Richard Dawkins Facepalms at Deepak Chopra

[godnotgod]

It seems that what you are describing ultimately equates to no reality, no consciouness, no bliss, no anything.

On the contrary, it is Absolute Joy, Ultimate Reality, and Pure Consciousness, as compared to temporal Relative Joy/Suffering which is what 'interaction' is about.


But returning to the background against which 'interaction' occurs, in the following figure/ground example, the figure is a moving element against a non-moving field. However, without the field, the figure would be non-existent. So ground is fundamental to figure; and what does not change (ie The Changeless) is fundamental to change, or, as you put it, 'interaction'. In reality, there are not two things here: no separate figure and ground. They are one and the same, 'figure' being a function of ground. And so, for example, in Hinduism, it is said that the world itself is, in fact, Brahman, or tat tvam asi; (thou art That).

 

[Runewolf1973]

On the contrary, it is Absolute Joy, Ultimate Reality, and Pure Consciousness, as compared to temporal Relative Joy/Suffering which is what 'interaction' is about.


But returning to the background against which 'interaction' occurs, in the following figure/ground example, the figure is a moving element against a non-moving field. However, without the field, the figure would be non-existent. So ground is fundamental to figure; and what does not change (ie The Changeless) is fundamental to change, or, as you put it, 'interaction'. In reality, there are not two things here: no separate figure and ground. They are one and the same, 'figure' being a function of ground. And so, for example, in Hinduism, it is said that the world itself is, in fact, Brahman, or tat tvam asi; (thou art That).

What ia meant by "consciousness" when you say Pure Consciousness?

 

[First Baseman]

What ia meant by "consciousness" when you say Pure Consciousness?

Further, what is meant when he says, "Absolute Joy"?

 

[Runewolf1973]

So I’ve had the chance to read through a few different examples of people who claimed to have entered into that state of Pure Consciousness/Being/Bliss by going into a deep meditative state. With that said, I have an experiment for you to try. I would like for you to sit in the middle of a room, get comfortable and go into that deep meditative state of Pure Consciousness and non-interaction. However, before you do this, I would like for you to ask a friend to be present in that room as well and he/she should have a large frying pan in one hand. I would like for you to instruct your friend to smack you over the head with the frying pan as soon as you enter that Pure Consciousness/non-interactive state. If you are truly in a non-interactive state, you should theoretically feel nothing at all. If the experiment doesn’t work, you might end up in a different state entirely.

 

[godnotgod]

Further, what is meant when he says, "Absolute Joy"?

In life, we all experience temporary joys, and subsequently, temporary sorrows. The two are inextricably intertwined one with the other, and so are relative conditions. Absolute Joy is transcendent of both, and has no relative opposite, hence 'absolute'. It is the characteristic of the awakened mind. The unawakened mind only experiences relative joy/suffering, as it its driven by ignorance and desire. Once awakened, joy and suffering become a study. The unawakened are karma driven; the awakened are Way driven.

 

[godnotgod]

So I’ve had the chance to read through a few different examples of people who claimed to have entered into that state of Pure Consciousness/Being/Bliss by going into a deep meditative state. With that said, I have an experiment for you to try. I would like for you to sit in the middle of a room, get comfortable and go into that deep meditative state of Pure Consciousness and non-interaction. However, before you do this, I would like for you to ask a friend to be present in that room as well and he/she should have a large frying pan in one hand. I would like for you to instruct your friend to smack you over the head with the frying pan as soon as you enter that Pure Consciousness/non-interactive state. If you are truly in a non-interactive state, you should theoretically feel nothing at all. If the experiment doesn’t work, you might end up in a different state entirely.

Don't be silly. You are still resident in a reactive body.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Don't be silly. You are still resident in a reactive body.

I'm not being silly, I'm being serious. If everything is Pure Consciousness and matter and interaction are just illusions like you said, then what is your body reacting to?

 

[First Baseman]

In life, we all experience temporary joys, and subsequently, temporary sorrows. The two are inextricably intertwined one with the other, and so are relative conditions. Absolute Joy is transcendent of both, and has no relative opposite, hence 'absolute'. It is the characteristic of the awakened mind. The unawakened mind only experiences relative joy/suffering, as it its driven by ignorance and desire. Once awakened, joy and suffering become a study. The unawakened are karma driven; the awakened are Way driven.

