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Richard Dawkins on Jesus Dying for Sins

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
IOW, even with "faith as a set of doctrines," you still need buy-in from the general membership of the religion about what those doctrines - or at least the source of those doctrines - ought to be... otherwise, the doctrines don't get incorporated into the religion.

Thank you for further clarifying what you meant! I appear to be having a slow brain day :D (happens to the best of us!)

Although there is nothing in your above post that I neccessarily find myself in dispute with (i.e. we have sacred tradition and a Magisterium because rank-and-file Catholics decided to accept the authority of both, whereas Protestants don't understand scripture to admit of either), I'm still unclear about your initial point and wonder if we remain at cross-purposes. The fault is mine, as I seem to be having some difficulty in understanding your meaning, for which I duly apologise.

@exchemist was making the - to me - perfectly valid point that a theologically untutored layperson on the steeet would not be regarded as having an equivalent knowledge of our religious tradition than would, say, a Jesuit priest-theologian advising the Perfect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

Because we aren't a sola scriptural tradition - in a religion which accepts these things (i.e. a body of divinely inspired tradition witnessed to and developed in the writings of church fathers, doctors of the church and the Magisterium) as given postulates for membership - an untutored parishioner cannot be regarded as being just as representative in his degree of knowledge of the "sacred tradition" than a Bishop (all priests have theology degrees at seminary) or an accredited lay theologian employed by the church to advise bishops or the papacy.

In a Catholic context, laity will often get things wrong about the finer intricacies of Catholic doctrinal teaching, because the magisterial teachings and the sacred tradition which it is espousing are vast in nature, and require a certain degree of scholastic ability to read, interpret and process.

If you've read papal encyclicals, the references at the end are intimidatingly long.

For religions like this, with such a huge body of religious teachings that cannot be contained in just one "book" for easy digestibility (the Catechism is a sure norm for guidance but not anywhere close to being exhaustive), there is no equivalence in understanding between the layman on the Clapham omnibus and the Jesuit-cardinal theologian working in a dicastery at the Vatican, in terms of which of them understands the "tradition" better, because one of them has an authority over the interpretation of that tradition which the other lacks.

The layman may act, in terms of his personal involvement in faith, as a far better exponent of the church's life and the theological virtues....but he doesn't understand it better.

If you want to understand what the Catholic tradition "teaches", I'm sure the Clapham Catholic would himself direct you to his local bishop who might very well, in turn, direct you to an accredited theologian at a Catholic University or seminary who is trained in the specific area of doctrine or canon that your interested in finding out more about.

In this respect, his "modus operandi" might reflect Catholic theology in action (i.e. deference to the authority of the Magisterium and tradition as the arbiters of authority in defining his religion) but his actual knowledge of the tradition would obviously be vastly lacking in comparison to someone trained to actually analyse and "teach" it, whether in a parish church, a Jesuit University faculty or to advise the pope when writing an encyclical.

His knowledge, in this sense, would not "represent" what the church understands by it's doctrines anymore than an untutored science buff on the street is to be regarded as representative of learned scientific discussion about high-energy particle physics in peer-reviewed journals.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
On several occasions I've heard Dawkins promote teaching comparative religion in our schools. How do you feel about that?
LOL....and his motivation for doing do......? :rolleyes:

"“Comparative religion is very valuable partly because the child learns that there are lots of different religions not just the one they were brought up with. They learn they are all different and they can’t all be right, so maybe none of the are right. Critical thinking is what we need.”
Richard Dawkins: religious education is crucial for British schoolchildren
He is so sure that a study of comparative religions will turn children off religion altogether that he's all for it......what did you think?
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
LOL....and his motivation for doing do......? :rolleyes:

"“Comparative religion is very valuable partly because the child learns that there are lots of different religions not just the one they were brought up with. They learn they are all different and they can’t all be right, so maybe none of the are right. Critical thinking is what we need.”
Richard Dawkins: religious education is crucial for British schoolchildren
He is so sure that a study of comparative religions will turn children off religion altogether that he's all for it......what did you think?

