• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Rittenhouse, the proof is in the pudding....

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
So you're saying it was mutual combat? That may have been the case. However, considering the circumstances and why these people were in the middle of a civil disturbance in the first place, then maybe it was a case of "pawn vs. pawn." That doesn't make Rittenhouse innocent, though. He chose to go up there with a weapon and join the fray.

He may ultimately be found not guilty in this particular court case. The prosecution might have gotten him on lesser charges, but I don't know for sure.

The presence of a challenge does not justify the multiple attack.
The fact that the boy was armed can be considered a challenge towards the attackers.
But since we all have free will, we can ignore challenges.

Rittenhouse was running away at the speed of light.
It means that he wanted to avoid the challenge.
He has zero responsibility.
But they chased him anyway.
And he fell down. And he was being attacked.
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
The commies are coming to take our rights!!!! What a load of hysterical nonsense.

The whole sad episode shows the stupidity of allowing armed people to wander the streets and proves 2 wrongs don't make a right.
They call your comment "DENIAL of the facts".
The real criminals were BLM and ANTIFA.
Anyone not realising that, must be totally deaf to obvious facts.
Defending yourself when attacked 3 times, remains 3 acts of self defence.
So, do you agree with the Biden claim that this man was a white supremacist?
That he came to shoot inocent people?
Please elaborate!
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
And this morning's ignorance prize goes to..............:rolleyes:

The expression is: "The proof of the pudding is in the eating."

"The proof is in the pudding" is quite meaningless.
And this morning's ignorance prize goes to..............:rolleyes:
The person who thought I used his pudding expression!
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
I caught that, too.

@SA Huguenot - the actual saying means something like "a person or thing's character is demonstrated in its outcome."

If we applied the wisdom of that saying to the Rittenhouse case, we would say that "the eating" (3 people shot, 2 fatally) is the proof of "the pudding" (Rittenhouse's motives for showing up armed at that protest).
You got it!
Him shooting these guys, shows where the US is going.
Well done mate!
 

Aštra’el

Aštara, Blade of Aštoreth
So you're saying it was mutual combat? That may have been the case.

Stevicus. That is not at all what I was saying. How can it be “mutual combat” if it was one man being attacked by a rioting mob?

“Mutual combat, a term commonly used in United States courts, occurs when two individuals intentionally and consensually engage in a fair fight, while not hurting bystanders or damaging property.”
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
That's a weird way to describe people trying to apprehend a murderer at great risk to themselves.
Two People, Murderer?
Someone attempting to shoot someone who got shot instead, is called the unfortunate attemted murderer killed by a victim.
Did you see the full video?
Did you see how he was twice attacked by someone attempting to shoot him?
How another man attacked him with a scateboard?
He did not shoot anyone else, eccept his assailents!

Not like BLM and ANTIFA activist, Reinoehl who killed Aaron J. Danielson, from Patriot Prayer in cold blood, when he was unarmed.
Remember how the leftist media tried to make Reinoehl out as non BLM?
Well, from where I am standing, the USA have huge problems with BLM and Antifa. They are terrorists, killers, and the Dem leaders never hesetated to use them to create chaos, and with your leftist media, tried to blame the Conservatists.

Anyhow, the evidence from the state witnesses already shows that Rittenhouse should be given a medal for his bravery and military skils.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
The key principle is the proportion between offence and defense.
Chauvin choked a man to death. An unarmed inoffensive man. That is not even defense. That is abuse of force. Manslaughter.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The presence of a challenge does not justify the multiple attack.
The fact that the boy was armed can be considered a challenge towards the attackers.
But since we all have free will, we can ignore challenges.

Rittenhouse was running away at the speed of light.
It means that he wanted to avoid the challenge.
He has zero responsibility.
But they chased him anyway.
And he fell down. And he was being attacked.

Well, as I said, he may very well be found not guilty of the charges against him. But he might still be under scrutiny by people wondering what he was doing there in the first place. What were they all doing there, feeling some compulsion to start fighting each other? Some were there to protest police brutality (which happened in another city), while some were there ostensibly to support the police and protect private property, which was Rittenhouse's excuse.

In any case, the battle lines had already been drawn before the involved parties even arrived on the scene. They found themselves on opposite sides in a larger dispute which they did not personally cause, but nevertheless got involved anyway.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Well, as I said, he may very well be found not guilty of the charges against him. But he might still be under scrutiny by people wondering what he was doing there in the first place. What were they all doing there, feeling some compulsion to start fighting each other? Some were there to protest police brutality (which happened in another city), while some were there ostensibly to support the police and protect private property, which was Rittenhouse's excuse.
That's for sure.:)
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
EXPLAINER: Did state's own witnesses hurt Rittenhouse case? (apnews.com)

KENOSHA, Wis. (AP) — Prosecutors wrapped up more than a week of testimony at Kyle Rittenhouse’s homicide trial after calling more than a dozen witnesses — some appearing to help the defense more than the prosecution.

The onus was on prosecutors to counter Rittenhouse’s self-defense claim in shooting dead two men and wounding a third at a protest in Kenosha last year following the shooting of Jacob Blake, who is Black, by a white police officer. The defense team began their case on Tuesday.

Rittenhouse, then 17, fatally shot Joseph Rosenbaum at a car lot. After running from that scene, he shot and killed Anthony Huber and wounded Gaige Grosskreutz.