Sounds interesting. I prefer to be Spirit driven.

 

[godnotgod]

I'm not being silly, I'm being serious. If everything is Pure Consciousness and matter and interaction are just illusions like you said, then what is your body reacting to?

An illusion of a higher calibre.

When you are dreaming, and in the dream, you are hit over the head with a frying pan, you feel dream pain; you may have dream thirst, which can be satisfied via dream water, etc. You are running from a tiger, and you awaken, panting and sweating as if you really were running.

When you awaken to a higher reality, that of this dream world, where the illusory material world does not vanish as it does in the sleep-dream world, everything seems even more real, but is revealed to be an illusion upon awakening to an even higher reality. This current level of the illusion is just on a higher level than that of those found in the sleep-dream world, whose illusions do vanish upon awakening.

Having said that, from a physics POV, when you press down on a table top, for example, you are feeling the electrical resistance of the atoms on the surface of the table pushing back, or something similar to that, as I understand it. As Einstein is reputed to have said, there is no matter as such: all matter is just energy slowed down to make it perceptible to the senses.

 

[godnotgod]

Sounds interesting. I prefer to be Spirit driven.

Why do you think it preferable to be Spirit driven over being Way driven? Do you realize that when you make a wilful choice like that, that you are being karma driven by desire?

 

[Runewolf1973]

An illusion of a higher calibre.

When you are dreaming, and in the dream, you are hit over the head with a frying pan, you feel dream pain; you may have dream thirst, which can be satisfied via dream water, etc. You are running from a tiger, and you awaken, panting and sweating as if you really were running.

When you awaken to a higher reality, that of this dream world, where the illusory material world does not vanish as it does in the sleep-dream world, everything seems even more real, but is revealed to be an illusion upon awakening to an even higher reality. This current level of the illusion is just on a higher level than that of those found in the sleep-dream world, whose illusions do vanish upon awakening.

Having said that, from a physics POV, when you press down on a table top, for example, you are feeling the electrical resistance of the atoms on the surface of the table pushing back, or something similar to that, as I understand it. As Einstein is reputed to have said, there is no matter as such: all matter is just energy slowed down to make it perceptible to the senses.

I'm thinking that if the heat death of the universe were to ever occur, it might result in energy reaching (slowing down to) a point which would basically equate to non-energy (zero point energy) and it would also likely no longer be interactive. That is the only way I could ever envision this universe being non-interactive. As far as Pure Consciousness, I simply don't buy into it. As far as I'm concerned, it is just another deep meditative state. It is a deeper form of interaction where a person might feel detatched from the physical, but ultimately there is no escaping this physical reality because it is a reality, not an illusion. The solidity of matter may be illusory or virtual yes, but the interactions which give rise to that matter are real and not illusion. Perhaps in a way those interactions are seen against a backdrop of what would otherwise be zero point energy, but it is not consciousness in any sense of the term.

 

[godnotgod]

Experiences which can be verified by others and tools. Which is HC does not fulfill. So your comparison is fallacious.

No, your assessment from your armchair 'through a glass darkly', is fallacious. HC can indeed be verified, and has been over the centuries by those willing to do the work to put a stop to the endless chatter of the monkey mind of Reason. The peerless experience of HC has been verified by many independently of each other, separated by time and space, and with consistent results.

More so this causes issues with perception. If a person can not feel hot or cold then their experience of a cold lake is moot as they do not have the senses, perception, required for such an experience. Your example is no more than being chained in the cave talking about the shadows (HC) you see with your fellow prisoners. Again you cherry pick when and where HC is subject to reason and logic.

Except that the majority of humans can indeed verify that the water is cold, without a doubt.

The very idea of a higher consciousness is a belief. The method of accessing this is dogma and doctrine since methods are instruction... You have no evidence thus I can dismiss your claims due to lack of evidence. If it can not be validate by reason you have a unjustified belief, which I can also dismiss.

