Revelation Writing a Proof of God?

[stvdv]

The errors that Daniel mentions are found on sites that aim to discredit Baha'u'llah. I doubt there is any legitimate record of any error, as if there was, that would have definitely been used against Baha'u'llah by the Divines in his age

IF they use a verbal error to disprove Bahaullah, they are not smart nor scientific, and don't understand anything about proof in this context

Would not worry me a bit, such claims

They were looking for any way to discredit Baha'u'llah, but everytime when they thought that He had misquoted Islamic Traditions, they always found he was correct

Those who are always busy disproving others, never find truth, and they will be busy 24/7?

We need not even defend our Guru, then they will probably stop searching for errors

 

[Heyo]

OK, it appears this discussion is not for you. The flaw in your reply is you have accused reports as not trustworthy, without showing how those reports are untrustworthy.

I didn't want to accuse you or anyone of being untrustworthy. I meant it in the epistemological meaning. And I'm not dissing you or your religion specifically, I'm pointing out how revelation is a bad epistemology generally. It is always a game of telephone.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Are you asking this rhetorically or do you want an answer?

Offered just a thought for you, as personally I put it a too large a possibility that it chance only.

So no answer needed.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

IF they use a verbal error to disprove Bahaullah, they are not smart nor scientific, and don't understand anything about proof in this context

Would not worry me a bit, such claims

Those who are always busy disproving others, never find truth, and they will be busy 24/7?

We need not even defend our Guru, then they will probably stop searching for errors

I agree. Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I didn't want to accuse you or anyone of being untrustworthy. I meant it in the epistemological meaning. And I'm not dissing you or your religion specifically, I'm pointing out how revelation is a bad epistemology generally. It is always a game of telephone.

I just will offer sorry, you are using a word I am not familiar with, "epistemology".

Regards Tony

 

[Heyo]

I just will offer sorry, you are using a word I am not familiar with, "epistemology".

Regards Tony

Epistemology - Wikipedia

The philosophical branch concerning itself with what we can know.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Epistemology - Wikipedia

The philosophical branch concerning itself with what we can know.

Not sure how that relates to this OP.

I consider that the answers Baha'u'llah gave to the questions asked, always fully satisfied the enquiry put to Him. This is another important aspect of this OP. Baha'u'llah was seen to have access to knowledge far beyond the scope of ordinary men.

Baha'u'llah offered he did not obtain this through education.

This is how he explained knowledge came to Him.

"This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow. The learning current amongst men I studied not; their schools I entered not. Ask of the city wherein I dwelt, that thou mayest be well assured that I am not of them who speak falsely. This is but a leaf which the winds of the will of thy Lord, the Almighty, the All-Praised, have stirred. Can it be still when the tempestuous winds are blowing? Nay, by Him Who is the Lord of all Names and Attributes! They move it as they list. The evanescent is as nothing before Him Who is the Ever-Abiding. His all-compelling summons hath reached Me, and caused Me to speak His praise amidst all people...."

Thus when asked, Baha'u'llah has offered the reply flowed from the all knowing source.

Regards Tony

 

[Colt]

Spiritual truth is always a revelation.

"But no revelation short of the attainment of the Universal Father can ever be complete. All other celestial ministrations are no more than partial, transient, and practically adapted to local conditions in time and space". UB 1955

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

When Abdul'baha was very busy writing replies to letters, at the same time he was writing a reply, he was able to dictate to 5 other secretaries, each answering a different question.

Never did the train of thought for each dictation ever get confused, nor were any corrections required.

That is just an example of the amazing. I doubt anyone could say it is not amazing.

Regards Tony

Again: I always find it interesting to see what other people consider impressive.

Edit: I mean - to me - dictating to five people at once is probably a bit less impressive than playing chess against five people at once.

And one person playing chess against large groups of players is common enough that Wikipedia doesn't even try to track how often it has happened:

Simultaneous exhibition - Wikipedia

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Spiritual truth is always a revelation.

"But no revelation short of the attainment of the Universal Father can ever be complete. All other celestial ministrations are no more than partial, transient, and practically adapted to local conditions in time and space". UB 1955

From a Baha'i perspective, the Writings of Baha’u’llah are that of the "Father". That the Writings flowed from the Universal Father.

Regards Tony

 

[Heyo]

Not sure how that relates to this OP.

The title of this OP is "Revelation Writing a Proof of God?". I.e. you need a solid epistemology for the veracity of your premises. "Someone told me" is not that.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The title of this OP is "Revelation Writing a Proof of God?". I.e. you need a solid epistemology for the veracity of your premises. "Someone told me" is not that.

Sorry you used that word again, so am not seeing what you are saying.