I believe you are correct that that was Dawkins' intention. But what do YOU think of the idea? Forget who it came from..
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I believe you are correct that that was Dawkins' intention. But what do YOU think of the idea? Forget who it came from..

I think that idea is excellent. I see it as likely to encourage kids to think for themselves. Those naturally inclined to "freethinking" will tend to become freethinkers. Those naturally inclined to religiosity, will tend to deepen their understanding and appreciation for it.

My hunch is Dawkins (and many other people) fail to appreciate just how much comparative religious studies can make some folks more inclined towards religion than not. I studied it in university. I saw its effects on my classmates. Those effects were anything but one-sided.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Ever heared of "the bible belt"?

I have heard of it...I don't live in America. It amazes me that this area produces such fanatical red necks....

An actual understanding of reality.

What reality? Yours or mine?

Likely because your income doesn't depend on such knowledge.

For example, suppose your job is to tell oil companies where they need to go drill for oil.
If your knowledge of geology, physics, etc is framed within a YEC model of the world, then I can guarantee that you won't be succesfull.

In order to find out where oil can be found, you're going to have to have a pretty good understanding of what oil is, how it forms, how the geological column works, how a geological map must be read, etc....
Without that information, you won't know where to go look for oil.

Off course if your job is being a personal health coach, a waiter, a store clerk, an accountant,... then you won't have any problems drowning in YEC propaganda and you wouldn't feel like you have "unanswered questions" or that there are knowledge gaps that need filling.

I am not a YEC supporter at all. I don't subscribe to the 7 literal day creation because science knows that the earth and many of its species are ancient. The Bible does not argue with science fact...it argues with science fiction.....the unprovable theories. You do understand that we acknowledge adaptation as an established mechanism in nature that produces variety within all species....but what evolutionary science cannot prove is that adaptation can produce new "kinds" of creatures. If you look at their evolutionary "trees", you will see a lot of guesswork masquerading as fact. If you read the literature you will see the language of suggestion, conjecture and supposition....but no actual concrete proof that any of it ever happened. Science doesn't need "proof" you know....they just need "evidence", which can be interpreted any way they wish.

Let's not pretend as if the scientific unified field theory of biology is on the same footing as religious dogma when it comes to supporting evidence.

Let's not pretend that science can prove a single thing they claim about macro-evolution. Adaptation is only proven to occur within a specific family of related creatures (a "kind") so if you look at all their musings about what early species of creatures may have looked like, the suggestions become rather comical.

Whale evolution is one of my favorites.....What is wrong with this picture?

dc63c077c83e80721ff0f4daf2e4729d.png


What are we really looking at?

dbdv9rx-deab2849-9552-4271-a136-66fabc6c436f.jpg


dbmhibo-798e995b-9d8a-4d15-a112-f513c22abb95.jpg


Something that the first image above failed to mention or to indicate......the size of of these so called whale ancestors.....
Do you honestly believe that something the size of a small dog (a four legged land dweller) can morph itself into a gigantic aquatic creature? And what proof do they offer for this pearl of science...?

According to Berkeley's "Understanding Evolution" on whale evolution....
"These first whales, such as Pakicetus, were typical land animals. They had long skulls and large carnivorous teeth. From the outside, they don't look much like whales at all. However, their skulls — particularly in the ear region, which is surrounded by a bony wall — strongly resemble those of living whales and are unlike those of any other mammal. Often, seemingly minor features provide critical evidence to link animals that are highly specialized for their lifestyles (such as whales) with their less extreme-looking relatives."

The evolution of whales

Does that sound like convincing scientific evidence to you? They base their assumptions on an ear bone.....that "resembles" that of a whale. :facepalm:

I hear about the "mountains of evidence" for macro-evolution but when you really look at this subject, you find molehills of opinions and suggestions as to what "might have or could have" happened....not what actually did. .
If science cannot prove that evolution, on the scale they imagine, ever took place, then what they have is a belief system, just like we have.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
If people will based their answers on ignorant minds or another fallible creature, what good would come out of it?
I would attempt to answer his quote based on the Bible, which is to us [not to you or some of you] the word of God which we [again, not to you or some of you] should live daily.