Unfortunately, you are sadly mistaken. You have yet to show me exactly what the belief, doctrine, and/or dogma of HC is. What you fail to understand is that the method of instruction is not the actual experience of HC. The method is simply to create a more conducive pathway to the actual experience. The reason you cannot dismiss my claim is because you have been told that the door is wide open to you, without restriction, to go see for yourself. Because the prisoners in the cave refuse to go see for themselves, they will never see the Sun. I repeat, ad nauseum: there is no factual evidence to show you. Period. Either you go to the window or stay in the dark, churning your rational mind away, demanding factual evidence for something that leaves no trace, just as a perfect mirror reflects perfectly what it sees, yet retains no image. It is as simple as that.

Yes he does but he idea in unified field and consciousness is rejected by his peers. Just because someone has credentials does not mean they are not a crackpot especially pushing ideas their own peers reject. It is your mistake in asumming science should entertain as irrational, illogical, woo thinking as valid. Scientists would be spending more time rejecting nonsense from every crackpot with a marker and cardboard sign then progressing and resolving what it is meant to address. You confuse science with philosophy and religion which is expected since Deepak teaches all 3 are the same.

What Chopra is teaching is that Reality is singular and seamless, and the 3 approaches to it are just different methods, none of which are part of the actual experience of HC. It is you who are confused, I am afraid, since you are still seeing HC in terms of the rational, conceptual mind, a view which is completely erroneous. If you want to hear the music, you must first let go of any idea of what the music must sound like. You still cling to ideas and concepts about Reality. Science, religion, and philosophy are like that.

What you also fail to see, is the revolution occurring in the sciences, all around the world, which is seeing the old materialist paradigm for what it is: archaic and crumbling. Hagelin, as well as Chopra, Penrose, Capra, Goswami, et all, are all mavericks and geniuses on the cutting edge of the new revolution in consciousness. Get on the boat or become fossilized with all the other credentialed authorities who cling to a dead and dying paradigm.

Open up your mind!

You also just contradicted yourself. If HC is not subject to reason and logic then Hagelin can not be used as a support as he uses both.... So you are cherry picking when HC is subject to reason and logic only when it supports your argument.

The actual experience of HC is indeed beyond the reaches of Reason. Hagelin says so when he quotes one of the Yoga sutras by Patanjali, which says: 'yoga is the complete cessation of the thinking mind'. Yoga means union, and that is exactly what the experience of HC is: the merging of the observer with the observed. When the thinking mind is brought to a complete halt, it is then that union with everything that is the Universe is already the case.

Mystics many times use Reason simply as a device to point to HC, though it is not HC itself. Mystics have nothing against science, reason, or logic. We use it all the time, but we do not consider these methods capable of showing us what the true nature of Reality is. All they can do is to nibble around its edges, providing facts and data, which, of course, are useful, but fail to get to the heart of the matter.

Sophistry. "Making tea is the continuity of spiritual belonging"

You don't get it, do you?

You see, even though we call it 'Higher Consciousness', the fact of the matter is that THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE ORDINARY WORLD AND THE MIRACULOUS WORLD.

Put another way: 'The spirituality found in Zen is not to think about God while peeling the potatoes; it is simply to peel the potatoes'

I understand immediately and perfectly what Chopra is saying about making tea. Sorry you miss this very beautiful point. Pity.

Then you can provide studies proving this. After all if it is so easy then it can be shown in a controlled study group.

Man, are you ever lost!

Look, if you really, seriously, and sincerely want to verify what I am saying, you will have to do it on your own, although a teacher can provide the right queues you may miss, and end up wasting a lot of precious time without one, or the proper instruction. However, judging from how hardened your responses are, your first obstacle is your own mind and its indoctrination via Reason, Logic, and Analysis. Phd's come to Zen centers around the country determined to 'figure it all out' intellectually, and end up a sobbing heap on their meditation mats. That is their beginning for readiness.

No its sophistry so you can avoid any burden of proof you have for your claim

I guess you must be hard of hearing? You keep making me repeat the following:

HC is not based upon beliefs, concepts, ideas, doctrines, dogma, etc or any other product of the thinking mind. Sophistry is also one of those products. HC is an inner experience outside all of these. Got that?

Did so above

Where?

Provable means it is subject to logic and reason. Your sophistry is tripping you up or you do not understand what certain words mean.

