying to give you all some clues.

This verse gives us a clue:
Gen 41:32 And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass.

This clue indicates that there are 3 pictures seen of the same thing.

Lets take one for instance, Adam.

The first Adam is made flesh and is kept from heaven as dead.
The second Adam is made flesh but with a quickening spirit and brings heaven to earth for mankind.

There you have two pictures of the same flesh, and yet the third Adam is the new creature.

The first man Adam doubled, God brought it to pass to where all mankind now has excess to heaven.

The book of Revelation gives us 3 pictures
1st picture, 4 beasts with six wings = is the first picture with the day divided into 4-6 hour periods.
2nd picture is the two witnesses of the same day divided by 2 -12 hour periods
And the 3rd picture is the 24 Elders as the same day being a 24 hour day whole.

If you count them you will see 7 parts divided by 3 pictures

The first creation was 7 days, the second creation of the 7 days was done in one day, and the new creation the third, has a beginning but no end.

Some of you might be able to give this a little thought, for there in is the understanding of what all transpired with Jesus on the day He was crucified.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Sola'lor]

Here's a scripture that helps the LDS better understand the Book of Revelation.

Doctrine and Covenants 77

 

[look3467]

Here's a scripture that helps the LDS better understand the Book of Revelation.

Doctrine and Covenants 77

Sorry have no clue to what document you refer to.
The bible is the only book I use as in there is where all is located.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Sola'lor]

Sorry have no clue to what document you refer to.
The bible is the only book I use as in there is where all is located.

Peace>>>AJ

It's an LDS book of scripture called the Doctrine and Covenants.

 

[look3467]

It's an LDS book of scripture called the Doctrine and Covenants.

I thought that might be the case.
Tell me how it explains what the 4 beasts of Revelation are, or how the symbolism is used?

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Sola'lor]

About D&C 77:
Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Hiram, Ohio, March 1832. HC 1: 253–255. The Prophet wrote, “In connection with the translation of the Scriptures, I received the following explanation of the Revelation of St. John.”

Doctrine and Covenants 77:3, 4

3 Q. Are the four beasts limited to individual beasts, or do they represent classes or orders?
A. They are limited to four individual beasts, which were shown to John, to represent the glory of the classes of beings in their destined order or sphere of creation, in the enjoyment of their eternal felicity.

4 Q. What are we to understand by the eyes and wings, which the beasts had?
A. Their eyes are a representation of light and knowledge, that is, they are full of knowledge; and their wings are a representation of power, to move, to act, etc.

 

[look3467]

How do those explanations tie in with the death and resurrection of Jesus?

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Sola'lor]

How do those explanations tie in with the death and resurrection of Jesus?

Peace>>>AJ

They are talking about the four beasts and the symbolism you asked about.

 

[look3467]

They are talking about the four beasts and the symbolism you asked about.

Yes, but how do you tie them in with Jesus' death and resurrection?

Jesus I know is central to your beliefs as is mine, but there is a definite tie to Jesus for the very first verse says:
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
So the book is about Jesus' experience in all of it, wouldn't you say?

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Sola'lor]

Yes, but how do you tie them in with Jesus' death and resurrection?

Jesus I know is central to your beliefs as is mine, but there is a definite tie to Jesus for the very first verse says:
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
So the book is about Jesus' experience in all of it, wouldn't you say?

Peace>>>AJ

Well it seems to me that these beasts are symbolic of all animal life worshiping Christ(the Lamb).

 

[Dunemeister]

Yes, but how do you tie them in with Jesus' death and resurrection?

Jesus I know is central to your beliefs as is mine, but there is a definite tie to Jesus for the very first verse says:
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
So the book is about Jesus' experience in all of it, wouldn't you say?

Peace>>>AJ

No. It's about the persecution that Christians were about to suffer under Emperor Nero. Revelation was given to offer warning, comfort, and encouragement to a persecuted church. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus' experience with anything (although it does refer on a couple of occasions to Jesus' life, death, and resurrection).

 

[look3467]

John's account:
Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

John was at the isle of Potmos when he saw this vision correct?

He was in Spirit on the Lord's day correct?

