'Russia is now at war with NATO and the West'

[Debater Slayer]

That is not at all what I meant. And perhaps I am guilty of being flippant and unclear,

I was just pointing out that the combined forces of NATO drastically out match Russia, perhaps by a factor of 10. And I am just talking about conventional forces. NATO is not going to war with Russia, and Russia is not going to war with NATO. Russia can barely handle Ukraine.

Understand that right now NATO is sending a tiny percentage of what they have. If they went to war, they would send it all, with troops. I mean when the U.S. says they are sending Abram tanks what they really mean is they are making Abrams! Like whipping up a batch of cookies for the charity back sale, Russia can’t complete with that, much less all if NATO.

I am not cheering on war between NATO and Russia. I am explaining why it is not going to happen.

Thanks for clarifying. I agree with your points.

 

[sun rise]

The Hatfields and McCoys.

Anyone helping Ukraine will become an enemy to Russia. It doesn't make what Russia is doing right, its just reality.

So an aggressor who attacks other nations, has soldiers who torture and rape is equivalent to the victim in your eyes. Lumping the rapist and the one raped into moral equivalence? Wow. Sad.

 

[We Never Know]

So an aggressor who attacks other nations, has soldiers who torture and rape is equivalent to the victim in your eyes. Lumping the rapist and the one raped into moral equivalence? Wow. Sad.

No thats what you said.

I said "Anyone helping Ukraine will become an enemy to Russia. It doesn't make what Russia is doing right, its just reality.

 

[Estro Felino]

If Americans think that Italians and Germany will send troops...
they are slightly deluded.
I mean...USA can count on UK, that rightfully exited the EU....evidently because of such ambitious plans.

But Germans and Italians are over with wars.

 

[Revoltingest]

I deeply loathe statements that seem to ponder such a situation as if it would be a triumph or something to celebrate. On the contrary, it would be a tragedy adding to the already horrendous events that have occurred, like the invasion of Ukraine and the war crimes that Putin's forces have committed.

Russia is home to over 144m people, many of whom don't like the current direction their country is taking any more than Putin's foreign opponents. If Russia were "wiped off the map," we would be seeing one of the largest-scale acts of genocide in human history. At that point, Russia would lose, Ukraine would lose, and any country that participated in such a crime would lose. We all would.

The problems are the invasion of Ukraine, annexation of its territory, and war crimes as well as widespread loss of life. I don't think we should miss the forest for the trees by focusing so much on notions likely perceived by some to be emotionally satisfying, such as "wiping off" an entire country, instead of realistic solutions that could help Ukraine and minimize further loss of innocent life.

"Wiping Russia off the map" needn't mean
killing'm all. It could mean conquering the
country, & creating 1 or more new ones.

It would be great if Russia ceased to exist,
& it's replacement(s) were less malignant.

 

[Estro Felino]

"Wiping Russia off the map" needn't mean
killing'm all. It could mean conquering the
country, & creating 1 or more new ones.

It would be great if Russia ceased to exist,
& it's replacement(s) were less malignant.

I would like to tell Americans: be honest.
What Americans want is Gazprom and all the rest. All resources. If Putin grants all these things to the American Treasury, the NATO will immediately abandon its anti-Russian plans. Just like that.

 

[Father Heathen]

If Americans think that Italians and Germany will send troops...
they are slightly deluded.
I mean...USA can count on UK, that rightfully exited the EU....evidently because of such ambitious plans.

But Germans and Italians are over with wars.

That's good because they'd only get in the way. Serving spaghetti on the sidelines is sufficient.

 

[Estro Felino]

That's good because they'd only get in the way. Serving spaghetti on the sidelines is sufficient.

UK exited the EU. Basically the EU is led by Germans and Italians. Frenchmen do whatever Germans tell them to do...so...

Back to the topic, the EU will not absolutely join any WW3. That's for sure.

 

[Father Heathen]

I would like to tell Americans: be honest.
What Americans want is Gazprom and all the rest. All resources. If Putin grants all these things to the American Treasury, the NATO will immediately abandon its anti-Russian plans. Just like that.

Innocent people's sovereignty, democracy, freedom, land, and lives are at stake. Civilians are being raped, tortured, and mudered - including children.
People are focused what's actually important and have no reason to entertain goofy far right conspiracy theories.

 

[Father Heathen]

UK exited the EU. Basically the EU is led by Germans and Italians. Frenchmen do whatever Germans tell them to do...so...

Back to the topic, the EU will not absolutely join any WW3. That's for sure.

I don't foresee it being necessary, regardless. Russia's has fallen on it's knees, choaking hard on this conflict.

 

[Estro Felino]

I don't foresee it being necessary, regardless. Russia's has fallen on it's knees, choaking hard on this conflict.

Honestly, I don't care about Russia.
If the US want to wage war against Russia, good for them. Without the EU, though.

 

[Estro Felino]

Innocent people's sovereignty, democracy, freedom, land, and lives are at stake. Civilians are being raped, tortured, and mudered - including children.
People are focused what's actually important and have no reason to entertain goofy far right conspiracy theories.

Perfect. So I need Americans to sign a document that attests that they will not touch Russian resources, including Gazprom and all that will remain property of the Russian treasury, even after Putin is gone. And after the war is over.
Deal?

 

[Father Heathen]

Honestly, I don't care about Russia.
If the US want to wage war against Russia, good for them. Without the EU, though.

I don't want to the U.S. to wage any wars, but I do believe that the free world should defend against unprovoked invasions, war crimes, etc.
Russia is the aggressor. Trying to paint it any other way is dishonest.

