• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Romeo and Juliet is Terribly Misunderstood by Popular Perception

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
I love the tragedies, especially Hamlet and Macbeth, not so much Romeo and Juliet, but I think the OP is spot on and that is the weakness of the play ... but the strength of the writing makes up for the paucity of plot.

well...I read the tragedy after I watched the Zeffirelli version; (don't forget that Zeffirelli didn't practically write any script. He used the same lines as the play, even if he took some liberties here and there).
Whenever I read the lines of the tragedy, I imagine the film scenes...so I cannot separate the original play from the film any more.
I think that the poetic style makes the play more solemn.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I totally disagree. Shakespeare intended to underline how beautiful romantic love is.
Do you believe in romantic love? I do. I think I fell in love more than thirty times in my life, and I'm still 28. It was always love at first sight, the most romantic thing ever

By the way, if you don't believe that romance exists, it is obvious that you consider Romeo and Juliet two negative characters.
It's beauty what makes you fall in love with a person. I don't understand why people are afraid of accepting that we seek beauty in a person. And actually, only beautiful people deserve to be in a relationship.
As for Agape, that is, spiritual love, both the ugly and the pretty deserve to be loved.

Shakespeare's goal in his works is very clear: he condemns violence and hatred, which destroy love. He just wants to prove that rivalry and hatred prevented two beautiful pure lovers from being happy for the rest of their lives.
It's a love versus hatred battle. Won by hatred, unfortunately
Are you aware of how violent his plays are?
And what is really beautiful about Romeo and Juliet? The highly glorified balcony scene is really nothing more than Romeo praying to every god he can think of hoping Juliet strips naked. Actually the whole is best summed up as a raunchy sex joke with the occasional act of violence. Unlike Hamlet, which is a rather violent play where hardly anyone survives. And what is so beautiful about Romeo and Juliet's ill concieved plan that left them both dead?
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
The highly glorified balcony scene is really nothing more than Romeo praying to every god he can think of hoping Juliet strips naked.


I don't think so. In the balcony scene the two protagonists swear to love each other. And by the way...I don't think that Juliet's sex desire was less intense. She says "

Romeo, doff thy name, And for that name which is no part of thee
Take all myself."

And what is so beautiful about Romeo and Juliet's ill conceived plan that left them both dead?
well...it was Friar Lawrence's genial idea.
all that really matters is the purity of their love.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The highly glorified balcony scene is really nothing more than Romeo praying to every god he can think of hoping Juliet strips naked.

It's somewhat more involved than that. From a purely literary perspective, it's an artistic breakthrough: convention demands that Juliet's soliloquy be just that: a soliloquy. Compare her speech with the ending of Hamlet's "to be, or not to be". There is in the latter a transition allowing Ophelia's part: "Soft you now, the fair Ophelia! Nymph, in thy orisons. Be all my sins remembered."

In Romeo & Juliet, what should be a soliloquy is interrupted and becomes a dialogue. Like the play as a whole, this is the novelty of an artist.

Also, he doesn't hope or express anything about her stripping naked. It's actually somewhat worse, depending upon one's point of view. The clothing, color, and the request that Juliet "cast off" a metaphorical reference to garments is actually an optative or hortatory expression that she give up her virginity.

Actually the whole is best summed up as a raunchy sex joke with the occasional act of violence.

One has to please the groundlings.

Unlike Hamlet, which is a rather violent play where hardly anyone survives.

Hamlet is filled with sex jokes.

And what is so beautiful about Romeo and Juliet's ill concieved plan that left them both dead?

Nothing. But then, nobody reads Shakespeare for the plot.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
A black screen isn't helpful.

And neither, by the way, is an unwanted video with unwanted sounds and visuals. If you have a counter-argument, make it yourself.

It was a TED ed video describing the life of teens in ancient Rome...
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
It's not the battle, it's the absolute shared equality derived from shared tribulation. Unabashed "love" of fellowship vs. teen angst.

Ah.

Still not really feeling it. Sorry.

It was a TED ed video describing the life of teens in ancient Rome...

Gotcha. I've not really watched any of those TED videos, but I'll check that one out at some point.
 
Last edited:

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
One has to please the groundlings.

Hamlet is filled with sex jokes.

Not often taught, but Shakespeare's plays were generally performed in the same districts as brothels and bear-dancers. The target audiences were generally the lower classes of England.