The Lord's day is?

"And he heard behind him" as saying that being on the Lord's day which was in time past, he heard a great voice?

The Lord's day is the day when Jesus did His work, the day of redemption for all mankind was the day of His crucification.

Going back then to the Lord's Supper, verse one gives them an introduction of which things Jesus is about to pass through as in "to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;

Jesus was speaking about His travail which was about to begin.

Now, your rendition is a good application of that verse and as like you say, gave comfort in times of persecution, but the real story is as I described it to you.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Dunemeister]

What are you talking about? By the time Revelation was penned (AD 100 or so), Jesus' travail was some 67 to 70 years ago. So how could Revelation be about Jesus' travail? (And why do I get the sneaking suspicion that the answer involves a highly idiosyncratic -- not to mention recently developed and therefore novel -- reading?)

 

[look3467]

What are you talking about? By the time Revelation was penned (AD 100 or so), Jesus' travail was some 67 to 70 years ago. So how could Revelation be about Jesus' travail? (And why do I get the sneaking suspicion that the answer involves a highly idiosyncratic -- not to mention recently developed and therefore novel -- reading?)

John "looked" behind him, meaning saw what went on before him, before the vision was given him.

He saw what Jesus went through to conquer hell and death for us by becoming all that there was as sin, in order to liberate us, exempt us from eternal damnation (Death) and or hell (Holding place).

The number 7 includes the whole of creation as Jesus visited each day of creation, meaning that every soul that ever lived was covered by His blood sacrifice unto salvation.

That is the explanation written to us but in symbolic form for fear of the believes persecution as you mentioned earlier.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Dunemeister]

John "looked" behind him, meaning saw what went on before him, before the vision was given him.

Why not interpret this literally. John heard a voice and turned to see who was talking to him?

He saw what Jesus went through to conquer hell and death for us by becoming all that there was as sin, in order to liberate us, exempt us from eternal damnation (Death) and or hell (Holding place).

This statement is fine theologically, but how do you justify the claim that this is what is happening in the opening chapters of Revelation?

The number 7 includes the whole of creation as Jesus visited each day of creation, meaning that every soul that ever lived was covered by His blood sacrifice unto salvation.

Again, how do you justify that this is what 7 means? Where are you getting your information? And certainly how can we be certain that the number 7 (whether in this case or in any other) refers to creation? And on what basis do you say that "each day of creation" refers to "every soul that ever lived was covered by His blood sacrifice"?

With all respect, it seems that your interpretation is arbitrary because it betrays little knowledge of the Jewish apocalyptic tradition upon which Revelation is based. Your conclusions seem orthodox enough so far, all right, so no harm done, but it seems like your "Revelation" adds nothing to what has been written before. So, it's possible you are missing out on the actual force of Revelation by following teachers who don't have any real contact with the Jewish apocalyptic traditions that stand behind Revelation. (Not surprising given how the church abandoned any conversation with their Jewish forbears as more and more Gentiles came into the church.) May I suggest you pick up works written by Richard Baukham? He wrote a great book The Theology of the Book of Revelation, which is marvelous and orthodox, but also penetrates the book through an understanding of Jewish apocalyptic. This particular book may be out of print, but he's a prolific writer, so I'm sure you'll find something helpful in this connection.

 

[look3467]

Why not interpret this literally. John heard a voice and turned to see who was talking to him? >>>Dunemeister

Something are interpreted literally, but a vision carries with it symbolisms which denote a literal happening.

True, John was after the fact, and was given him the task of giving us the message.

The message is about Jesus as the very first verse indicates, for Jesus is the central point of the whole bible.
The new heavens and the new earth begun at His resurrection: making Jesus the beginning of the end of the first creation, making the 7- days creation story the vehicle by which God in Jesus had to recreate.

If you have E-sword software or something comparable, search out the number 7, and you will be amazed at how many times it is repeated.

This statement is fine theologically, but how do you justify the claim that this is what is happening in the opening chapters of Revelation?>>> Dunemeister

There is a pattern to all of it, and I will give it to you. Keep it in mind when you study and you will began to see it.

