firedragon
Veteran Member
This would require a huge study my friend. Its a huge quest.
There was one guy called Michael H Hart who wrote a book on the most influential people in history. That might give insight to your 'why" question.
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Revelation Writing a Proof of God?
- Thread starter TransmutingSoul
- Start date
This would require a huge study my friend. Its a huge quest.
There was one guy called Michael H Hart who wrote a book on the most influential people in history. That might give insight to your 'why" question.
What independent objective evidence exists that any of these claims made about how these writings came about are actually true. Founders and followers of a religion can make up any number of claims in their attempt to propagate their beliefs. Why believe them?
firedragon
Veteran Member
The only way is to make an internal inquiry. External inquiries will not be really believed by a skeptic anyway. I mean it will be pushed to hearsay. So what you must consider is how to make an internal inquiry.
In my opinion Islamic history and Christian modern scholarship have given you the tools to do that. Honestly I cant think of any other literature of theological background having such scrutiny.
It's a difficult path and very difficult to explain so quickly. One has to put effort.
I have read some of the Bahai sources learning from the Bahai's themselves in this very forum. This is where I truly encountered the Bahai faith. Most in this forum are absolutely unaware of Islamic scholarship. I mean its like blank. But, a lot of people appreciate Christian scholarship though they would not like to call it Christian scholarship.
If you are to make an inquiry, you can apply the Christian method on the Bahai scripture. That would be a fantastic, but difficult endeavour. Bottomline is, you have to make an internal inquiry. That means take the scripture, find their manuscripts, tag them, date them, analyse the text, use philologists, and depending on the text, use some critical methods developed by Christians etc etc. IMO.
Yes it is, but thanks for visiting, and also consider that one day you may wish to purse the topic of the OP.
Regards Tony
]
Using your sports example, I will offer what I see Revelation Writing is like.
It would be a person that never pursued or practice sport, but when asked to play any sport, would already know all the rules, the strategies and then be the best of players.
Many people came and visited Baha'u'llah for many reasons. Anyone who had a question received an answer beyond their expectations. Those that came to argue with Baha'u'llah were allowed into his presence, but then found they were ubable to utter a word.
To really understand what is being offered in the OP, would require people to read some history about which I speak of.
Regards Tony
Using your sports example, I will offer what I see Revelation Writing is like.
It would be a person that never pursued or practice sport, but when asked to play any sport, would already know all the rules, the strategies and then be the best of players.
Many people came and visited Baha'u'llah for many reasons. Anyone who had a question received an answer beyond their expectations. Those that came to argue with Baha'u'llah were allowed into his presence, but then found they were ubable to utter a word.
To really understand what is being offered in the OP, would require people to read some history about which I speak of.
Regards Tony
I will stay with proof for this OP. Thanks for calling by. There is no doubt it is a proof and many many records have been left for the benefit.
Consider that If we discount this recorded history, then we can throw all historical records out the windows and forget the subject at all.
Also those opposed to Baha'u'llah, used to warn people from seeing Baha'u'llah as some sorcery was at play and they would be captured under His spell. Thus there is a High probability that something special was happening at this time.
Regards Tony
This is a discussion about Revelation and the process by which it comes and the recording of it. The ability of a Messenger to provide a Spontanious answer to any question put to them.
Anyone can include Muhammad, Jesus, Krishna, the Buddha or any Messenger if you would.like to. I see they all were capable of the same feats of knowledge.
I am using Baha'u'llah because I know many, many historical eyewitness accounts from both beleiver and non-believers are available.
I have not pursued as to how many such accounts are available for other Messengers.
Regards Tony
There are many records available. As the future unfolds and people change from war to actually getting along with each other and then choose to pursue these subjects, much more evidence will come to light.
At this time, Iran is a dangerous place to mention Baha'i and go research many more alternative sources. That day will come, when that will be a safe and viable option.
Some of the greatest scholars of the Baha'i Faith were either enemies of the faith or were sent to Baha'u'llah from the Authorities who when subsequently in the presence of Baha’u’llah were stuck dumb. They have left their stories and impressions. I can not see any better evidence than those stories as they are the ones that had that experience and have described it for us.
Regards Tony
Pudding
Well-Known Member
In some period, some people use violence to spread their religions. After generations of generations of indoctrination, today here is where we are.
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Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
It was the OP that tried to sue the supposed perfection of the works tp prove they were "Messengers of Gods". What errors do is to refute the OP's claim. They do not refute that they were Messengers of God.
But what needs to be noted to be able to claim that someone is a Messenger of God puts a heavy burden of proof on the person making that claim. I have never seen anyone come close.
Meanwhile, the fact that so many Gurus need defending is evidence against them. I would think that someone that was a Messenger of God would need no defense.
Who have you looked at, what would you offer is a proof?
This OP is suggesting we could look at the Revelation itself. It is from an all knowing source, is there any way to consider what is an all knowing source?
