Ritual or Myth?

[painted wolf]

They are smarter then what we know. Who knows what they are thinking


We are vocal and social creatures, so im guessing there was something to be said for origins of rituals.

We naturally develop father figures and religious behaviour is almost instinctual.

Good point.... but ritualized behaviors are found in just about every species. Mostly as a form of non-verbal communication.

Though in vocal species, the ritualized behaviors can reinforce vocal communication.... or vice versa.

The question isn't that we develop father figures or religious behavior... but rather how we did so. I hypothesize that such behaviors predate us as a species and have their origins further back in our evolution. Most likely in the last common ancestor between ourselves and the Neanderthals.

wa do

 

[outhouse]

Good point.... but ritualized behaviors are found in just about every species. Mostly as a form of non-verbal communication.

Though in vocal species, the ritualized behaviors can reinforce vocal communication.... or vice versa.

The question isn't that we develop father figures or religious behavior... but rather how we did so. I hypothesize that such behaviors predate us as a species and have their origins further back in our evolution. Most likely in the last common ancestor between ourselves and the Neanderthals.

wa do

I agree whole hearted.

Parental love is instinctual, children have imaginary friends, we try and interpret our own dreams, imagination is a survival instinct that had to have evolved all the way down the line.

We as homo sapiens, just have larger imaginations then those before us.

 

[painted wolf]

I agree whole hearted.

Parental love is instinctual, children have imaginary friends, we try and interpret our own dreams, imagination is a survival instinct that had to have evolved all the way down the line.

We as homo sapiens, just have larger imaginations then those before us.

Well, as far as we can tell.

wa:do

 

[Ingledsva]

This strikes me as hindsight.

Religion is an attempt to sketch a coherent landscape of place, purpose, and etiology. Ritual is the evolved guidelines for navigating that terrain.

Yet, as far as we know, the burial ritual was before belief in any deity. The first burials were most likely just showing that they cared for the person. Later they started to paint them with red, which is thought to represent hope of rebirth. But even then the ritual doesn't have to have anything to do with a belief in a Deity. They saw birth and death, and they saw the plants die and come back year after year. Eventually it did get connected to religious practice.

Even elephants have been seen doing death rituals - such as covering their dead with leaves, and even putting flowers on the dead elephant's "grave."

 

[painted wolf]

Yet, as far as we know, the burial ritual was before belief in any deity. The first burials were most likely just showing that they cared for the person. Later they started to paint them with red, which is thought to represent hope of rebirth. But even then the ritual doesn't have to have anything to do with a belief in a Deity. They saw birth and death, and they saw the plants die and come back year after year. Eventually it did get connected to religious practice.

There is no way you can actually know that.

Some of it is good inference but some of it is sloppy guesswork.

Even elephants have been seen doing death rituals - such as covering their dead with leaves, and even putting flowers on the dead elephant's "grave."

I've never seen the flower behavior documented... kicking dirt on the dead is recorded. However most ritualized behavior happens as touching and mouthing the remains and preventing scavenging for a period of time... occasionally carrying bones of the long since dead.

wa:do

 

[atanu]

I recently heard someone advance the notion that religion has its origins hundreds of thousands of years ago in -- not myth -- but ritual. That is, he was persuaded that ritual is the earliest form of religion. This seems to run counter to what most of us have been told, for I think most of us have been told that religion starts with myths.

Just offhand, do you find it at all plausible that ritual might be the origin of religion? IF so, why? If not, why not?

Please note: The person who I heard advance the notion that religion has its origins in ritual, rather than myth, didn't go on to present his reasons for it. Alas! The conversation was too brief for that. So I'm unable to give his reasons here.

Can the reasons be presented at all?

I find two levels of religious scripture. One is cryptic and another more explanatory. In Hinduism, usually the cryptic variety is called Sruti -- what is/was seen by sages while in samadhi or when connected to the universal conciousness. It is taught that just as outer space, embedded with finite objects, is infinite, the chidakAsha (the mind-space), embedded by finite thoughts and corresponding objects, is infinite and hosts all knowledge. When a Seer shuts off the rational mind and abides in this infinite mind-space, without any volitional effort knowledge is presented. Such sruti are verbally transmitted and recorded.

However, further down the line, these sruti is like garbage. Then stories will build up around some cryptic sruti and myths will take birth. In that sense, Rig Veda is said to be the very code of the creation. Veda means knowledge, "To Know". To know means to create.

Now. It is said that the Yajur Veda is the primeval veda. Yajur means worship. It is said that the primeval person, prior to the subject-object division, worships himself -- there is no second. This scripture of worship of one's being is supposed to be Yajur Veda. In my understanding from the above, the rituals develop at the same time as the non-dual becomes Two. The many created then explain the seen through the myths.

Hope this is of help.

 

[Ingledsva]

Yet, as far as we know, the burial ritual was before belief in any deity. The first burials were most likely just showing that they cared for the person. Later they started to paint them with red, which is thought to represent hope of rebirth. But even then the ritual doesn't have to have anything to do with a belief in a Deity. They saw birth and death, and they saw the plants die and come back year after year. Eventually it did get connected to religious practice.

There is no way you can actually know that.

Some of it is good inference but some of it is sloppy guesswork.