 

[Father Heathen]

Perfect. So I need Americans to sign a document that attests that they will not touch Russian resources, including Gazprom and all that will remain property of the Russian treasury, even after Putin is gone. And after the war is over.
Deal?

Why are you trying to make this about the U.S.? You've been told that nobody here gives a **** about your silly conspiracy theory garbage. It's clear you're trying to use it to distract and deflect from what's happening to the Ukrainian people.
After the war, Russia should pay reparations to Ukraine, and those responsible for war crimes and human rights violations should be held accountable.

 

[Estro Felino]

Why are you trying to make this about the U.S.? You've been told that nobody here gives a **** about your silly conspiracy theory garbage. It's clear you're trying to use it to distract people from what's happening to the Ukrainian people.
After the war, Russia should pay reparations to Ukraine, and those responsible for war crimes and human rights violations should be held accountable.

Does this mean the Americans will seize things which belong to the Russkii Narod (Russian People)?


You know...the CIA's credibility is below zero.
So even Putin is 100 times more credible than the CIA.

 

[Stevicus]

I would like to tell Americans: be honest.
What Americans want is Gazprom and all the rest. All resources. If Putin grants all these things to the American Treasury, the NATO will immediately abandon its anti-Russian plans. Just like that.

I think the real answer is that too many Americans are just plain warmongers (even if most of them would rather stay home and let someone else do the fighting). The Powers That Be in America are already rich; they don't need to fight for booty (as if we're Vikings only out to loot, rape, and pillage like in the old days).

The war, therefore, if we judge it by the standards of previous wars, is merely an imposture. It is like the battles between certain ruminant animals whose horns are set at such an angle that they are incapable of hurting one another. But though it is unreal it is not meaningless. It eats up the surplus of consumable goods, and it helps to preserve the special mental atmosphere that a hierarchical society needs. War, it will be seen, is now a purely internal affair. In the past, the ruling groups of all countries, although they might recognize their common interest and therefore limit the destructiveness of war, did fight against one another, and the victor always plundered the vanquished. In our own day they are not fighting against one another at all. The war is waged by each ruling group against its own subjects, and the object of the war is not to make or prevent conquests of territory, but to keep the structure of society intact. The very word ‘war’, therefore, has become misleading. It would probably be accurate to say that by becoming continuous war has ceased to exist. The peculiar pressure that it exerted on human beings between the Neolithic Age and the early twentieth century has disappeared and been replaced by something quite different. The effect would be much the same if the three super-states, instead of fighting one another, should agree to live in perpetual peace, each inviolate within its own boundaries. For in that case each would still be a self-contained universe, freed for ever from the sobering influence of external danger. A peace that was truly permanent would be the same as a permanent war. This — although the vast majority of Party members understand it only in a shallower sense — is the inner meaning of the Party slogan: WAR IS PEACE.

 

[Father Heathen]

Does this mean the Americans will seize things which belong to the Russkii Narod (Russian People)?


You know...the CIA's credibility is below zero.
So even Putin is 100 times more credible than the CIA.

You were already told that nobody here is going to entertain your conspiracy theory garbage, so stop spamming threads with them, especially ones regarding serious subjects.

 

[Estro Felino]

You were already told that nobody here is going to entertain your conspiracy theory garbage, so stop spamming threads with them, especially ones regarding serious subjects.

I can substantiate my claims. We are dealing with Europe here. And I can read sources in Italian, English, French, Spanish, German and Russian.
I do know what's going here in Europe.
Nobody here wants war. Ask around. Ask Macron, Scholz. So when Putin says "we are at war with the NATO" he exclusively means: "we are ar war with the USA who want the war in the first place".

 

[Estro Felino]

I think the real answer is that too many Americans are just plain warmongers (even if most of them would rather stay home and let someone else do the fighting). The Powers That Be in America are already rich; they don't need to fight for booty (as if we're Vikings only out to loot, rape, and pillage like in the old days).

The war, therefore, if we judge it by the standards of previous wars, is merely an imposture. It is like the battles between certain ruminant animals whose horns are set at such an angle that they are incapable of hurting one another. But though it is unreal it is not meaningless. It eats up the surplus of consumable goods, and it helps to preserve the special mental atmosphere that a hierarchical society needs. War, it will be seen, is now a purely internal affair. In the past, the ruling groups of all countries, although they might recognize their common interest and therefore limit the destructiveness of war, did fight against one another, and the victor always plundered the vanquished. In our own day they are not fighting against one another at all. The war is waged by each ruling group against its own subjects, and the object of the war is not to make or prevent conquests of territory, but to keep the structure of society intact. The very word ‘war’, therefore, has become misleading. It would probably be accurate to say that by becoming continuous war has ceased to exist. The peculiar pressure that it exerted on human beings between the Neolithic Age and the early twentieth century has disappeared and been replaced by something quite different. The effect would be much the same if the three super-states, instead of fighting one another, should agree to live in perpetual peace, each inviolate within its own boundaries. For in that case each would still be a self-contained universe, freed for ever from the sobering influence of external danger. A peace that was truly permanent would be the same as a permanent war. This — although the vast majority of Party members understand it only in a shallower sense — is the inner meaning of the Party slogan: WAR IS PEACE.

It suffices to say that when Saudi Arabia invaded Yemen, the US sided with the invaders: the Saudis.
This suffices me.

 

[Debater Slayer]

It suffices to say that when Saudi Arabia invaded Yemen, the US sided with the invaders: the Saudis.
This suffices me.

The US has an atrocious record, but that doesn't excuse Putin or his actions. Siding with Putin isn't any better than supporting what the US did in Vietnam, Afghanistan, or Iraq.