Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
You have more faith in people than I do. Afterall, lots of people think Bill Gates and Trump and Musk all count as rags to riches stories.
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road-tested technology in the U.S. Patent Office allow cars and trucks to run on hydrogen extracted from tap water by electrolysis...
- Thread starter Redneck Mystic
- Start date
Trump is thought of that way?
Nah.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Ask your friend if gas and water have equal energy outputs when vaporized.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Yeah, some people actually think that. It's justbas absurd as Gates and Musk, but people believe it.
Yes, and part of the reason for that earning potential is because it's possible to monopolize the supply and production.
How much energy goes into oil production?
I don't know what the rate of expenditure versus return would be producing hydrogen fuel cells with electricity generated by conventional means, but unless you do we can't really compare the practicality of hydrogen fuel cell production versus oil production.
What I think is key now is the fact that somebody creating hydrogen in his garage with few solar panels on his roof would be good to go.
It wouldn't be practical everywhere but in places with enough sunshine year round It would be possible to run these vehicles with almost no environmental impact as far as fuel production goes.
When you have less than a half dozen multinational corporations dominating an industry the way that Exxon, BP, Shell, etc dominate the oil industry, wielding the kind of political power that they do (usually in concert) It might as well be a Monopoly.
I think the impact that the use of fossil fuels has on the environment, human health, and the geopolitical landscape is already too high a price to pay.
And then there are other factors that most people probably overlook, like the fact that a mandatory switch over to hydrogen fuel vehicles would seriously **** off all the motorheads that scream up and down the road by my place at 2:00 every morning.
Pogo
Well-Known Member
Brown's gas. LOL you have been fooled.
In early 2017, a man emailed me that angels told him in his sleep to contact me and he resisted calling me until it became unbearable inside of him and he called me, and thus did I began to get to know a man about half my age, whom I would learn in steps is incredibly skilled at many things. He remembered everything he read. I figured his IQ was around 170. Based on many reports from him of angels visiting and talking with him when he was awake and in his sleep, which was new to him, I told him that he had been dragooned by angels It knew all too well and by angels I did not know well, and to grab his best hold. One of his fields of expertise is he can take apart and put back together just about anything that uses an internal combustion engine: cars, trucks, motorcycles, and tractors. Besides regular cars and trucks, he worked on Lotus, Porsche and Ferrari. He is a welder and a machinist. He taught economics in several colleges. He told me about technology in the U.S. Patent Office in Washington, D.C. that allows cars and trucks to run on hydrogen extracted from tap water for what a local water company charge$ for water. The day before yesterday, I asked him to write it down and he did, and I read it, and we talked about some parts of it, and he added a little more to it, and here it is, and below it are my mechanically retarded thoughts about what should have happened in the 1990s and it would have changed the world as we know it. Here is his email to me:
*********************
The Hydrogen powered car is a reality. When it is looked back on, T. Townsend Brown will be the father. Mr. Brown engineered a series of vehicles and internal combustion engines to run on hydrogen and the hydrogen relative known as Yull Brown’s Gas(HHO also called oxyhydrogen). T.T. Brown did this in his lab at Winston Salem NC. The thing that scared so many people aware of his successes was that violent blowback, backfires, and internal flame were inherently an issue with early development of hydrogen as a fuel. With the flammability/combustibility of hydrogen the gas required careful regulation, precisely machined throttle systems, and owners who would take care of their vehicles. Townsend Brown conceptualized two methods: a fuel cell that would contain hydrogen or brown’s gas and protect driver’s from explosions. Brown also proposed that if an anhydride could be formulated, just as kitty litter soaks up the ammonia from cat urine- the right anhydride could be engineered to suck up hydrogen and render it safe
The Atomic Energy Commission was not so happy with Lazar- the anhydride he was manufacturing could potentially be made with a particle accelerator and in the cleaving of hydrogen from water, someone might make a hydrogen bomb. This in the words of Penn & Teller: bull****! Electrolysis could do no such thing with water, it simply transitions water from a liquid to either hydrogen and oxygen or Brown’s gas.
Nevada Representative and later Senator Harry Reid was no friend of development of hydrogen engine. He encouraged overzealous regulatory behavior which stopped much promising research and development, putting pressure on the AEC which was headquartered at Nevada's National Security Site, known informally as Los Alamos National Laboratory.