His plays are basically the equivalent to modern blockbusters (that is, the blockbusters that actually have some intelligence and depth behind them; Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Robocop, etc. I'm not talking Michael Bay's or Roland Emmerich's junk.)

Consider A Midsummer Night's Dream (reiterated: my favorite Shakespeare play.) One of the main characters is named Bottom, and his entire joke is that he spends half the play with the head of a donkey. He is, in all senses of the term, a butt-head. LOL

Plus, the opening line:

Now, fair Hippolyta, our nuptial hour
Draws on apace; four happy days bring in
Another moon: but, O, methinks, how slow
This old moon wanes! she lingers my desires,
Like to a step-dame or a dowager
Long withering out a young man revenue.

That's a penis joke.

Or, heck, this famous passage that's one of Shakespeare's finest verse:

(OB)My gentle Puck, come hither. Thou rememberest
Since once I sat upon a promontory,
And heard a mermaid on a dolphin's back
Uttering such dulcet and harmonious breath
That the rude sea grew civil at her song
And certain stars shot madly from their spheres,
To hear the sea-maid's music.
(PUCK) I remember.

(OB)That very time I saw, but thou couldst not,
Flying between the cold moon and the earth,
Cupid all arm'd: a certain aim he took
At a fair vestal throned by the west,
And loosed his love-shaft smartly from his bow,
As it should pierce a hundred thousand hearts;
But I might see young Cupid's fiery shaft
Quench'd in the chaste beams of the watery moon,
And the imperial votaress passed on,
In maiden meditation, fancy-free.
Yet mark'd I where the bolt of Cupid fell:
It fell upon a little western flower,
Before milk-white, now purple with love's wound,
And maidens call it love-in-idleness.


Quite a many references to various sexual anatomies, there.

Shakespeare was quite raunchy.

Nothing. But then, nobody reads Shakespeare for the plot.
Correct. Most do it to pass their English courses.

"'tis true: 'tis true 'tis pity;
And pity 'tis 'tis true: a foolish figure;
But farewell it for I will use no art"

Well, I partially blame the way Shakespeare is taught in English courses. They're generally just presented in the High-Brow, Sophisticated And Scholarly Form, demonstrating that they are the Greatest Works of English Poetry, and are to be reverenced as such.

When they should be taught in such a way that they can be applied to the students and their experiences. High School students aren't really interested in the strange poetry of """Old English""" (seriously, why don't teachers more forcefully correct that misconception? Shakespeare wrote in Early Modern English!); they're only going to be interested in the story and other surface elements. I remember when I first looked up a summary of Hamlet's story, I wondered to myself, "what's so great about this?" I wasn't able to fully appreciate it until I saw where the Yorik scene is placed.

IOW, wanna teach Romeo and Juliet? Show them West Side Story. I'm quite serious. Then tell them about that version I mentioned above, where Romeo's Christian and Juliet's Muslim. (I REALLY wanna see that one.) And THEN, have them write their own stories about star-crossed lovers. (And for crying out loud, don't show that movie with DiCaprio! That movie SUCKED! ...my Freshman English teacher showed that one. Why not the Zeffirelli version? Just because there's like half a second of Juliet's breasts at one point? :facepalm:)

And in the meantime, keep some stuff mysterious. Peak their interest, and then deny them all the knowledge. That will make those who are truly interested seek out the plays for themselves. There's nothing like mystery that makes us want to learn more.
 
Last edited:

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Not often taught, but Shakespeare's plays were generally performed in the same districts as brothels and bear-dancers.
Quite right. Hence my reference to the groundings. That was what they were called, and "a penny t'would cost" to get in.


His plays are basically the equivalent to modern blockbusters
As an ******* purist, I might disagree, but I can certainly see how what you say is true.



That's a penis joke.
Again, the groundlings. Not unlike the lowest common denominator today.


Well, I partially blame the way Shakespeare is taught in English courses

Fair enough. Certainly, had I not read his complete works before being exposed to any in school, I doubt I'd have been able to appreciate any.

They're generally just presented in the High-Brow, Sophisticated And Scholarly Form, demonstrating that they are the Greatest Works of English Poetry, and are to be reverenced as such.

They are now. But during Shakespeare's day, a penny got you into the "mosh pit" (no seats). The crude sex jokes were to appease the lowest common denominator just as they are now.

seriously, why don't teachers more forcefully correct that misconception? Shakespeare wrote in Early Modern English!)
That's he most brilliant statement I've hear in a long time, and is absolutely true.