If God wanted to forgive our sins, why not just forgive them?

giphy.gif


There is a process with regards to forgiveness
One of the steps on this process is repentance - the acknowledgement of guilt
Without that - what is there to forgive? Even the Israelites know this:

1 Kings 8:46-48 New International Version (NIV)
“When they sin against you—for there is no one who does not sin—and you become angry with them and give them over to their enemies, who take them captive to their own lands, far away or near; and if they have a change of heart in the land where they are held captive, and repent and plead with you in the land of their captors and say, ‘We have sinned, we have done wrong, we have acted wickedly’; and if they turn back to you with all their heart and soul in the land of their enemies who took them captive, and pray to you toward the land you gave their ancestors, toward the city you have chosen and the temple I have built for your Name;

and the Israelites would prepare their sin offering in accordance to Leviticus 4

75083-1172052.jpg


Then their sins would be forgiven. That is what is required for the Israelites in the Old Covenant times, so if you are a red neck American atheist do not worry about that because it is for the Israelites [which no one of us are] and it belongs to another time - before Jesus Christ

When Christ came, he introduced the new covenant when he said in the holy supper with his apostles:

Matthew 26:27-28 New International Version (NIV)
Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

And after Jesus Christ died, resurrected and was taken up to heaven, Christ made Paul his disciple to preach the good news to the Gentiles. Paul said to the Ephesians:

Ephesians 1:7-8 New International Version (NIV)
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us.

And Paul did not address the Ephesians who were atheists or who were pagan. Who are these people who were redeemed through the blood of Jesus Christ and who are forgiven?

George Lamsa Translation of the Pe****ta
Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore to yourselves and to all the flock, over which the Holy Spirit has appointed you overseers, to feed the church of Christ which he has purchased with his blood.

So in the Christian era, for man to be forgiven of his sins - he must repent, believe the true doctrines of the true gospel of God and baptized in the church of Christ which Jesus purchased with his blood. That is the requirement so God laid down His means for anyone to be forgiven.

Mark 16:16 New International Version (NIV)
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

That is the only way to be forgiven and be saved.


Who's God trying to impress?

The answer again is in the Bible.
Is it mankind? Who?
From the Bible:

Philippians 2:8-11 New International Version (NIV)
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Who was God trying to impress???

Presumably himself, since he is judge and jury, as well as execution victim.

Jesus Christ is a man
The Father is the only true God
Now every man sinned and is sinning.
Atheists or not; Christian or not; true or not
Everybody sins

Ecclesiastes 7:20 New International Version (NIV)
Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous,
no one who does what is right and never sins.

So if NO ONE ON EARTH is righteous and everybody is a sinner, who would be saved?
How can one be forgiven for the many sins he has committed?
What is the way God made for people to be forgiven and saved?

Ephesians 1:7-10 New International Version (NIV)
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

Simply calling to Jesus and accepting Jesus as one's personal savior won't work
That is too cheap and not scriptural
Now all of these verses are in the Bible and I hope I did not make any private interpretation
I hope I did not bring up any personal opinions
These are just some little things which I learned from the Church of Christ
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Wrong again. Dawkins is well aware that most Christians aren't creationists and has stated this many times. He has never claimed that refuting creationism refutes Christianity. What he has stated is that adding a god to the already explanatory process of natural selection just clutters up and destroys the elegance of the theory of evolution.
I agree with most of what you say.

If I were to criticize Dawkins, it would be for his lack of a sense of humor, which can on occasions make him look polite instead of understanding. The fact remains, though, that those who debate him are volunteers.

My own disagreement with Dawkins is his view, shared with the other three horsemen, that religion per se is pernicious. Personally, although I'm opposed to fundamentalism, I otherwise don't see any general harm, and often enough general good, in those with religious belief.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What reality? Yours or mine?
Reality is the world external to the self.
If you read the literature you will see the language of suggestion, conjecture and supposition....but no actual concrete proof that any of it ever happened.
Please describe the process by which cetaceans came into existence, in your view.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
The theory of evolution for a human scientist living on Planet Earth, a fused body of stone whose natural atmospheric gas body is natural by law of evolution.