Lazar was never allowed to market his system because the AEC was hung up on the anhydride. Because Lazar’s patents were restricted, people cannot look at the rough sketch of his system or his anhydride. Lazar’s technology could be installed in a new or used car or truck. In 1992, Lazar advertised $8,000 to put his tech in a car or truck.
In the meantime, others have had special shielding equipment made into their trunks and they install small to medium cylinders of hydrogen, regulators, and then run metal tubing into their fuel injection systems and some will add different methods of top cylinder lubrication. Some produce their own Brown’s Gas via Electrolysis and some refine it further to just get the hydrogen. They use it to charge their cylinders.
For a car the size of a 4 door Toyota Yaris or Prius the 1.6litre engine can range 220-240 miles off a gallon of water, being very precise with the stoichiometry. A heavier sedan with a 2.0 to 2.2 liter engine can range 200 miles on hydrogen or Brown’s gas generated at home.
However as the National Transportation Safety Administration have pointed out on numerous occasions, tanker trucks(18 wheelers) which haul volatile chemicals in gaseous form or at the precipice of change from liquid to gas, to make the hauling of anhydrous ammonia safer, to make hauling acetylene used in cutting torches, propane= anhydrides have been developed to line the tankers hauled on US highways. Those patents are not trade secrets and they use much prior art that is public. The result is quite simply that anhydrides are being developed by private citizens and private corporations to further reduce the risk of the use of hydrogen as fuel. Different methods and different materials, some inspired by kids toys, some inspired by industrial and agricultural applications, and some inspired by government/armed forces use.
There is tremendous potential energy in water. Burning hydrogen is clean and the combustion of the Brown’s gas can lead to the by-product of oxygen release.
Toyota, GM, Hyundai, and Honda have all built hydrogen vehicles and made them safe enough to lease to people who report excellent driveability. They are:
GM Electrovan
Toyota FCHV
Honda FC
Hyundai Tuscon
Toyota Mirai
It is strange that corporations are several generations into hydrogen vehicles. Private citizen scientists, engineers, and tinkerers are coming up with their own home brew setups. But mass production is headed off by the US federal government and automakers who will only test their vehicles off US shores and not sell them, only lease them. Even when the projects are a success the vehicles are recalled as property of the companies and they are destroyed.
Electric vehicles use electricity we don’t have due to the fact we are using the maximum natural resources we have. The batteries that propel these vehicles eventually quit taking a charge- that is the nature of a battery. The problem is that we then have to deal with the waste created by these huge batteries and much of that waste is toxic. How many Yucca Mountains can we have in this country? We should not have the Yucca Mountain we have.
The Buffalo Springfield band had a song: “There’s something happening here, and what it is ain’t exactly clear… …stop, baby, what’s that sound, everybody look what’s going down...”
*******
My mechanically retarded thoughts.
Putting the Brown/Lazar technology in new cars and trucks worldwide would make Mother Nature’s land, sea and air creatures and Her waters, land, air and atmosphere very happy, and would destroy the economies of countries whose main cash cow is oil production. Russia would be up **** creek, as would Iran and the oil producing nations in the Middle East and Venezuela. The oil industries in countries like America, Canada, Great Britain and Norway would be devastated.
Adios gas stations in America and everywhere else. Adios Tesla, etc. The cost of car and truck fuel would be so low that it would be irrelevant. The fuel cost saving$ would be MASSIVE in the private, industrial, manufacturing and all business and government sectors.
I live in a 1950s vintage apartment building in Birmingham, Alabama. All of the tenants park their cars and trucks on the street. There are thousands of apartment buildings in Birmingham, which have only street parking. Where will their tenants charge their electric car batteries? Rhetorical question. Where will Birmingham warehouse worn out several thousand pound electric car batteries full of toxic waste?
Every town, city and county in America will be just like Birmingham if America goes to fully electric cars and trucks. Factor in the rest of the world. That’s CRAZY, when cars and trucks can run on tap water, and humanity can save Mother Nature and the Planet and, DUH, humanity and its pocketbook by using the Brown-Lazar technology in cars and trucks.
Oxyhydrogen - Wikipedia
The problem is not hydrogen production, but the energy cost of liquifying it to transport and store and then the reconversion to electricity to run a motor.
It is more efficient to use the electricity to charge a battery or manufacture some other fuel for a fuel cell. Burning it directly in an ICE, internal combustion engine as was proposed in the 90's is just a joke as you still have all the inefficiencies associated.