Sophistry

HC is beyond Reason, Logic, Analysis, and Sophistry. If you want to see the Sun, you must first leave the cave wall shadows of Reason, Logic, and Analysis you so tenaciously cling to. I guarantee you they will still be there once you have had a glimpse, but be warned: you will never see them the way you do now ever again.

 

[godnotgod]

I'm thinking that if the heat death of the universe were to ever occur, it might result in energy reaching (slowing down to) a point which would basically equate to non-energy (zero point energy) and it would also likely no longer be interactive. That is the only way I could ever envision this universe being non-interactive. As far as Pure Consciousness, I simply don't buy into it. As far as I'm concerned, it is just another deep meditative state. It is a deeper form of interaction where a person might feel detatched from the physical, but ultimately there is no escaping this physical reality because it is a reality, not an illusion. The solidity of matter may be illusory or virtual yes, but the interactions which give rise to that matter are real and not illusion. Perhaps in a way those interactions are seen against a backdrop of what would otherwise be zero point energy, but it is not consciousness in any sense of the term.

The effort to experience Higher Consciousness is not escape; any attempt to escape will only result in being further away than ever, since there is nothing to escape from. Freedom from anxiety associated with escape can only happen when the Self settles naturally upon itself.

You seem to get that matter is virtual in nature, but then you insist that interactions are real. But what is it that seems to be 'interacting' if not for matter as form? If the atoms which make up material forms are virtual, then the material forms you claim are interacting must also be virtual in nature.

You don't 'buy into' Pure Consciousness. That is like a fish trying to decide whether he wants to live in the sea or not. You don't have a choice, whether you think Pure Consciousness is real or not. It's just the way things are.

Even at zero point energy, the background out of which the universe emerges still remains as it has always been. Nothing has ever changed. Ever. The emergence, the Big Bang, was/is an event in Pure Consciousness, and continues to be in this timeless present moment, a Grand Illusion.

There is no such universe that can be interactive, or non-interactive.

'Since all is empty from the beginning,
Where can the dust alight?'

Hui Neng, Sixth Zen Patriarch

 

[Shad]

No, your assessment from your armchair 'through a glass darkly', is fallacious. HC can indeed be verified, and has been over the centuries by those willing to do the work to put a stop to the endless chatter of the monkey mind of Reason. The peerless experience of HC has been verified by many independently of each other, separated by time and space, and with consistent results.

If it is verified then it is subject to reason and logic as verification is grounded in both. You are cherry picking again. Many different placebo effects has been verified especially when the patient is unaware of it.

Except that the majority of humans can indeed verify that the water is cold, without a doubt.

Except the majority of humans do not verify HC. Again using reason and logic when you claim HC is beyond both. Also this is called objective correlation which can be done in a controlled study. Cherry picking again

Unfortunately, you are sadly mistaken. You have yet to show me exactly what the belief, doctrine, and/or dogma of HC is. What you fail to understand is that the method of instruction is not the actual experience of HC. The method is simply to create a more conducive pathway to the actual experience. The reason you cannot dismiss my claim is because you have been told that the door is wide open to you, without restriction, to go see for yourself. Because the prisoners in the cave refuse to go see for themselves, they will never see the Sun. I repeat, ad nauseum: there is no factual evidence to show you. Period. Either you go to the window or stay in the dark, churning your rational mind away, demanding factual evidence for something that leaves no trace, just as a perfect mirror reflects perfectly what it sees, yet retains no image. It is as simple as that.

The taught methods to access HC are doctrine and dogma as both are instructions of religion. Thus it fits HC. Doctrine and dogma are not experiences either.

I can dismiss your claim for having no objective credibility, no verified studies. It is just sophistry from the gullible and those that make money from them like Deepak. I can also do this as well. You must experience aliens by opening yourself to the intergalactic trans-medition telepathic link blah blah blah sophistry. Yet both have no evidence for HC or aliens.

What Chopra is teaching is that Reality is singular and seamless, and the 3 approaches to it are just different methods, none of which are part of the actual experience of HC. It is you who are confused, I am afraid, since you are still seeing HC in terms of the rational, conceptual mind, a view which is completely erroneous. If you want to hear the music, you must first let go of any idea of what the music must sound like. You still cling to ideas and concepts about Reality. Science, religion, and philosophy are like that.