God theist. Stone is holy never change it.
God theist....heavenly gases are Holy never change them.

Relativity. Natural Law.

Cosmological laws are fake.

All laws stated for male human sciences are only applied within the body of the heavenly gas protection, which owns natural laws in evolution belonging to God as a theme taught in science.

Biological sciences, Genesis/genetics harmed by humans living as humans owning human genetics in self presence.

Lying in science who displace self above and beyond God, cosmologists.

Archaeologists proved the God scientist correct....and the cosmologist wrong.

When consciousness, who cannot compare self rationally to any other living self present body owning its own body. Yet does. Was determined to be the con of science.

Consciousness as a human relative Genetic science said, you are conscious that every thing that exists supports your own living presence, so do not alter natural sequences, and natural order/history.

Science of the cosmos however said UFO cold metal radiation converted natural God stone fusion.....and wanted it converted to process change depending of the variations to their technological agreements. Which is actually diverse over natural human history.

If science tried to document a formula for what basic ideal they claimed everything by ratio belonged to....he would be formulating the removal of it.

Realization PHI was calculated to irradiate ground mass to kill of the roots of Trees that own historically the Tree of Life theme about Genetic and historical natural history.

As proof to why a male having learnt his science less of the son said, my life was sacrificed on the cross of wood. For I had literally tried to have us all ANTI UFO Mass removed.

Reasoning, the Asteroid wandering Saviour stone, had put back the gases of the original Earth gas mass natural atmosphere for natural light.

Science UFO pyramid removed the Saviour first to bring in the UFO, which returned our atmospheric mass to a hotter/eviler past when life never existed on Earth.

How he flooded the Earth in variations. As to cause floods. As to break the earth seals and plates, held historically sealed by water mass. Plates collapse, civilization drops beneath water....a flood variant.

Why the flood was the theme taught, origin of the science theory for conversion of God the stone.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Reality is the world external to the self.

My reality is how I perceive the world around me and how I process information to arrive at my worldview.
My reality may not be someone else's reality.

Please describe the process by which cetaceans came into existence, in your view.

Creation is just that. It wasn't a big magician in the sky poofing things into existence in 7 literal days.

Creation is a process and any artist will tell you that some of their works measure up to their satisfaction, but many of their works require tweaking or scrapping altogether if it doesn't quite come up to expectation. I do not see the Creator as a magician. I see him taking care with each of his creatures, experimenting with sizes and shapes and colors and being quite satisfied with what he accomplished at the end of each designated period. The creative "days" could well have been millions of years long, which means there was plenty of time to choose which creatures made the cut and which didn't.The Bible allows for the creative days to be undetermined periods of time.

I think God enjoyed the whole process immensely. At the end of each "day" he expressed satisfaction with what he had accomplished thus far. The only day that did not end with a declaration was the 7th day...and I believe that is because it hasn't ended yet.

To answer your question....I see cetaceans as a group of creatures who may or may not have been related.
dbmhibo-798e995b-9d8a-4d15-a112-f513c22abb95.jpg


I see a group of creatures who could have been trial runs for what God settled on at the end. I do not see a four legged land creature the size of a dog morphing into a whale the size of a building....or these creatures belonging to a chain of evolution. There is no proof of relationship except for some physical similarities. That is no proof of ancestry.

That is what I believe.

Science doesn't really know about the prehistoric life that has been extinct for thousands of years. They mostly guess about relationships because of those physical similarities, not because they really know a lot about them. No one was there...how could they? Its educated guesswork at best IMO.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Thank you for further clarifying what you meant! I appear to be having a slow brain day :D (happens to the best of us!)

Although there is nothing in your above post that I neccessarily find myself in dispute with (i.e. we have sacred tradition and a Magisterium because rank-and-file Catholics decided to accept the authority of both, whereas Protestants don't understand scripture to admit of either), I'm still unclear about your initial point and wonder if we remain at cross-purposes. The fault is mine, as I seem to be having some difficulty in understanding your meaning, for which I duly apologise.