Regards Tony
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
I am not the one making claims. I have no need to support any claims as of yet.
From what I have seen there is no all knowing source. I won't go so far as to claim that one exists, but if someone else does then I have no problem pointing out that they need to support that claim.
rational experiences
Veteran Member
Basic natural one species life observation.
Created creation exists exact in space before humans. Space said natural human owns everything exact no argument allowed.
It's not named.
O planet mass exact in space natural.
Heavens in space natural not named.
Natural science status by natural human one species no names and no practiced science. Hence there is also no human argument.
Basic human law advice.
One human lives as two types. One type the man theories sciences beginnings.
Where is science?
Not existent not manifested not practiced.
Science came into existent by earth products converted into the machine
Humans satanic warning.
Did you human scientist own why any type of earth mass existed naturally
True answer no they didn't.
Human man theist thinker owned no reason to claim how he got created. As he existed exact.
Owned a humans eternal life meaning said no sickness no aging.
However died.
So if a cell never leaves it's origin how can a human die?
The human answer as the eternal body sent us away out of its form it began release by type body in natural order then ended separation as the human.
So we were given presence yet survival span only.
As we aren't the presence mass of earth or heavens body.
Ask about man's memory of his built manifested machine. Then reaction.
What does conscious human old human father's manifested water life tell you? That manifests when frozen water mass ice saviour gets put back?
The message. My machines caused the origin owned eternal human biological life removal. As I introduced human life cell sacrifice sickness old age by satanic science.
A human man's own scientific confession. His advice his machines presence had already removed it.
So when no nuclear evil satanic machine science is practiced by human Satanists versus natural life presence with gods earth mass..... life returns healed. Man receives returned living life cell advice. Consciousness evolved.
He becomes a storyteller. It doesn't make him special as you are human warned don't human self idolise. Yet you do. All life one human species equal.
Human cult condition doesn't listen to its own teaching.
So does father's origin human spiritual memories own his truth. Origin human? Yes. Memories that manifest.
So you get to learn and know about father. Just as the documentation says as you are allowed to heal by no machine science status.
Machine owners liars.
As biology cell remains present you don't get sick and we stop aging rapidly.
As heavens cools water gets kept on ground.
The warning human only messages. For humans as humans via old human life records held in waters oxygenated mass life returned. Biology consciousness returns healed advice.
Versus man's choice machine destroyer satanic science. Killing us as biology by terms known recorded biologies life sacrifice upon sciences satanic agreement of known causes.
Pretty basic human advice for human cult liar group behaviour as group control and group false preaching teaching. Human only statuses.
Natural human each one self healed returned advised conscious versus cult group coercive bully behaviour. Human.
Why the teaching advice is always a natural humans advice first.
As guess what lying human family everyone is a natural human first. Science was only a choice of human versus presence of gods mass
Created creation exists exact in space before humans. Space said natural human owns everything exact no argument allowed.
It's not named.
O planet mass exact in space natural.
Heavens in space natural not named.
Natural science status by natural human one species no names and no practiced science. Hence there is also no human argument.
Basic human law advice.
One human lives as two types. One type the man theories sciences beginnings.
Where is science?
Not existent not manifested not practiced.
Science came into existent by earth products converted into the machine
Humans satanic warning.
Did you human scientist own why any type of earth mass existed naturally
True answer no they didn't.
Human man theist thinker owned no reason to claim how he got created. As he existed exact.
Owned a humans eternal life meaning said no sickness no aging.
However died.
So if a cell never leaves it's origin how can a human die?
The human answer as the eternal body sent us away out of its form it began release by type body in natural order then ended separation as the human.
So we were given presence yet survival span only.
As we aren't the presence mass of earth or heavens body.
Ask about man's memory of his built manifested machine. Then reaction.
What does conscious human old human father's manifested water life tell you? That manifests when frozen water mass ice saviour gets put back?
The message. My machines caused the origin owned eternal human biological life removal. As I introduced human life cell sacrifice sickness old age by satanic science.
A human man's own scientific confession. His advice his machines presence had already removed it.
So when no nuclear evil satanic machine science is practiced by human Satanists versus natural life presence with gods earth mass..... life returns healed. Man receives returned living life cell advice. Consciousness evolved.
He becomes a storyteller. It doesn't make him special as you are human warned don't human self idolise. Yet you do. All life one human species equal.
Human cult condition doesn't listen to its own teaching.
So does father's origin human spiritual memories own his truth. Origin human? Yes. Memories that manifest.
So you get to learn and know about father. Just as the documentation says as you are allowed to heal by no machine science status.
Machine owners liars.
As biology cell remains present you don't get sick and we stop aging rapidly.
As heavens cools water gets kept on ground.
The warning human only messages. For humans as humans via old human life records held in waters oxygenated mass life returned. Biology consciousness returns healed advice.
Versus man's choice machine destroyer satanic science. Killing us as biology by terms known recorded biologies life sacrifice upon sciences satanic agreement of known causes.
