Revelation 14

[look3467]

Hey, AJ, I have to say that your take on Revelation is entirely unique, and for that reason I'm suspicious -- not of you, mind, but of your teachers. This interpretive scheme of yours fails to take on board the unique nature of the book of Revelation, and it betrays a lack of appreciation for how Jewish apocalyptic writings work. The fourfold pattern you indicate does not hold for all books or groups of books. (E.g., it does not hold for Jeremiah, Amos, or Isaiah, or Song of Songs) It certainly doesn't hold for the Psalms (and definitely not for all the psalms!). In other words, each genre of writing uses its own narrative grammar, and your fourfold pattern is being imposed on them. Again, I commend Baukham to you. He'll be of immense help.>>> Dunemeister

I will show you not only the same pattern but go 3 more after that for a complete 7.

JER 1:10 See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant.
The day of the cross is divided into corners or kingdoms by Nehemiah 9:22. Note the ""this day"", all this is for the day of the cross. There are 7 time periods here; the day of the cross is seen as 7 time periods of 3 pictures looking at 7 times seen as one day as 7 in Isaiah 30:26. 1=set thee over the nations, Jesus reigns the day of the cross as he states what he will do. (Introduction)2=to root out, the disciples flee at midnight, they are the dust that clingeth, (Fall or the sins of the world upon Jesus) they had to be shaken off because the house of Israel did not receive Jesus. 3=to pull down, this is the judgmentfalling on Christ; with his stripes we are healed. Jesus has to allow this, he has cast himself down to allow the angels or 144 with Judas power over him. 4=destroy,(Death/salvation) noon to sunset Jesus is all things cursed, even the earth, destroyed by god's word as a fire.

There you have the four fold pattern using Isaiah, Nehemiah and Jeremiah.

Continuing we see: 5=to throw down, Jesus descends into hell. 6=to build, Jesus in hell is receiving them into the body of Christ also. They are the other sheep which hear his voice, these are seen in the book of revelation as having come out of great tribulation and have washed their clothes in the blood of the lamb. Note: hell ended on the third day. 7=to plant. Those from hell are planted in heaven, the 7th also being the third physical day when they rose with Jesus, seen in Hosea 6:2, Isaiah 26:19, and Zechariah 9:11. At death of our earthly bodies all remember and turn unto the lord is they do not already know god, so we also are planted in heaven at death.

You can see that the central figure of which the entire bible is pointing to is the “day” of Jesus.
That is the beginning: Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Jesus is the end of the beginning, the first that is, and the beginning of the second as the first and that without end.

That is the whole picture, the big picture.

Everything else has to be worked out individually to what the Holy Spirit grants us to know.

Today, we are privileged to have such knowledge granted us by our ancestors sufferings, trials and tribulations in their quest to understand God, as the body of Christ matures to His stature.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[look3467]

The 144,000 are 12,000 representatives from each of the 12 tribes of "israel", which of course never really existed---there never were actual 12 tribes, these were just myths. The real 12 tribes were/are of course the 12 signs of the zodiac. So the 12,000 representatives are passages of the sun through each zodiac sign12,000 times, or equalling 12,000 years.(roughly half a cycle of equinoctal precession) This passage and others reveals that Revelations is another solar myth, as is much of the rest of the bible, in my opinion.

I will give you some clue verses to help decipher the 144,000 number.
144 men with Judas are multiplied by 1000 in Deuteronomy 1:11

Deu 1:11 (The LORD God of your fathers make you a thousand times so many more as ye are, and bless you, as he hath promised you!)

144,000 Sealed from seeing Jesus in Isaiah 29:10/13, Rev 7:4

Those men did not see the light of Jesus, they were sealed, meaning their minds were sealed from seeing who Jesus was.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Dunemeister]

Regretfully, I remain unconvinced that the scheme works for all the books and styles of writings. Where are the Proverbs? Psalms? Ecclesiastes? Where is this pattern in the larger schemas of the books? The overall Jewish story takes the shape of creation, fall, suffering, and redemption, so it's no surprise that it finds its way into slogans and some passages. But other than acknowledging in summary form the whole story of Israel, I'm not sure what to make of it. But apparently, you've found some mystery or "key" in it. So long as you live your life beyond reproach, steer clear of heresy and don't bring disrepute on the church, I'll leave well enough alone. I won't seek to convince you that your so-called key is mistaken.