@exchemist was making the - to me - perfectly valid point that a theologically untutored layperson on the steeet would not be regarded as having an equivalent knowledge of our religious tradition than would, say, a Jesuit priest-theologian advising the Perfect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

Because we aren't a sola scriptural tradition - in a religion which accepts these things (i.e. a body of divinely inspired tradition witnessed to and developed in the writings of church fathers, doctors of the church and the Magisterium) as given postulates for membership - an untutored parishioner cannot be regarded as being just as representative in his degree of knowledge of the "sacred tradition" than a Bishop (all priests have theology degrees at seminary) or an accredited lay theologian employed by the church to advise bishops or the papacy.

In a Catholic context, laity will often get things wrong about the finer intricacies of Catholic doctrinal teaching, because the magisterial teachings and the sacred tradition which it is espousing are vast in nature, and require a certain degree of scholastic ability to read, interpret and process.

If you've read papal encyclicals, the references at the end are intimidatingly long.

For religions like this, with such a huge body of religious teachings that cannot be contained in just one "book" for easy digestibility (the Catechism is a sure norm for guidance but not anywhere close to being exhaustive), there is no equivalence in understanding between the layman on the Clapham omnibus and the Jesuit-cardinal theologian working in a dicastery at the Vatican, in terms of which of them understands the "tradition" better, because one of them has an authority over the interpretation of that tradition which the other lacks.

The layman may act, in terms of his personal involvement in faith, as a far better exponent of the church's life and the theological virtues....but he doesn't understand it better.

If you want to understand what the Catholic tradition "teaches", I'm sure the Clapham Catholic would himself direct you to his local bishop who might very well, in turn, direct you to an accredited theologian at a Catholic University or seminary who is trained in the specific area of doctrine or canon that your interested in finding out more about.

In this respect, his "modus operandi" might reflect Catholic theology in action (i.e. deference to the authority of the Magisterium and tradition as the arbiters of authority in defining his religion) but his actual knowledge of the tradition would obviously be vastly lacking in comparison to someone trained to actually analyse and "teach" it, whether in a parish church, a Jesuit University faculty or to advise the pope when writing an encyclical.

His knowledge, in this sense, would not "represent" what the church understands by it's doctrines anymore than an untutored science buff on the street is to be regarded as representative of learned scientific discussion about high-energy particle physics in peer-reviewed journals.
Indeed, thanks for explaining this. It had not occurred to me that others might not appreciate it. Catholicism is of course far from alone in having a complex body of doctrine which the average person in the pew may not fully grasp.

P.S. I write, in, fact as a "Clapham Catholic" myself (thought a very doubtful one), as that happens to be where I live in London.;)
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I have heard of it...I don't live in America. It amazes me that this area produces such fanatical red necks....

You mean....... creationists? Evolution deniers?
Isn't that exactly what YOU are?

What reality? Yours or mine?

Commonly observable reality.
Independently testable reality.

I am not a YEC supporter at all

I didn't say you were. I gave an example to illustrate and drive my point home.


I don't subscribe to the 7 literal day creation because science knows that the earth and many of its species are ancient. The Bible does not argue with science fact...it argues with science fiction....
What the bible says is 110% irrelevant to science.

You do understand that we acknowledge adaptation as an established mechanism in nature that produces variety within all species....

Which results in speciation, which is evolution.

but what evolutionary science cannot prove is that adaptation can produce new "kinds" of creatures.

Ever heared of the "law of monophy"?
It's a law of evolution that says evolution doesn't permit one thing to turn into a fundamentally different thing because every thing that evolves is always just a modified version of what its ancestry is.

Under evolution, you can NOT outgrow your ancestry.

In other words: if we would observe a change in "kind", then evolution theory would be falsified.

So it's kind of absurd to say that evolution cannot prove that which it says can't even happen, happens.

This is why you should first educate yourself properly on a scientific theory before insisting on arguing against it.