Cherry picking again. Now HC is not bound by logic and reason yet in the above comments it was. Nonsensical woo sophistry is just what you typed above.

What you also fail to see, is the revolution occurring in the sciences, all around the world, which is seeing the old materialist paradigm for what it is: archaic and crumbling. Hagelin, as well as Chopra, Penrose, Capra, Goswami, et all, are all mavericks and geniuses on the cutting edge of the new revolution in consciousness. Get on the boat or become fossilized with all the other credentialed authorities who cling to a dead and dying paradigm.

Deepak has zero papers proving his work. Hagelin's ideas have been dismissed as new age quackery. Penrose's work has been refuted. Goswami has no published a single paper in support of his ideas. Capra's ideas are not published. Get on the boat and figure out the difference between well researched proposes backed by studies and new age woo published for the masses. You have consumed the new age books and confuse these as credible.

Open up your mind!

You have opened your mind ot the point that your brain has fallen out. Which is typical of people that consume sophistry by peddlers that can not support their ideas within the very field they based their claims on.

The actual experience of HC is indeed beyond the reaches of Reason. Hagelin says so when he quotes one of the Yoga sutras by Patanjali, which says: 'yoga is the complete cessation of the thinking mind'. Yoga means union, and that is exactly what the experience of HC is: the merging of the observer with the observed. When the thinking mind is brought to a complete halt, it is then that union with everything that is the Universe is already the case.

Hagelin's ideas have no credibility. Who he quotes is irrelevant. Also argument from authority since all your name dropping is against the consensus of their peers.

Mystics many times use Reason simply as a device to point to HC, though it is not HC itself. Mystics have nothing against science, reason, or logic. We use it all the time, but we do not consider these methods capable of showing us what the true nature of Reality is. All they can do is to nibble around its edges, providing facts and data, which, of course, are useful, but fail to get to the heart of the matter.

If reason is a tool then HC is bound by it. You are flip flopping and cherry picking again

You don't get it, do you?

You see, even though we call it 'Higher Consciousness', the fact of the matter is that THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE ORDINARY WORLD AND THE MIRACULOUS WORLD.

Put another way: 'The spirituality found in Zen is not to think about God while peeling the potatoes; it is simply to peel the potatoes'

I understand immediately and perfectly what Chopra is saying about making tea. Sorry you miss this very beautiful point. Pity.

No I get it, I dismissed it as new age sophistry. What is worse is your took my quote as a Deepak quote. If you followed the link you would of realized it was a random quote generator not a quote of Deepak. Follow the link

"It has been said by some that the thoughts and tweets of Deepak Chopra are indistinguishable from a set of profound sounding words put together in a random order, particularly the tweets tagged with "#cosmisconciousness". This site aims to test that claim! Each "quote" is generated from a list of words that can be found in Deepak Chopra's Twitter stream randomly stuck together in a sentence."

So you just demonstrated you can not figure out sophistry when you see it. More so you read meaning in to a random string of words which had no intended meaning. You read what you wanted into it. Just as Deepak does with QM and what you do with his inane babble. That must be embarrassing.You are emotional invested in HC thus you opinion is biased and you read confirmation bias as long as something confirms your bias.

Man, are you ever lost!

See above.

Look, if you really, seriously, and sincerely want to verify what I am saying, you will have to do it on your own, although a teacher can provide the right queues you may miss, and end up wasting a lot of precious time without one, or the proper instruction. However, judging from how hardened your responses are, your first obstacle is your own mind and its indoctrination via Reason, Logic, and Analysis. Phd's come to Zen centers around the country determined to 'figure it all out' intellectually, and end up a sobbing heap on their meditation mats. That is their beginning for readiness.

If you want to sincerely prove your case you would via reason. logic and evidence.. I am not obligated to entertain an unproven belief which has zero evidence. It is your burden of proof not mine. PhDs can be just as irrational as anyone else. A PhD does not mean a person's views outside their field has any value. Argument from authority and ad populum fallacy

I guess you must be hard of hearing? You keep making me repeat the following:

Repeat your sophistry all you want. Also reference you cherry picking about verification and using reason

HC is not based upon beliefs, concepts, ideas, doctrines, dogma, etc or any other product of the thinking mind. Sophistry is also one of those products. HC is an inner experience outside all of these. Got that?