All the hydrogen is is a storage method for the electricity produced by some other method. This is chemistry from the 1800s and there is no free lunch.
Pogo
Well-Known Member
The gizmos I saw during the fad were actually electrolyzers that ran off the alternator to generate gas. addition of this to the air stream would cause the engine mapping to be wrong and produce more pollution, which could increase fuel economy but was not any miracle.
You can also inject small quantities of water which would convert to steam a la a steam engine, but lowers the combustion temperature which creates lots of other problems. It is just chemistry and physics and there are no free lunches.
Pogo
Well-Known Member
Mysterious ways?
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Did you watch that at all? I would suggest a better source. He went off into a huge tangent about the fraudulent work of Stanley Miller. Stanley basically thought that the laws of thermodynamics do not matter. He was wrong. His idea never took off because his concept did not work.
Pogo
Well-Known Member
NO, at STP the result is lower in volume actually a liquid, but it still generates heat (exothermic), that heat as in a normal combustion cycle expands the gasses in the chamber to convert the energy of the reaction. That doesn't mean my propane fired refrigerator didn't work, but it "generates" cold by a different method.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
And introducing hydrogen gas into an ICE causes all sorts of problems. Hydrogen as a gas is highly reactive and will even react with steel. It is a very very small molecule so it can enter any cracks in an engine and react there as well. Eventually causing the cracks to grow and to cause "hydrogen embrittlement". There is hydrogen as part of hydrocarbons of course, but it is tied up in molecules with carbon and is not floating around as free H2 gas. It burns readily and safely (for the engine) when those molecules combine with oxygen.
I already posted an article about hydrogen embrittlement on the first page I do believe.
Pogo
Well-Known Member
Nothing to do with burning hydrogen and oxygen.
Pogo
Well-Known Member
That doesn't , but it was nowhere near practical though they are still working on high temperature storage techniques. You just won't find them in pop magazines but in real scientific literature.
Uh uh, just the first few minutes. I've seen a couple of videos with Elon musk talking about hydrogen fuel cells in his plans before and took a chance that this was basically the same thing.
Good idea.
Yeah I just watched the whole thing. I see what you mean.
I'll see if I can find something more along the lines that I had in mind.
Pogo
Well-Known Member
The problem is storage of hydrogen, it is just not easy or ultimately efficient.
I've not heard it.
Gates & Musk came from wealth, but not
anywhere near the scale they achieved.
Of course, Musk is pursuing a rags to
riches back to rags course with Tesla.
Pogo
Well-Known Member
Yes and it takes power from the alternator to separate the H and O and you get just that much back when to recombine them. Stick to Law, stay away from Physics.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Well obviously. He used the wrong liquid metal. There are other metal elements that are liquid at or near room temperature. For example there is cesium. But besides being rather expensive it is not water or even human flesh friendly at all. Rubidium is slightly less reactive, and it may melt in your hand. That is if your hand would last long enough. So lets drop those. But there is gallium. That too will melt in your hand. But it is not liquid at room temperature. But the cool thing about gallium is that it does easily alloy with other metals and they are liquid at room temperature. Gallinstan is one such alloy. It is like mercury used in thermometers. But if you break it you do not have to worry since it is not toxic. It has a freezing point at -2 F. So not very useful as an outdoor thermometer in Minnesota, but we can forgive that.
I am sure that if he tried again with gallinstan he could make his device work and as a plus he would not have to worry about brain damage:
Galinstan - Wikipedia
Oh, one more possibility. NaK, not a good idea. Seriously. Not a good idea at all.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
And SpaceX. Over promise and under deliver is his motto.
Monopolies existed, briefly, but didn't last,
eg, oil in USA.
If monopolization is necessary for huge investment,
then why is this being done in solar & wind, eh.
The only real limits there are imposed by government,
ie, regulation against unsightly installations.
NIMBYs.
And yet, there is vigorous price competition.
Watch Russia, Arab states, USA, & others raise
& lower prices in response to each other.
If there's a global conspiracy, it ain't work'n well.
Which is why alternatives become more & more
competitive, & are seeing greatly increased
investment.
It would also be impossible to switch.
Hydrogen will merely become part of the melange.
Note also that hydrogen is effectively a battery,
ie, not an energy source. This makes it different
from fossil fuels, solar, wind, bio-reactors, & hydro.
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