Speciation is always a vertical process. Meaning that every new species is always a sub-species of its ancestral species. ie, the same "kind".

Dogs are a kind of wolf.
Wolves are a kind of canine.
Canines are a kind of mammal.

Humans are a kind of ape.
Apes are a kind of primate.
Primates are a kind of mammal.

Mammals are a kind of tetrapods.
Tetrapods are a kind of vertebrate.
Vertebrates are a kind of eukaryotes.
etc

In the 3.8 billion years of evolutionary history, not a single time that a species speciate into a "different kind".


If you look at their evolutionary "trees", you will see a lot of guesswork masquerading as fact. If you read the literature you will see the language of suggestion, conjecture and supposition....

It's called scientific intellectual honesty and you'll find such language in EVERY science paper of EVERY field.

but no actual concrete proof that any of it ever happened. Science doesn't need "proof" you know....they just need "evidence", which can be interpreted any way they wish.

Nope.
Evidence needs to fit the predictions of the model in question.
You cannot "interprete" it "any way you wish". Well.. at least not while remaining intellectually honest and independently verifiable.


Let's not pretend that science can prove a single thing they claim about macro-evolution.

Macro-evolution: evolutionary change that occurse at the species level or above.

Speciation is an observed fact.
Macro-evolution occurs, factually.


Adaptation is only proven to occur within a specific family of related creatures (a "kind")

Yes. It is the evolutionary law of monophy.
Species never outgrow their ancestry.

Whale evolution is one of my favorites.....What is wrong with this picture?

dc63c077c83e80721ff0f4daf2e4729d.png

The only thing wrong here, is your strawman version / ignorance of both the theory as well as the evidence for it.

If you aren't even aware of a basic thing like the law of monophy, then sorry but you have nothing of any value to add here. That's like trying to argue with astronomers and physicists while not being aware of relativity. Or Newton's laws of motion.

That you don't know that this is called "the law of monophy" is one thing, but the idea of not being able to outgrow your ancestry is extremely basic.

Not being aware of that, and even pretending as if evolution theory posits the exact opposite of this law, is really embarassing if you are going to pretend that you know enough about this subject that you can argue against it.

What are we really looking at?

dbdv9rx-deab2849-9552-4271-a136-66fabc6c436f.jpg


dbmhibo-798e995b-9d8a-4d15-a112-f513c22abb95.jpg


Something that the first image above failed to mention or to indicate......the size of of these so called whale ancestors.....

"failed to mention"?
Why? Because you happened to look for a picture where the different species are displayed in the same size, for clarity concerning the anatomical comparision of bone structure?

You found the other picture with the proportions illustrated and I'm sure you didn't have to look in dark corners of the internet to find it, so clearly it's not a secret.

You're grasping at straws again.

Do you honestly believe that something the size of a small dog (a four legged land dweller) can morph itself into a gigantic aquatic creature? And what proof do they offer for this pearl of science...?

My "belief" is not required to accept evidence. The evidence being comparative anatomy.
I'm sure you don't even realise that several of these extinct species fossils have been found by prediction.

According to Berkeley's "Understanding Evolution" on whale evolution....
"These first whales, such as Pakicetus, were typical land animals. They had long skulls and large carnivorous teeth. From the outside, they don't look much like whales at all. However, their skulls — particularly in the ear region, which is surrounded by a bony wall — strongly resemble those of living whales and are unlike those of any other mammal. Often, seemingly minor features provide critical evidence to link animals that are highly specialized for their lifestyles (such as whales) with their less extreme-looking relatives."

The evolution of whales

Does that sound like convincing scientific evidence to you?

It is, if you are aware of the law of monophy.
But you've already made it clear that you aren't.

Maybe you should study up before continuing. It will save you from further embarassment.


I hear about the "mountains of evidence" for macro-evolution but when you really look at this subject, you find molehills of opinions and suggestions as to what "might have or could have" happened....not what actually did. .

Perhaps that is the case because you look into this subject as a willfull ignoramus unwilling to learn what the subject is really all about?