The history is recorded. This history is very reliable. It was recorded for that very purpose, that people may have reliable and factual sources of those historical accounts.

Regards Tony

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

This is a discussion on how the Message of God has come to Humanity.

I think we have been gifted a proof of God in a way that many have not yet heard about, so are also yet to consider its value.

Both he Bab and Baha'u'llah revealed their messages in the same way. This ability was passed on to Abdul'baha (but not as a Messenger).

I will start the discussion with Baha'u'llah, who's Revelation came via both the Persian and Arabic Languages.

The topic is not about the copious amount of writings, or even the speed of those writings, amazing as that was, these aspects can have other explanations attributed to that phenomenon. Yet combined with the following, may become a proof.

Many writings came about by answering a question, an example is the Kitab-i-iqan which is 260 pages long, revealed in various sessions over 2 days and nights, which came about by a spontanious reply to a question asked by the Uncle of the Bab.

The reply that was given, with no preparation needed, no reference books looked at, and no correction required to the flow of words that resulted.

This is an example Leaf from the Epistle to the Son of the Wolf (Lawh-i-Ibn-i-Dhi'b), in the "Revelation" handwriting of Mirza Aqa Jan, the secretary of Bahá’u’lláh.

View attachment 62838
"Revelation" writing - The Life of Bahá'u'lláh

I see that Messages such as given by Jesus Christ and Muhammad came via the same method.

So that is the discussion. The phenomenon of "Revelation Writings". There is a lot of evidences that can be discussed.

Regards Tony

The "Ghost That Never Lies" has just revealed to me in a glorious voice that all religions have it wrong.

So that's that then, I guess.

 

[wellwisher]

This is a discussion on how the Message of God has come to Humanity.

I think we have been gifted a proof of God in a way that many have not yet heard about, so are also yet to consider its value.

Both he Bab and Baha'u'llah revealed their messages in the same way. This ability was passed on to Abdul'baha (but not as a Messenger).

I will start the discussion with Baha'u'llah, who's Revelation came via both the Persian and Arabic Languages.

The topic is not about the copious amount of writings, or even the speed of those writings, amazing as that was, these aspects can have other explanations attributed to that phenomenon. Yet combined with the following, may become a proof.

Many writings came about by answering a question, an example is the Kitab-i-iqan which is 260 pages long, revealed in various sessions over 2 days and nights, which came about by a spontanious reply to a question asked by the Uncle of the Bab.

The reply that was given, with no preparation needed, no reference books looked at, and no correction required to the flow of words that resulted.

This is an example Leaf from the Epistle to the Son of the Wolf (Lawh-i-Ibn-i-Dhi'b), in the "Revelation" handwriting of Mirza Aqa Jan, the secretary of Bahá’u’lláh.

View attachment 62838
"Revelation" writing - The Life of Bahá'u'lláh

I see that Messages such as given by Jesus Christ and Muhammad came via the same method.

So that is the discussion. The phenomenon of "Revelation Writings". There is a lot of evidences that can be discussed.

Regards Tony

In some respects this process is loosely similar to someone in sports having their record setting day, where it is like the "gods" are leading their hands so everything they do is perfect and almost predestined for that day. It is awe inspiring to watch and can melt even a hostile crowd with amazement.

The human brain has two centers of consciousness; inner self and ego. The inner self is connected to our DNA. It is the conscious aspect of the unconscious mind. It is connected to the operating system of the brain, that defines us a species; human nature. The inner self is very similar in all humans, since we are all human and have human DNA and human needs and propensities.

The ego, which is newer, is often referred to as the center of the conscious mind. The ego has self awareness and learns through observation, language and culture. It is much more individual than the inner self, since our sensory and intuitive experiences in time and space are unique to us. Although specific cultural learning does creates some homogeneity in terms of the cultural ego. It appears the ego was derived from from the inner self to provide a secondary POV; civilization on top of DNA natural.

Based on estimates the ego uses about 10% of the brain capacity, while the inner self can use up to 100% in times of need. The inner self is like a main frame super computer, while the ego is like a terminal computer that has access to the main frame, but can also run its own unique programs; will and choice. Often both data streams can appear at the same time to ego consciousness. Being able to differentiate the other is what allows the ego to become self aware; two separate things.

Such inspired writings, which describe the essence of our shared humanity, probably stem from the inner self. The main frame part of the brain did the main data crunching and the output comes to the ego terminal as a process output stream. This happens all the time at some level. The uniqueness in the above case is connected to a needed translation link between the inner self and ego. This goes beyond needing to be inner self aware. The inner self processes in 3-D and 4-D, while the ego is more like 2-D; cause and affect. It takes lot of practice and skill to bridge the gap, so fast 3-D output is more 2-D available to the ego.