IOW, wanna teach Romeo and Juliet?
I wasn't particularly inclined to teach pre-College classes (ACTs, SATs, etc.) and so I substituted a certain amount of my own material. For reading comprehension, this often included Shakespeare.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Quite right. Hence my reference to the groundings. That was what they were called, and "a penny t'would cost" to get in.

As an ******* purist, I might disagree, but I can certainly see how what you say is true.

Again, the groundlings. Not unlike the lowest common denominator today.

Fair enough. Certainly, had I not read his complete works before being exposed to any in school, I doubt I'd have been able to appreciate any.

They are now. But during Shakespeare's day, a penny got you into the "mosh pit" (no seats). The crude sex jokes were to appease the lowest common denominator just as they are now.

Yeah. I was basically reinforcing what you were saying with some examples. ^_^

And I definitely can see how one might disagree with the idea that his plays were the equivalent to modern more intelligent blockbusters. But I've long discarded my purist attitudes.

I wasn't particularly inclined to teach pre-College classes (ACTs, SATs, etc.) and so I substituted a certain amount of my own material. For reading comprehension, this often included Shakespeare.
I'm not really sure I understand what you're talking about. I have admittedly not done any real "teaching", myself, so I don't really know the lingo.

I was mostly speaking from my own negative experience, and understanding the negative experience of other students from the many, many misconceptions of what Shakespeare is like in popular culture; then, offering a possible solution.

Then again, I'm of the opinion that Shakespeare isn't meant to be read. As plays, they're meant to be seen, or failing that, heard. I'm all for reading comprehension lessons (and not against using Shakespeare for that, just to be clear), but Ravens know there isn't enough listening comprehension in primary education.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
Are you aware of how violent his plays are?
And what is really beautiful about Romeo and Juliet? The highly glorified balcony scene is really nothing more than Romeo praying to every god he can think of hoping Juliet strips naked. Actually the whole is best summed up as a raunchy sex joke with the occasional act of violence. Unlike Hamlet, which is a rather violent play where hardly anyone survives. And what is so beautiful about Romeo and Juliet's ill concieved plan that left them both dead?
Sex in Hamlet too:

HAMLET
112 Lady, shall I lie in your lap? OPHELIA
113 No, my lord.
HAMLET
114 I mean, my head upon your lap?
OPHELIA
115 Ay, my lord.
HAMLET
116 Do you think I meant country matters?
OPHELIA
117 I think nothing, my lord.
HAMLET
118 That's a fair thought to lie between
119 maids' legs.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Sex in Hamlet too:

HAMLET
112 Lady, shall I lie in your lap? OPHELIA
113 No, my lord.
HAMLET
114 I mean, my head upon your lap?
OPHELIA
115 Ay, my lord.
HAMLET
116 Do you think I meant country matters?
OPHELIA
117 I think nothing, my lord.
HAMLET
118 That's a fair thought to lie between
119 maids' legs.

ROSENCRANTZ: Neither, my lord.
HAMLET: Then you live about her waist, or in the middle ofher favours?
GUILDENSTERN: 'Faith, her privates we.
HAMLET: In the secret parts of fortune? O, most true; she is a strumpet.

Shakespeare even anticipates bawdry interpretations:

HAMLET: And yet, to me, what is this quintessence of dust? man delights not me: no, nor woman neither, though by your smiling you seem to say so.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
ROSENCRANTZ: Neither, my lord.
HAMLET: Then you live about her waist, or in the middle ofher favours?
GUILDENSTERN: 'Faith, her privates we.
HAMLET: In the secret parts of fortune? O, most true; she is a strumpet.

Shakespeare even anticipates bawdry interpretations:

HAMLET: And yet, to me, what is this quintessence of dust? man delights not me: no, nor woman neither, though by your smiling you seem to say so.

Shakespeare had no hair on his tongue...that's why I like his works.
take a look at a passage from Ophelia's madness.

By Gis and by Saint Charity,   Alack, and fie, for shame!
 Young men will do ’t, if they come to ’t.
  By C o c k, they are to blame.
 Quoth she, “Before you tumbled me,
  You promised me to wed.”
 He answers,
 “So would I ha' done, by yonder sun,
  An thou hadst not come to my bed

well...okay...he did mean what people normally think he meant.
 
Top