LOL! You have bad reading habits. Did you miss that "as far as we know," how about "most likely," or "which is thought to represent"?????

Believe it or not, I did go to school, and this is what they teach.

Even elephants have been seen doing death rituals - such as covering their dead with leaves, and even putting flowers on the dead elephant's "grave."

I've never seen the flower behavior documented... kicking dirt on the dead is recorded. However most ritualized behavior happens as touching and mouthing the remains and preventing scavenging for a period of time... occasionally carrying bones of the long since dead.

Well it has been. I've seen it in print and on a documentary on elephants.

Just what do you think that covering/"kicking of dirt" on the dead, on the savannah is? Covering the body with dirt and grass. And as I said they have been documented looking for bright flowers and bringing them to the grave.

The reason I brought them up is because they obviously are doing a burial ritual - without god, or religious thought, just as our less intelligent ancestors did. As our brains grew and we had the capacity, and time, to ponder self and surroundings, - then ideas of perhaps something greater came to the brain.

Feelings for mate and family would have had to come along far before pondering Deity, and our place in the universe.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

Can the reasons be presented at all?

I find two levels of religious scripture. One is cryptic and another more explanatory. In Hinduism, usually the cryptic variety is called Sruti -- what is/was seen by sages while in samadhi or when connected to the universal conciousness. It is taught that just as outer space, embedded with finite objects, is infinite, the chidakAsha (the mind-space), embedded by finite thoughts and corresponding objects, is infinite and hosts all knowledge. When a Seer shuts off the rational mind and abides in this infinite mind-space, without any volitional effort knowledge is presented. Such sruti are verbally transmitted and recorded.

However, further down the line, these sruti is like garbage. Then stories will build up around some cryptic sruti and myths will take birth. In that sense, Rig Veda is said to be the very code of the creation. Veda means knowledge, "To Know". To know means to create.

Now. It is said that the Yajur Veda is the primeval veda. Yajur means worship. It is said that the primeval person, prior to the subject-object division, worships himself -- there is no second. This scripture of worship of one's being is supposed to be Yajur Veda. In my understanding from the above, the rituals develop at the same time as the non-dual becomes Two. The many created then explain the seen through the myths.

Hope this of help.

That was very interesting. Though I studied Comparative Religions, I didn't really get into Hinduism. I'll have to take another look.

 

[Orias]

Hey argue with me!

 

[Ingledsva]

Hey argue with me!

What do you want to argue about?

 

[Ingledsva]

By the way - why did you choose that lyric for your tag?

When I first glanced down at that "Pantera," I thought it was going to be a quote from Celsus who said Jesus' father was the Roman soldier Tiberius Iulius Abdes Pantera. LOL.

 

[Ingledsva]

Well I don't think it can be undermined that simply. People partake in a number of rituals each day without even knowing. The whole experience is centered around the psychodramatic effect, it is motivational as much as it is all about exercising one's own will.

Ritual is actually far from superstitious, because in the end its all about the psychodramatic effect and whatever the person is ultimately seeking.

My family was Catholic, and though I didn't believe a word the priests were saying, I absolutely loved the ancient rituals and hypnotic chants that they used. I believe that ritual is actually what drew me to the study of ancient cultures and religions.

 

[painted wolf]

LOL! You have bad reading habits. Did you miss that "as far as we know," how about "most likely," or "which is thought to represent"?????

Believe it or not, I did go to school, and this is what they teach.

All of those imply far more certainty and/or consensus than we actually have.

When it comes to discussing evidence I prefer my language to be as precise as possible.

Well it has been. I've seen it in print and on a documentary on elephants.

Source?

Just what do you think that covering/"kicking of dirt" on the dead, on the savannah is? Covering the body with dirt and grass. And as I said they have been documented looking for bright flowers and bringing them to the grave.

Except that they don't "cover the body"... at best they may provide a light dusting equivalent to what living elephants use as sunscreen.

Most of the time they do little more than touch the body with their feet... which is part of elephant social interaction. Any dust kicked up is incidental.

The reason I brought them up is because they obviously are doing a burial ritual - without god, or religious thought, just as our less intelligent ancestors did. As our brains grew and we had the capacity, and time, to ponder self and surroundings, - then ideas of perhaps something greater came to the brain.

You have no way of knowing that. It's not "obvious" it's "assumed".

You can not ascribe "religious" or lack of "religious" motive to their actions.
You can't read an elephants mind.

Feelings for mate and family would have had to come along far before pondering Deity, and our place in the universe.

Seeing as this is found in the most basal of vertebrates I would tend to agree.

wa:do

 

[painted wolf]

Hey argue with me!

You can't make me!

wa:do

 

[Orias]

By the way - why did you choose that lyric for your tag?

Because its most likely true

You can't make me!

wa:do

Aww, it was worth a try

My family was Catholic, and though I didn't believe a word the priests were saying, I absolutely loved the ancient rituals and hypnotic chants that they used. I believe that ritual is actually what drew me to the study of ancient cultures and religions.

People ritualize everyday. In my opinion its no different than brushing your teeth or taking a shower, after you do it, it makes you feel better and it motivates you to achieve whatever goal the ritual may be orientated around.

But then it seems we are not really disagreeing here are we?