In the example of the sports figure having their glory days of personal records, the ego terminal; player is being driven by the inner self main frame. The translation link is possible due to years of training the body to do all the similar moves. It would be hard to take advantage of this cooperative moment, between inner self and ego ,if you had no practice to help create a conscious framework for its expression. You may sense a new song, but lack the ability to play it, so you can preserve the moment via external reinforcement. Instead you have a memory and gut feeling that lives on.

This does not take away from the Divine things of Religion, but rather place these Divine things close to our higher human potential that we all share; inner self. If you believe in God, he is above us and would need a way to step down, with the inner self that translation link on the way to the ego. The ego first needs to build a bridge from itself, inward, to the inner self. The inner man is well known in all religions and is where we interface the divine; Buddha.

 

[Revoltingest]

Sorry you used that word again, so am not seeing what you are saying.

The history is recorded. This history is very reliable. It was recorded for that very purpose, that people may have reliable and factual sources of those historical accounts.

Regards Tony

"Proof" to a religious believer is very different from
a rigorous logical proof. The believer's premises
aren't absolute truth. Note for example that you say
that "history is very reliable". The word "very" implies
high trust but not inerrancy. One thing I learn from
history is that it's written by people with their own
perspective & agenda, ie, no one is totally objective,
complete, & accurate.

So we have history that some people give meaning
about the number of gods & which god is the true one.
But none of it is testable in our time...it all depends
upon something that some people said long ago.
This is not verifiable with any certainty...or at all IMO.
It appears to be not provable...nor even disprovable.
Tis all "nicht einmal falsch", ie, not even wrong...at best.

Instead of calling it a "proof", perhaps one should say...
"Here are reasons supporting what I believe."

 

[firedragon]

This is a discussion on how the Message of God has come to Humanity.

I think we have been gifted a proof of God in a way that many have not yet heard about, so are also yet to consider its value.

Both he Bab and Baha'u'llah revealed their messages in the same way. This ability was passed on to Abdul'baha (but not as a Messenger).

I will start the discussion with Baha'u'llah, who's Revelation came via both the Persian and Arabic Languages.

The topic is not about the copious amount of writings, or even the speed of those writings, amazing as that was, these aspects can have other explanations attributed to that phenomenon. Yet combined with the following, may become a proof.

Many writings came about by answering a question, an example is the Kitab-i-iqan which is 260 pages long, revealed in various sessions over 2 days and nights, which came about by a spontanious reply to a question asked by the Uncle of the Bab.

The reply that was given, with no preparation needed, no reference books looked at, and no correction required to the flow of words that resulted.

This is an example Leaf from the Epistle to the Son of the Wolf (Lawh-i-Ibn-i-Dhi'b), in the "Revelation" handwriting of Mirza Aqa Jan, the secretary of Bahá’u’lláh.

View attachment 62838
"Revelation" writing - The Life of Bahá'u'lláh

I see that Messages such as given by Jesus Christ and Muhammad came via the same method.

So that is the discussion. The phenomenon of "Revelation Writings". There is a lot of evidences that can be discussed.

Regards Tony

Isn't proselytisation against forum rules?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Isn't proselytisation against forum rules?

Hi brother,

This topic touches on a very interesting question I’d like to open up, possibly another thread.

I might call it ‘How do we know a Prophet is a Prophet’ or from God. I’d like to explore this to deepen my knowledge and so I invite you.

 

[firedragon]

Hi brother,

This topic touches on a very interesting question I’d like to open up, possibly another thread.

I might call it ‘How do we know a Prophet is a Prophet’ or from God. I’d like to explore this to deepen my knowledge and so I invite you.

I think your topic is a whole different ballgame. But this particular thread is just proselytisation. Preaching.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I think your topic is a whole different ballgame. But this particular thread is just proselytisation. Preaching.

No it’s not. I genuinely want to know why people believe what they believe. What is it that makes a prophet a prophet.

For example why did Christ attract billions and Muhammad? Why not you or I? What did They possess? I want to explore this for my own knowledge. These Prophets were the cause of civilisations being born and yet what were Their qualifications? Christ is reported to have been the son of a carpenter. Muhammad a merchant. Today billions try and follow Their teachings. What makes people believe in Them?

Why do you believe in God? Or Muhammad? Have you seen Them? It’s fascinating to me because if there was nothing about Them then any merchant or son of a carpenter should be able to replicate Their achievements and it’s not for want of trying that no one has so far succeeded.

I am asking a genuine question without any ulterior ambition or motivation.

 

[firedragon]

No it’s not. I genuinely want to know why people believe what they believe. What is it that makes a prophet a prophet.

Good topic.