 

[look3467]

Well, the OP confined the discussion to a limited part of Revelation. I have opened the discussion up to wider issues that concern the whole book. I can go into this further, but I don't want to hijack this thread, so to speak. So to address your concerns, I'll start another thread in a couple of days that deals with the interpretation of apocalyptic. I'll define what apocalyptic is, provide some example writings from ancient Jewish and Christian sources, and draw out some principles about how to handle such writings.

Sorry to have taken this thread a little beyond what the OP stated.

My dear friend Dunemeister, I believe letting the Holy Spirit direct our course of conversations.

Feel free to entertain any questions asked on this thread, for the object is to teach and learn.

We are all after truth, and we may help each other attain knowledge.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[look3467]

Regretfully, I remain unconvinced that the scheme works for all the books and styles of writings. Where are the Proverbs? Psalms? Ecclesiastes? Where is this pattern in the larger schemas of the books? The overall Jewish story takes the shape of creation, fall, suffering, and redemption, so it's no surprise that it finds its way into slogans and some passages. But other than acknowledging in summary form the whole story of Israel, I'm not sure what to make of it. But apparently, you've found some mystery or "key" in it. So long as you live your life beyond reproach, steer clear of heresy and don't bring disrepute on the church, I'll leave well enough alone. I won't seek to convince you that your so-called key is mistaken.

I understand your concern. But unless new revelations are fore-coming, the growth of knowledge is stifled.

My understanding is such that not one soul shall be lost to eternal damnation.

That is not a hard concept to understand if one has understanding of what Jesus came to do.

But, I will still entertain any questions regardless of who wants to ask them.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[lockyfan]

The 144000 are the anointed christians that will become the priests and kings (Revelation 5:10) of Christs rule. They are the ones that have proven themselves faithful to Jehovah God. They are the only humans (that were humans from the start of their creation) to go to heaven. Revelation 14:2, 14:4

Every other human dies and ceases to exist. Ecclesiasties 9:5

if you notice they have the name of not only the Father on their foreheads, but the name of Christ on their foreheads as well. This is because they are marked like the worshipers of the devil are with 666, but unlike those worshipers, the 144 000 have stayed true to God and recognising that it is through Christ and the sacrifice of Christs perfect human life, that they have been blessed with their position. the 144 000 are then are marked with the name of their Father and Jesus Christ.

And I have actually answered your last question. The lamb is another name for Jesus Christ. Revelation 5:8-12

 

[look3467]

The 144000 are the anointed christians that will become the priests and kings (Revelation 5:10) of Christs rule. They are the ones that have proven themselves faithful to Jehovah God. They are the only humans (that were humans from the start of their creation) to go to heaven. Revelation 14:2, 14:4

Every other human dies and ceases to exist. Ecclesiasties 9:5

if you notice they have the name of not only the Father on their foreheads, but the name of Christ on their foreheads as well. This is because they are marked like the worshipers of the devil are with 666, but unlike those worshipers, the 144 000 have stayed true to God and recognising that it is through Christ and the sacrifice of Christs perfect human life, that they have been blessed with their position. the 144 000 are then are marked with the name of their Father and Jesus Christ.

And I have actually answered your last question. The lamb is another name for Jesus Christ. Revelation 5:8-12

Well lockyfan, your view is one view of which I am familiar with, and I'll respect that view.

The bible was written with allot of metaphors, symbolisms and numbers.
Deciphering through them requires a good knowledge of the bible as a whole, studying the worlds religions, and asking God for understanding through prayer and meditation.

Along with that comes responsibility to not use such information for personal use, meaning to gain profit from it, but to share the revelations given one with love and compassion and without discrimination.

I understand where you are coming from and what views you hold, but you don't know mine unless I explain them to you.

And that is what I am doing.

If it does not fit well, then if I were you, I'd move on to some place else, but if you are willing to investigate, search out some truth, then hang in there as I try to give explanations for my views.