Legal experts agreed prosecutors had the bigger challenge going in, and some said they didn’t come close to offering the kind of testimony sure to persuade jurors.

“The case has gone very badly for the prosecution,” said Phil Turner, a former federal prosecutor who has followed the trial through the media.

Prosecutors endeavored to show Rittenhouse’s fears for his life on the night of Aug. 25, 2020, weren’t justified. But successive state witnesses, Turner and other legal experts said, seemed to buttress the defense assertion that Rittenhouse had good reason to be afraid.

But not everyone believes the state’s presentation went that badly.

Joe Lopez, a Chicago-based defense attorney, singled out witnesses who said Rosenbaum acted oddly but didn’t pose a threat as testimony helpful to the state.

“The prosecution has called witnesses that hurt their case — but sometimes you take the good with the bad,” Lopez said.

WHAT ARE SOME EXAMPLES OF STATE WITNESSES SEEMING TO AID THE DEFENSE?

Ryan Balch is a military veteran who carried an AR-style rifle that night and patrolled with Rittenhouse. He told jurors how Rosenbaum made ominous threats within earshot of Rittenhouse.

“If I catch any of you guys alone tonight I’m going to f—- kill you!” he recalled Rosenbaum shouting.

Another witness, videographer Richie McGinniss, described Rosenbaum chasing Rittenhouse and lunging for Rittenhouse’s gun. When prosecutor Thomas Binger pressed McGinniss to concede he didn’t know what Rosenbaum’s intent was, McGinniss had a pointed — and damaging — answer.

“Well,” McGinniss promptly replied, “he said, `F—- you.′ And then he reached for the weapon.”

Gal Pissetzky, another Chicago-based defense attorney, said that was vital testimony — for the defense.

“If (lunging for the gun) is not a threatening action that would put Rittenhouse in fear for his life, I am not sure what would be,” he said.

McGinniss also described Rittenhouse as appearing to do all he could to flee and even shouting “friendly, friendly, friendly” at Rosenbaum to convey he meant no harm.

Grosskreutz is another state witness who may have helped the defense case as much as the prosecution’s. He testified that he carried a loaded pistol that night and acknowledged that it was aimed at Rittenhouse when Rittenhouse shot him — although Grosskreutz maintained he didn’t intentionally aim the gun and said he wouldn’t have fired.

WERE THERE NOTABLE MISSTEPS BY PROSECUTORS?

Prosecutors made at least one unforced error that allowed evidence favorable to the defense that otherwise would have been barred.

It happened with Rosenbaum’s fiancée, Kariann Swart, on the stand when a prosecutor asked her if Rosenbaum had taken medication earlier on the day he was shot.

By asking that question, the judge ruled prosecutors opened the door for the defense to ask Swart what the medication was for. Under cross-examination, she told jurors it was for bipolar disorder and depression.

In self-defense cases, the mental health history of an alleged aggressor isn’t considered relevant unless the person who used deadly force was aware of it. Rittenhouse wasn’t.

But getting Rosenbaum’s mental health in front of jurors could add credibility to the idea that Rosenbaum was an unstable aggressor.

WHAT TESTIMONY HELPED PROSECUTORS?

Some testimony depicted Rittenhouse as reckless for attending such a volatile protest with an AR-style semi-automatic rifle, suggesting that was the primary cause of the tragic series of events.

Prosecutors also presented evidence contrasting Rittenhouse’s actions with others who came armed to the protest but never fired a shot.

Prosecutors also sought to play down Rosenbaum as a threat.

Jason Lackowski, another armed veteran in Rittenhouse’s group, told jurors he saw Rosenbaum as “a babbling idiot” and that he perceived his threats as hollow.

WHAT ELSE MAY HAVE HELPED THEIR CASE?

Prosecutors had some success in raising doubts about a key defense assertion that Rittenhouse feared his alleged attackers would wrest his rifle away and use it to shoot him.

State witness Dominick Black, a friend of Rittenhouse’s who similarly showed up with a weapon, told jurors he bought the rifle for Rittenhouse months before the shootings because Rittenhouse wasn’t old enough to own one at the time.

He testified that a gun sling Rittenhouse wore around his neck and shoulder area included a strap that anchored the gun to Rittenhouse’s body. He said that strap would have made it difficult for anyone to pry the gun away — undermining the defense claim that Rittenhouse feared losing control of his weapon.

WHAT’S THE BOTTOM LINE?

Trying to guess how jurors are perceiving evidence is hazardous in any case, perhaps more so in one as novel and politically charged as Rittenhouse’s.

The significance of evidence presented by prosecutors is often not evident until closing arguments — an opportunity for prosecutors to connect all the dots for jurors.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
It is always wrong to take sides a priori.

I never do.
In the Cucchi case, I side with Cucchi because two cops kicked an unarmed man (Cucchi) to death.

In the Cerciello Rega case, I side with Cerciello Rega, who was a cop brutally stabbed to death by a teenager.

I do not agree with those who side with the police, no matter what.
 
Last edited:

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Gee, it's so amazing that Fox has become both judge & jury. Maybe contact the court and have them cancel the trial because, after all, we all can trust Fox, right?

As for myself, I'll wait and see what the jury and judge decides. I watch numerous news outlets, and I haven't seen any of the "MSM" supposedly convict Rittenhouse.
 
Top