If science cannot prove that evolution, on the scale they imagine, ever took place, then what they have is a belief system, just like we have.

Classic. Trying to drag down science to your level of make-belief and even admitting to it............... :rolleyes:


Do yourself a favour and actually inform yourself on what evolution really states.
Literally every single one of your objections in this post was rooted in sheer ignorance.

You are not arguing against evolution theory. You are arguing against a strawmanned warped version thereof. And because you don't know what the theory really says, you also don't understand how the evidence supports it. Kind of hard to recognise evidence in support of a certain model, if you have no working knowledge of said model......................
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
My reality is how I perceive the world around me and how I process information to arrive at my worldview.
My reality may not be someone else's reality.[/i] There's only one reality. How your see it is your own affair.
Creation is just that. It wasn't a big magician in the sky poofing things into existence in 7 literal days.
But, you say, it was nonetheless a big magician in the sky poofing things into existence, yes?
I do not see the Creator as a magician.
The alternative would be superscientist, wouldn't it?

Artists are good at imagining and shaping, but not at creating stars, planets, moons, the earth, archaea, microorganisms, plants, fish, molluscs, arthropods, amphibians, reptiles, mammals, primates or humans.

That can be done either by natural processes, of which one candidate, evolution, overwhelms the alternatives.

Or it can be done by wishing, which is to say, magic, the alteration of reality independently of the rules of nature. You'll be well aware that saying "God did it" explains nothing unless you also explain how, exactly, God did it.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Calcium is the most plentiful mineral in the human body. Almost all of it — 99% — is stored in the skeleton, where it serves to maintain healthy bones and teeth.

Science, is a human owned study and observation process, whilst living on a planet of stone inside of a history that was taught to be from God.

Meaning O planet body of stone, a philosophy history.

The word of God was stated to belong to human male brothers who agreed on the use and application of words to own descriptions of everything they studied and imposed naming to. Yet the human self claims I am the highest in evolution and the most intelligent and important.

For in the claim of self, human is the status I own and I will....and no other body can argue.

The theme, science was to apply what was quantified to be Satanism, Sun conditions, burning and carbonising the Nature.

A study of from the Garden Nature states, that Trees own a longer life force than what a human lives.

Yet a human in science has to be enabled to state that each body is present, formed so is ended.

Therefore the Bible never claimed I am creating, the Bible stated "is created".

For you cannot give a name titled status unless the body has ended, as formed and owned self in presence of self identity.

Mutated bodies can live at the same time as healthy bodies.

Which would be the first question of a theist.

When a Nature lives in an environment of natural cause...and oxygen and water/microbes the presence that enables the survival of nature in a lit gas burning atmosphere. Where would science place the sacrifice first?

Cold gases, natural history burning.

The spirit of the stone planet therefore owns O presence and its heavenly body owns a sacrifice, as a science quote.

The Nature of man however is spirit....and the theme says that when life is sacrificed, given its death, the image of self recognition of that sacrifice remains with God in the heavenly gases. Where Jesus is seen in Image.

Now when you are deceased a high percentage of humans believe that they own a pre existing spirit in eternal, that they meet upon their human physical death.

And that status is named the eternal.

Then a human in science can look at species and claim a huge variable to the lived age. You would have to question why.

When the human life dies it leaves with the stone its own calcium formed spirit, the spirit body of sacrifice. For the flesh disappears and bones get left with Earth.

And the human spiritual quote is my Father sacrificed my life knowingly.

And the only Father a human baby owns is a human being male adult, who is in the description a scientist.

To prove that life did in fact come out as an already owned and formed spiritual body, would be to tell a story that involved your own self.

And how one brother changed the life body of the other brother.

Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 4 - New International Version

The science quotes is about table.

And science knows in a male life that the Table of elements is applied by his human reasoning.

CA in science the symbol for calcium, so calcium IN was CA IN.

And the story quotes, that the crop circle was formed, and his brother spirit self died.

For the theme Garden of Eden is relative to God science spiritually as a man/male spiritual conscious ideal.