Please, at no time do I want to convert anyone, but only to let God do His work with whomever He sees fit to.

Here is the place to learn from because there are a wide range of views to learn from, and I can tell you right now, that none of us has the Conner on truth.

Your quote:
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Is speaking to the fleshly body, for we all know we must one day die, and that body returns to the earth and is forgotten.

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

If that is the case then, my friend, then hopes awaits us after this life is over, otherwise, why bother?
Peace>>>AJ

 

[lockyfan]

Ok I respect your view, yet this is the version of Ecliasisties 9:5 I was refering to
For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

How can the dead continue, when they "know not anything"?

The 144 000 are anointed from faithful christians, as part of the covenant mentioned by christ at Luke 22:28-30 “However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel. That is the purpose of the 144 000 also said to Timothy by Paul at
2 Timothy 2:10-12
On this account ,I go on enduring all things for the sake of the chosen ones that they too may obtain the salvation that is in union with Christ Jesus along with everlasting glory. Faithful is the saying: Certainly if we died together, we shall also live together; if we go on enduring, we shall also rule together as kings;

 

[Katzpur]

Ok I respect your view, yet this is the version of Ecliasisties 9:5 I was refering to
For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

How can the dead continue, when they "know not anything"?

Hello, Lockyfan. Two questions for you...

1. The New Testament describes Christ's visit to "the spirits in prison" during the three-day period after His crucifixion when His body lay in the tomb. This visit was for the purpose of preaching His gospel to them, since they had died previously and had not known of Him. Why would He have "preached also to them that are dead," if they knew not anything? Wouldn't that be an enormous waste of His time?

2. You are clearly a Jehovah's Witness (or at least believe the same things they do). Why don't you state this in your profile. We have so few JWs on the forum that it would be nice if people knew that there was at least one person to whom they could direct their questions on that religion. Many will figure it out on their own, but some will not.

 

[lockyfan]

can you please quote the scripture you are refering to? so that i can get a full understand of what you are saying and be able to read for myself from the scriptures? That would be great thanks

If you do that, then I will answer your question. thank you

 

[Katzpur]

can you please quote the scripture you are refering to? so that i can get a full understand of what you are saying and be able to read for myself from the scriptures? That would be great thanks.

If you do that, then I will answer your question. thank you

Fair enough. References to Christ's visit to the Spirit Prison are mentioned in 1Peter 3 and 1Peter 4. Both are very short chapters, so you'll probably want to read them in their entirety. Also, Luke 16:22-23 refers to two states of existence after death -- "Abraham's bosom" and "Hell." And we all know of the conversation between Christ and the thief who hung next to Him on the cross, where Christ promises the man that before the day is over He'd see him in Paradise. The scriptures are full of references to the state our spirits will be in between the time we die and the time we are resurrected.

 

[look3467]

Fair enough. References to Christ's visit to the Spirit Prison are mentioned in 1Peter 3 and 1Peter 4. Both are very short chapters, so you'll probably want to read them in their entirety. Also, Luke 16:22-23 refers to two states of existence after death -- "Abraham's bosom" and "Hell." And we all know of the conversation between Christ and the thief who hung next to Him on the cross, where Christ promises the man that before the day is over He'd see him in Paradise. The scriptures are full of references to the state our spirits will be in between the time we die and the time we are resurrected.

Along with that friends, I include the purpose of His visit? First, as Katzpur pointed out, these folks lived and died without so much as hearing or knowing anything about the Christ.
Second, I would like to include a couple of scriptures: HOSEA 6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us
up, and we shall live in his sight.

Hence the wait for the third day? That part had to be accomplished as part of God's doubling to make things come to pass.

The other scripture references have to do with opening up heavens gates as well as hell's gates.
Deu 28:23 And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron.

ISAIAH 45:2 I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:

The brass gates of heaven were closed to all mankind save one, and the gates of Iron were also closed to all mankind save one.

That one: is Jesus, who broke open the gates of brass and the gates of iron to let mankind free to enter God's abode.

Mankind's 911 call:
Zec 9:11 As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.

My friend and friends, be it known that God forgets not our soul that He gave us, for it is precious in His sight.