• Introduction
• Fall
• Judgment
• Death/salvation

That is the pattern consistent from the very first book of Genesis through to Revelation, no change.

Jesus went through that pattern of and for all “7” days of creation in “1” day.

There are 3 pictures painted in the bible because God doubles twice the thing before He brings it to pass.
Gen 41:32 And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass.

Therefore, we know that there are going to be 3 separate pictures of the same thing.
The last one being: the new change.

The 4 beasts with six wings is the first picture representing the first four days of creation.
Meaning:4 quarters of the day each 6 hours long.

That pattern I just gave you above fit the pattern of those four quarters to a T.
Follow that pattern commencing with the Lord’s Supper.

If you can see that, I may continue on another post.

Again, how do you justify that this is what 7 means?>>> Dunemeister

7 is the key that unlocks it all, it is a completion number of all that is before it.

Peace>>>AJ

P.S. Thanks for being respectful of my views as I am of yours.

 

[Dunemeister]

Hey, AJ, I have to say that your take on Revelation is entirely unique, and for that reason I'm suspicious -- not of you, mind, but of your teachers. This interpretive scheme of yours fails to take on board the unique nature of the book of Revelation, and it betrays a lack of appreciation for how Jewish apocalyptic writings work. The fourfold pattern you indicate does not hold for all books or groups of books. (E.g., it does not hold for Jeremiah, Amos, or Isaiah, or Song of Songs) It certainly doesn't hold for the Psalms (and definitely not for all the psalms!). In other words, each genre of writing uses its own narrative grammar, and your fourfold pattern is being imposed on them. Again, I commend Baukham to you. He'll be of immense help.

 

[Troublemane]

The 144,000 are 12,000 representatives from each of the 12 tribes of "israel", which of course never really existed---there never were actual 12 tribes, these were just myths. The real 12 tribes were/are of course the 12 signs of the zodiac. So the 12,000 representatives are passages of the sun through each zodiac sign12,000 times, or equalling 12,000 years.(roughly half a cycle of equinoctal precession) This passage and others reveals that Revelations is another solar myth, as is much of the rest of the bible, in my opinion.

 

[GadFly]

Hey, AJ, I have to say that your take on Revelation is entirely unique, and for that reason I'm suspicious -- not of you, mind, but of your teachers. This interpretive scheme of yours fails to take on board the unique nature of the book of Revelation, and it betrays a lack of appreciation for how Jewish apocalyptic writings work. The fourfold pattern you indicate does not hold for all books or groups of books. (E.g., it does not hold for Jeremiah, Amos, or Isaiah, or Song of Songs) It certainly doesn't hold for the Psalms (and definitely not for all the psalms!). In other words, each genre of writing uses its own narrative grammar, and your fourfold pattern is being imposed on them. Again, I commend Baukham to you. He'll be of immense help.

Pleas explain a couple of things to me. I ask this because I am truly attempting to work out a few concepts in my mind.Explain to me what is the Jewish apocalyptic writings. Also, not that these two concepts are related, but why would any theologian include the anti-Christ in a discussion of the Book of Revelation since the term is not used in this book? I can not find any place in the Bible where it is taught that the anti-Christ is to come. Everything I read is that the anti-Christ has always been here. Have I missed something?

 

[Dunemeister]

Pleas explain a couple of things to me. I ask this because I am truly attempting to work out a few concepts in my mind.Explain to me what is the Jewish apocalyptic writings. Also, not that these two concepts are related, but why would any theologian include the anti-Christ in a discussion of the Book of Revelation since the term is not used in this book? I can not find any place in the Bible where it is taught that the anti-Christ is to come. Everything I read is that the anti-Christ has always been here. Have I missed something?

Well, the OP confined the discussion to a limited part of Revelation. I have opened the discussion up to wider issues that concern the whole book. I can go into this further, but I don't want to hijack this thread, so to speak. So to address your concerns, I'll start another thread in a couple of days that deals with the interpretation of apocalyptic. I'll define what apocalyptic is, provide some example writings from ancient Jewish and Christian sources, and draw out some principles about how to handle such writings.

Sorry to have taken this thread a little beyond what the OP stated.