And all argument is based on the history males, science titles as referenced by a human male psyche and self presence about all things.

Eden is also end by value E.

In old science symbolism the letter E was a 5th value, as yodh the hand is 5.

God in science symbolism was given a value 10 and the half value 5.

Science as a machination ground fission reaction began and ended the presence of life. And life was given 100 years of life as value C as that END.

Genesis 4. Genesis also says sign see.
+ the cross began as a science quote, to factor Numbers into mass to then minus the conditions in a reaction.

Origin Earth did not own seasons, they were introduced after the Ice Age.

Ice as an Earth condition therefore enabled what gas mass was burning to not support seasons to acquire the seasons....and it was only water frozen.

The condition, atmospheric body re massed as colder gases the only change.

Gases burning own the presence of light. Water and oxygen the life support.

1 John 4:4 4You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.

The theme is about God the stone and also God the greater spirit, from which we came from, out of the eternal.

Which was explained as O eternal sounds forming its origin release, its bursting/burning. Evolution of gas mass replacing mass that had been removed, back into space and filled space. Placing creation back in contact with the eternal God, the place from which God in the Universe had been released.

As the Greater God presence, what we named as the eternal.

Humans with spiritual expressed phenomena, have existed on Earth for as long as a human could tell stories, and it is about time that it is accepted.

When humanity face their own truth, they would realize that the only reasons that humans disbelieve is how other humans act and behave and are supported to do such great harm, when they espouse spirituality.

For why would you want to believe it real, when those who claim that they are spiritual act perversely and with human coercive mis treatment of others?

As a little child I saw the hypocrisy, so I said to my own self, if we did come from spirit then I would find out by my own volition. And I did. Now if I wanted to learn science, I know that I had a reasonable intellect to achieve scientific wisdom, I simply chose not to.

Science claims that to observe and apply research is the basis of their wisdom.

I applied the exact same theme about spirit.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
I came across this quote by Richard Dawkins today, and it is one of the most brilliant and concise illustrations of the absurdity of Christianity that I've seen. Christians, how would you respond to this?

If God wanted to forgive our sins, why not just forgive them? Who's God trying to impress? Presumably himself, since he is judge and jury, as well as execution victim.

-Richard Dawkins
I think the point Dawkins and many others don’t get is that God’s goal goes beyond forgiveness and ultimately includes putting all sin to death. There will be no still in the new heaven and new earth God has in store.

Mere forgiveness while turning a blind eye to the harmful damage of sin is not justice or love. Jesus paid for the sins of the world and has put sin to death for all who accept His payment of their behalf. Otherwise it’s face the death penalty for one’s own sins, because again death is the destination of sin.
 

wandering peacefully

Which way to the woods?
The most obvious should be that Jesus was God incarnate, meaning that God lowered himself infinitely to our level, became one of us in solidarity, and endured agonizing torture and death
This is something I never could understand. Why would God kill himself?
 

Segev Moran

Well-Known Member
I came across this quote by Richard Dawkins today, and it is one of the most brilliant and concise illustrations of the absurdity of Christianity that I've seen. Christians, how would you respond to this?

If God wanted to forgive our sins, why not just forgive them? Who's God trying to impress? Presumably himself, since he is judge and jury, as well as execution victim.

-Richard Dawkins
I really like Dawkins.
But i bet you he doesn't understand even one commandment.
He might understand, but he doesn't really.
If he would, he would have made much better arguments.
A brilliant man though :)
 

Segev Moran

Well-Known Member
I came across this quote by Richard Dawkins today, and it is one of the most brilliant and concise illustrations of the absurdity of Christianity that I've seen. Christians, how would you respond to this?

If God wanted to forgive our sins, why not just forgive them? Who's God trying to impress? Presumably himself, since he is judge and jury, as well as execution victim.

-Richard Dawkins
BTW,
In a nut shell, God already forgave us in day 1 of our existence.
And "he" is far from being judge and jury let alone executioner. it is the "law maker". its just that the law takes ages to learn and even longer to practice.
But i can assure you it can be described in 10 short sentences ;)
 
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