Speaking of Jesus:
Isa 43:4 Since thou wast precious in my sight, thou hast been honorable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life.
There you have it in a nut shell, Jesus' favor gained our salvation with God.

One last verse if you don't mind: Psalm 107-15 Oh that men would praise the Lord for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!

Peace>>>AJ

 

[lockyfan]

that is actually talking about the angels who followed Satan, the ones who have become demons. The Angels that took human form during the days of Noah and "knew" the women of that time.

1 Peter 3:18-20
Why, even Christ died once for all time concerning sins, a righteous [person] for unrighteous ones, that he might lead YOU to God, he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit. In this [state] also he went his way and preached to the spirits in prison, who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days, while the ark was being constructed, in which a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water.

Notice how people are referred to as Souls, not Spirits?

Now to back up my idea on who these spirits are i use

Luke 8:27-31
But as he got out onto land a certain man from the city who had demons met him. And for a considerable time he had not worn clothing, and he was staying, not at home, but among the tombs. At the sight of Jesus he cried aloud and fell down before him, and with a loud voice he said: “What have I to do with you, Jesus Son of the Most High God? I beg you, do not torment me.” (For he had been ordering the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For over a long time it had held him fast, and he was repeatedly bound with chains and fetters under guard, but he would burst the bonds and be driven by the demon into the lonely places.) Jesus asked him: “What is your name?” He said: “Legion,” because many demons had entered into him. And they kept entreating him not to order them to go away into the abyss

Revelation 20:3
And he hurled him into the abyss and shut [it] and sealed [it] over him, that he might not mislead the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After these things he must be let loose for a little while. (the Abyss is what is awaiting Satan and his demons)
Matthew 8:28-29
When he got to the other side, into the country of the Gad·a·renes´, there met him two demon-possessed men coming out from among the memorial tombs, unusually fierce, so that nobody had the courage to pass by on that road. 29 And, look! they screamed, saying: “What have we to do with you, Son of God? Did you come here to torment us before the appointed time?” The demons are asking Jesus if he is there to "torment them" before the above mentioned act in revelation 20:3

now I will also use to prove my point the scripture of
1 Peter 2:4
Certainly if God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tar´ta·rus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment;

the angels are in a pit awaiting Judgement. They are cut off from Jehovah God.

Jude 6 further makes the point that the spirits in prison are the ones that Jehovah has cut off from him by saying:
And the angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place he has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.

So the spirit Prison is clearly, where these angels are, and Jesus is obviously just preaching to them, trying to show them where they went wrong, but these angels will never listen, and therefore are set for destruction.

And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron.

Notice how it speaks of an earth, and a heaven, but look no mention of HELL

Psalm 37:29 clearly states
The righteous themselves will possess the earth,
And they will reside forever upon it.
John 3:13-17
Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man. And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so the Son of man must be lifted up, that everyone believing in him may have everlasting life. “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him.

No man has ever entered heaven, barring the one who descended from heaven - Jesus. All those who get everlasting life are those who will reside on the earth forever, but you must EXERCISE your faith.
Revelation 21:2-4
I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

He God, will be with us just like he was with Adam and Eve in the beginning, but he in heaven, and us on earth.

 

[Katzpur]

that is actually talking about the angels who followed Satan, the ones who have become demons. The Angels that took human form during the days of Noah and "knew" the women of that time.

1 Peter 3:18-20
Why, even Christ died once for all time concerning sins, a righteous [person] for unrighteous ones, that he might lead YOU to God, he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit. In this [state] also he went his way and preached to the spirits in prison, who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days, while the ark was being constructed, in which a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water.

Notice how people are referred to as Souls, not Spirits?

You are aware, I assume, that there are over 1100 references to "sprits" and "souls" in the Bible. Oftentimes these words are used interchangeably, but technically, a soul is the entity which results when a spirit is infused into a physical body. Are you saying that Christ preached to these angels who willingly followed Satan, while neglecting to share His gospel with the hundreds of thousands of human beings who died without ever having heard His gospel? Why on earth would a loving Savior have done that?

Notice how it speaks of an earth, and a heaven, but look no mention of HELL.