Bring up sophistry when you are not fooled by a random quote generator. You can call it whatever you want. It is still a belief you hold regarding a concept which itself is a belief.

Where?

Read it again.

HC is beyond Reason, Logic, Analysis, and Sophistry. If you want to see the Sun, you must first leave the cave wall shadows of Reason, Logic, and Analysis you so tenaciously cling to. I guarantee you they will still be there once you have had a glimpse, but be warned: you will never see them the way you do now ever again.

Again you are failing to understand the analogy. As per Plato seeing the sun allows one to reason about it. However since HC is not bound by reason your comparison is fallacious. You are stuck to the wall talking about HC shadows. The whole analogy was about reason and logic but you fail to understand this point. This is due to your quoting Deepak who quote-mines whatever he wants if he can make it support his views rather than reading Plato.

Sophistry tends to undermine reason and logic since it use for fooling those that do not grasp or refuse to use it. So call your irrational belief whatever you want. Your[/quote]

 

[Runewolf1973]

The effort to experience Higher Consciousness is not escape; any attempt to escape will only result in being further away than ever, since there is nothing to escape from. Freedom from anxiety associated with escape can only happen when the Self settles naturally upon itself.

You seem to get that matter is virtual in nature, but then you insist that interactions are real. But what is it that seems to be 'interacting' if not for matter as form? If the atoms which make up material forms are virtual, then the material forms you claim are interacting must also be virtual in nature.

You don't 'buy into' Pure Consciousness. That is like a fish trying to decide whether he wants to live in the sea or not. You don't have a choice, whether you think Pure Consciousness is real or not. It's just the way things are.

Even at zero point energy, the background out of which the universe emerges still remains as it has always been. Nothing has ever changed. Ever. The emergence, the Big Bang, was/is an event in Pure Consciousness, and continues to be in this timeless present moment, a Grand Illusion.

There is no such universe that can be interactive, or non-interactive.

'Since all is empty from the beginning,
Where can the dust alight?'

Hui Neng, Sixth Zen Patriarch

ALL scientific evidence points to the interactive nature of the universe. Until there is credible evidence in support of this "Pure Consciousness" and it is accepted as fact by the whole of the scientific community, not just an isolated or eccentric few, then I will continue to dismiss your claims. As for now it remains a scientific fact....Interaction is Everything.

 

[godnotgod]

If it is verified then it is subject to reason and logic as verification is grounded in both. You are cherry picking again. Many different placebo effects has been verified especially when the patient is unaware of it.

HC cannot be the result of a placebo effect since the placebo effect is based on BELIEF, and HC is not. Belief is based on THOUGHT; HC is beyond the thinking mind, and is the direct SEEING into the nature of Reality.

Again you are failing to understand the analogy. As per Plato seeing the sun allows one to reason about it.

Yes, of course, but seeing comes first, THEN the discourse follows.

I already told you that HC is the direct experience of seeing, but can also be discussed intellectually, but the intellectual discussion is, as Zen puts it, 'a finger pointing to the moon, but is not the moon itself'. You can talk your head off about what you only think the experience is, but until you've tasted a lemon, all your talk pales in comparison. Your cocksure but faulty logic and reasoning may even go so far as to call the experience of those who have tasted of lemons a placebo effect.

 

[godnotgod]

ALL scientific evidence points to the interactive nature of the universe. Until there is credible evidence in support of this "Pure Consciousness" and it is accepted as fact by the whole of the scientific community, not just an isolated or eccentric few, then I will continue to dismiss your claims. As for now it remains a scientific fact....Interaction is Everything.

But science is the child of Reason and Logic, an extension of perception. The universe itself is not. We now know that the mass of the entire 'material' universe is virtual in nature, and if that is the case, what is it that is interacting?

Reality is empty. The true nature of Everything is Sunyata.

'form is emptiness;
emptiness is form'

It is the case that most of mankind is under the narcotic effect of the Third Level of Consciousness, that of Identification, or Waking Sleep, and so only a minority has made the monumental effort to successfully awaken from its power, the power of maya.