Pretty basic human advice for human cult liar group behaviour as group control and group false preaching teaching. Human only statuses.
Natural human each one self healed returned advised conscious versus cult group coercive bully behaviour. Human.
Why the teaching advice is always a natural humans advice first.
As guess what lying human family everyone is a natural human first. Science was only a choice of human versus presence of gods mass
Thus this discussion. There are many eyewitnesses accounts of what and how Baha'ullah offered Revelations, and one of those is the ability to answer any questions no matter how difficult the subject matter, spontanious and with no references needed. In fact Baha'u'llah could do this answering other verbal questions, while revealing tablets himself.
The historical records are available, and I could post one or two as an example.
I am happy to agree to disagree.
Regards Tony
firedragon
Veteran Member
Alright Alright Tony. Its not my place to tell you any of this. So I'm sorry I apologise.
In my view one should be rightly skeptical about the entire concept of prophets from God when God is incapable or unwilling to make it so that the entire revelation event happens far far away from the glare of independent and unbiased reporting.
Perhaps the actual prophet of God was Vivekananda who delivered his revelatory speeches in the full glare of the media in the 1st Parliament of World Religions and catalyzed (what has become) the globalization of Hinduism in the world?
Swami Vivekananda at the Parliament of the World's Religions - Wikipedia
No? Why not?
rational experiences
Veteran Member
The human only teaching.
Thesis...I believe a sun earth conversion then water flood involved earth god ground mass reacted. It began life in water. Says a theist.
Says a man human.
Okay.
I want to copy the theme.
Dangerous belief.
Then says..
but only the reactive portion inside my machine.
Yet advice he used biologies beginnings lied.
Was never a humans thesis why life existed. It was how a man theoried to practice machines science.
Knowing if he copied history to the nature ground we would all die.
The warning destroyer everyday man theist human satanist.
Yet he got the theory for conversion from that memory. Isn't rational.
As no human with a machine ever copied what a man theoried as a scientist. Saying what he believed began as bio life in water. It was the ground conversion he theoried.
So 0AD happened Rome got burnt. The church founded built atop satanic man's science history. The science temple. Law said no science allowed.
History says men in science as Satanists.
Natural human is natural human.
No arguments allowed as human life is equal.
Heavens cools evolves remasses its body. Man's DNA heals in life too by sex. So baby spiritual life expresses it's man's realisations.
Still happens today to lots of humans claiming a medium a psychic a guru.
Proof it occurs naturally.
Then Jesus life sacrifice returns as science was themed by suns star fall attack. Return 1000 year shroud evidence.
Atmosphere mass replaced starts being mass burnt out by star fall gained like Russia event. Old science maths advice emerges consciously in mind changed again.
Spiritual man advised as his conscious life gain by sex biology begins to be attacked. He gets phenomena advised as same old warnings.
Tries to advise Muslim cleric wanting to rebuild science temple in Jerusalem it's evil.
Was his notified humans living experience psychic spiritual human.
Sex conception is instant. Ignoring your human is equal status...don't self idolise.
Sharing information is just what it is.
Thesis...I believe a sun earth conversion then water flood involved earth god ground mass reacted. It began life in water. Says a theist.
Says a man human.
Okay.
I want to copy the theme.
Dangerous belief.
Then says..
but only the reactive portion inside my machine.
Yet advice he used biologies beginnings lied.
Was never a humans thesis why life existed. It was how a man theoried to practice machines science.
Knowing if he copied history to the nature ground we would all die.
The warning destroyer everyday man theist human satanist.
Yet he got the theory for conversion from that memory. Isn't rational.
As no human with a machine ever copied what a man theoried as a scientist. Saying what he believed began as bio life in water. It was the ground conversion he theoried.
So 0AD happened Rome got burnt. The church founded built atop satanic man's science history. The science temple. Law said no science allowed.
History says men in science as Satanists.
Natural human is natural human.
No arguments allowed as human life is equal.
Heavens cools evolves remasses its body. Man's DNA heals in life too by sex. So baby spiritual life expresses it's man's realisations.
Still happens today to lots of humans claiming a medium a psychic a guru.
Proof it occurs naturally.
Then Jesus life sacrifice returns as science was themed by suns star fall attack. Return 1000 year shroud evidence.
Atmosphere mass replaced starts being mass burnt out by star fall gained like Russia event. Old science maths advice emerges consciously in mind changed again.
Spiritual man advised as his conscious life gain by sex biology begins to be attacked. He gets phenomena advised as same old warnings.
Tries to advise Muslim cleric wanting to rebuild science temple in Jerusalem it's evil.
Was his notified humans living experience psychic spiritual human.
Sex conception is instant. Ignoring your human is equal status...don't self idolise.
Sharing information is just what it is.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Do you understand that people that believe in religious ideas tend to be extremely bad witnesses? So it sounds like there are no good witnesses to these supposed events.