Well, that verse may not speak of Hell, but others do. Luke 16:22-25 clearly describes both Paradise and Hell. It says:

"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented."

Now this passages is clearly speaking of two different individuals who died and found themselves in two different states -- prior to being resurrected. Both were aware. They were cognizant of their surroundings, one being in torment and the other being comforted. How do you explain this?

John 3:13-17
Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man. And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so the Son of man must be lifted up, that everyone believing in him may have everlasting life. “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him.

No man has ever entered heaven, barring the one who descended from heaven - Jesus.

I would agree with you that none are currently in Heaven, but Paradise and Heaven are not one and the same. Jesus told the repentant thief who hung next to Him on the cross that He would see him on that very day in Paradise. Was He saying, "I will see you in Paradise today, but you won't be aware of my presence. You won't know anything."? (By the way, I say that Paradise is not the same place as Heaven because when Christ appeared to Mary on Easter morning, He told her not to touch Him since He hadn't yet ascended to His Father in Heaven. Since this was three days after He told the thief that He'd see him in Paradise that same day, He was obviously talking about someplace different from Heaven.)

 

[look3467]

Let me see if I can paint you a picture of what transpired when God created mankind and then perhaps you will see why Jesus went to hell.

Opening verse: Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Under those conditions, Adam and Eve were created.

Separating the two, the first “subject to vanity” is the body in it’s “lost state”: confirming verse: Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;


It was not until Jesus came on the scene that the second part of that verse applies “who hath subjected the same in hope”.

In between times, mankind was in limbo, held in prison between heaven and earth, many call it hell.

These were the folks who died not knowing who Jesus was, and to them is who Jesus was sent to hell for.

These folks were the first after Christ to be resurrected.

Notice on that verse the word “subjected”?

That word implies that mankind had no say so on what God did.

Now, if you can comprehend that simple picture, all else is a workable experience of which are as many as there are beliefs.

Jesus is the lover of the world; otherwise, salvation would be limited only to those who believed and the rest, well, not accepted.

That not being the case: confirming verse: Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Gods creation is saved by God Him self in Jesus by subjecting all in hope.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[lockyfan]

You are aware, I assume, that there are over 1100 references to "sprits" and "souls" in the Bible. Oftentimes these words are used interchangeably, but technically, a soul is the entity which results when a spirit is infused into a physical body. Are you saying that Christ preached to these angels who willingly followed Satan, while neglecting to share His gospel with the hundreds of thousands of human beings who died without ever having heard His gospel? Why on earth would a loving Savior have done that?

Well the thing is, the Gospels record what Jesus was preaching to the earth. That is what he did, so you see he did preach to the earth as well, and it was noted within the scriptures themselves. read them, they tell us how to tell when he is enthroned as King of god's Kingdom, also they tell u about god's kingdom and the times of the end of satans system. All this and more in the gospel Scriptures. so you see he did leave humans a chance to hear his gospel, but and like then, you just have to choose as to whether you wish to listen

Well, that verse may not speak of Hell, but others do. Luke 16:22-25 clearly describes both Paradise and Hell. It says:

"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented."

Now this passages is clearly speaking of two different individuals who died and found themselves in two different states -- prior to being resurrected. Both were aware. They were cognizant of their surroundings, one being in torment and the other being comforted. How do you explain this?

I will get back to you on how they were "aware" but I will get back to you.

Also my scriptures don't use the name hell, it uses the name that hell was translated from which is Hades, and hades is "the common grave of mankind" a just death, nothing else.

I would agree with you that none are currently in Heaven, but Paradise and Heaven are not one and the same. Jesus told the repentant thief who hung next to Him on the cross that He would see him on that very day in Paradise. Was He saying, "I will see you in Paradise today, but you won't be aware of my presence. You won't know anything."? (By the way, I say that Paradise is not the same place as Heaven because when Christ appeared to Mary on Easter morning, He told her not to touch Him since He hadn't yet ascended to His Father in Heaven. Since this was three days after He told the thief that He'd see him in Paradise that same day, He was obviously talking about someplace different from Heaven.)

can you please mention the scripture you are referring to so I can answer properly. thanks so much that would help a great deal.