'All cave wall shadow evidence points to the interactive nature of reality. Until there is credible evidence in support of this 'Sun' and it is accepted as fact by the whole of the cave wall shadow community, not just an isolated or eccentric few, then I will continue to dismiss your claims. As for now it remains a cave wall shadow fact....Cave Wall Shadow Interaction is Everything. There is no Sun; there is no such thing as The Changeless.'

I am very sorry to poke a hole in your logic, but interaction cannot be Everything, since all action must be seen against a background of not-action. Otherwise, how would you determine that action, inter or otherwise, is taking place? Your attention is captured by the foreground of life and is ignoring the background against which the foreground is seen and is manifested.

 

[Runewolf1973]

But science is the child of Reason and Logic, an extension of perception. The universe itself is not. We now know that the mass of the entire 'material' universe is virtual in nature, and if that is the case, what is it that is interacting?

Reality is empty. The true nature of Everything is Sunyata.

'form is emptiness;
emptiness is form'

It is the case that most of mankind is under the narcotic effect of the Third Level of Consciousness, that of Identification, or Waking Sleep, and so only a minority has made the monumental effort to successfully awaken from its power, the power of maya.

'All cave wall shadow evidence points to the interactive nature of reality. Until there is credible evidence in support of this 'Sun' and it is accepted as fact by the whole of the cave wall shadow community, not just an isolated or eccentric few, then I will continue to dismiss your claims. As for now it remains a cave wall shadow fact....Cave Wall Shadow Interaction is Everything. There is no Sun; there is no such thing as The Changeless.'

I am very sorry to poke a hole in your logic, but interaction cannot be Everything, since all action must be seen against a background of not-action. Otherwise, how would you determine that action, inter or otherwise, is taking place? Your attention is captured by the foreground of life and is ignoring the background against which the foreground is seen and is manifested.

Interaction is just a word I choose to use because for one it does not sound "mystical" and secondly it cannot simply be sloughed off as pseudoscience. Interaction is a reality that all of us can relate to, I just take it one step further. To me the word "interaction" means exactly the same as Thich Nhat Hanh's "inter-are". We all "inter-are" and that is interaction at the most fundamental level which is NOT a duality as most might associate with that word, but as Oneness. Just because I use different words, don't think that I am somehow lacking in understanding. I am not. There are many words, but only one reality. Interaction is my word for that reality. Perhaps others would find your views more appealing if you stopped using mystical terms to describe what you are referring to and then stopped trying to associate those terms with physics. Interaction works just fine. Deepak Chopra and some of the physicists you mentioned would do well to take my adivice also.

What I mean by "interaction"...

 

[Shad]

HC cannot be the result of a placebo effect since the placebo effect is based on BELIEF, and HC is not. Belief is based on THOUGHT; HC is beyond the thinking mind, and is the direct SEEING into the nature of Reality.

The placebo effect can start a belief. Also HC is a belief thus you could be experiences the effect you ascribe to HC but it is nothing but a trick of your mind.

More HC sophistry.

Yes, of course, but seeing comes first, THEN the discourse follows.

Cherry picking again since you refuse to place HC under logic and reason when it can be used against your view. You have yet to even show you have left the cave and it's shadows. Remember you said it can not be explained by logic and reason which is a direct contradiction to what Plato said. More sophistry and fallacious reasoning.

I already told you that HC is the direct experience of seeing, but can also be discussed intellectually, but the intellectual discussion is, as Zen puts it,

'a finger pointing to the moon, but is not the moon itself'. You can talk your head off about what you only think the experience is, but until you've tasted a lemon, all your talk pales in comparison. Your cocksure but faulty logic and reasoning may even go so far as to call the experience of those who have tasted of lemons a placebo effect.

Perceptions can be fools hence why Plato pointed this out.

Bring up faulty logic when you can point out me using it rather than asserting I have. Also do so when your own arguments are not riddled with fallacious reasons.
A a lemon is real, it exists and anyone can get one without the stop at the Deepak sophistry shop. Try again son.

 

[First Baseman]

Why do you think it preferable to be Spirit driven over being Way driven? Do you realize that when you make a wilful choice like that, that you are being karma driven by desire?

Is your doctrine of karma addressed at all by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? If not, and I don't think it is, I will stick with my God over yours.