'Russia is now at war with NATO and the West'

[Father Heathen]

I think the real answer is that too many Americans are just plain warmongers (even if most of them would rather stay home and let someone else do the fighting). The Powers That Be in America are already rich; they don't need to fight for booty (as if we're Vikings only out to loot, rape, and pillage like in the old days).

The war, therefore, if we judge it by the standards of previous wars, is merely an imposture. It is like the battles between certain ruminant animals whose horns are set at such an angle that they are incapable of hurting one another. But though it is unreal it is not meaningless. It eats up the surplus of consumable goods, and it helps to preserve the special mental atmosphere that a hierarchical society needs. War, it will be seen, is now a purely internal affair. In the past, the ruling groups of all countries, although they might recognize their common interest and therefore limit the destructiveness of war, did fight against one another, and the victor always plundered the vanquished. In our own day they are not fighting against one another at all. The war is waged by each ruling group against its own subjects, and the object of the war is not to make or prevent conquests of territory, but to keep the structure of society intact. The very word ‘war’, therefore, has become misleading. It would probably be accurate to say that by becoming continuous war has ceased to exist. The peculiar pressure that it exerted on human beings between the Neolithic Age and the early twentieth century has disappeared and been replaced by something quite different. The effect would be much the same if the three super-states, instead of fighting one another, should agree to live in perpetual peace, each inviolate within its own boundaries. For in that case each would still be a self-contained universe, freed for ever from the sobering influence of external danger. A peace that was truly permanent would be the same as a permanent war. This — although the vast majority of Party members understand it only in a shallower sense — is the inner meaning of the Party slogan: WAR IS PEACE.

It's beyond disingenuous to paint the defense of a nation against an improved in invasion "warmongering?
What if it were Alaska that was invaded by Russia?

"Just let them have it. We don't want to start WW3, do we? Too bad for our fellow Americans there who are getting raped, tortured, and murdered by the occupying forces, though. Oh, well."

 

[Estro Felino]

The US has an atrocious record, but that doesn't excuse Putin or his actions. Siding with Putin isn't any better than supporting what the US did in Vietnam, Afghanistan, or Iraq.

Surely. But there is a phrase in the Gospel for that. The US sees the speck of dust in others' eyes.
Matthew 7:3.

 

[Father Heathen]

It suffices to say that when Saudi Arabia invaded Yemen, the US sided with the invaders: the Saudis.
This suffices me.

Was that invasion also unjustified and unprovoked?

 

[Debater Slayer]

Surely. But there is a phrase in the Gospel for that. The US sees the speck of dust in others' eyes.
Matthew 7:3.

That doesn't change that Putin indeed has a massive speck of dust in his eyes. To argue that the inconsistency of the US changes this is a tu quoque.

 

[Estro Felino]

Was that invasion also unjustified and unprovoked?

Yes.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Was that invasion also unjustified and unprovoked?

Yes. It has also led to a widespread humanitarian crisis and famine.

Yemen: Latest Round of Saudi-UAE-Led Attacks Targets Civilians

HRW: US Assistance to Saudi Risks Complicity in War Crimes in Yemen

 

[Father Heathen]

Surely. But there is a phrase in the Gospel for that. The US sees the speck of dust in others' eyes.
Matthew 7:3.

Putin is the "greater evil", and salivating for Putin won't wash the blood of children off his hands.

 

[Estro Felino]

Putin is the "greater evil", and salivating for Putin won't wash the blood of children off his hands.

When the US (Obama and Hillary) come to Europe, and explain me in detail what they did in Libya and why, we can talk about Russia.
If we need to build a world of peace, we need to sort out unsolved issues, first.

Does America want a world of peace?

 

[Debater Slayer]

When the US (Obama and Hillary) come to Europe, and explain me in detail what they did in Libya and why, we can talk about Russia.
If we need to build a world of peace, we need to sort out unsolved issues, first.

Does America want a world of peace? No.

That has no bearing whatsoever on Putin's actions, which stand or fall on their own merits rather than the merits of American policy.

Why are you defending Putin even though you claim to be for peace? Are advocates of peace supposed to defend war criminals and imperialist dictators?

 

[Estro Felino]

That has no bearing whatsoever on Putin's actions, which stand or fall on their own merits rather than the merits of American policy.

Why are you defending Putin even though you claim to be for peace? Are advocates of peace supposed to defend war criminals and imperialist dictators?

Honestly, I don't care about Russians.
I will never support any war waged by the Russians.

I just said I expect Americans not to demand Europe's future cooperation in their future wars, they crave for.

 

[Father Heathen]

When the US (Obama and Hillary) come to Europe, and explain me in detail what they did in Libya and why, we can talk about Russia.
If we need to build a world of peace, we need to sort out unsolved issues, first.

Does America want a world of peace? No.

So you're resorting to whataboutism out of futile desperation. America is guilty of many things, but that doesn't absolve Putin's regime of anything.
There is nothing you could post here that would make child rape okay.

 

[Stevicus]

It suffices to say that when Saudi Arabia invaded Yemen, the US sided with the invaders: the Saudis.
This suffices me.

It should be noted that there's no genuinely "pro-American" reason for taking sides in any particular conflict on the other side of the world. Some 100-150 years ago, if one country in Asia or Europe or Africa invaded another, the typical American view would be "Who cares? It's not our fight."

It wasn't that we were heartless or that we didn't care about people's suffering, but we tended to take a more practical view of the world and America's role in it. Also, people tended to have loyalty to America and only America. Loyalty or favoritism towards other countries was looked down upon and even considered threatening to America's interests.

That's where a lot of dissension within America came about. During the 60s, a lot of people criticized and castigated the anti-war protesters, ostensibly believing that in order to prove one's loyalty to America, one must demonstrate absolute, unquestioned loyalty to the government of South Vietnam. Because anyone who didn't support U.S. militarism was obviously supporting North Vietnam and the Communist Bloc. That's how the warmongering mindset works, with guilt-by-association and "those who are not with us are against us."

 

[Estro Felino]

So you're resorting to whataboutism out of futile desperation. America is guilty of many things, but that doesn't absolve Putin's regime of anything.
There is nothing you could post here that would make child rape okay.

Doublestandardism exists in my vocabulary. And I don't like it.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Honestly, I don't care about Russians.
I will never support any war waged by the Russians.

I just said I expect Americans not to demand Europe's future cooperation in their future wars, they crave for.

Are you okay with European support for Ukraine against Russia, then? Surely a supporter of peace would want the invader to be pressured into ending the war as soon as possible.

 

[Father Heathen]

Doublestandardism exists in my vocabulary. And I don't like it.

I couldn't care less.
Seethe and cope.

It still has nothing to do with what's happening to the Ukrainian people. As I've already stated, America's misdeeds don't excuse or justify Russia's misdeeds. There's only a double standard if someone condones the misdeeds of one while condemning the misdeeds of the other, but nobody here is doing that.

 

[Estro Felino]

I couldn't care less.
Seethe and cope.

It still has nothing to do with what's happening to the Ukrainian people. As I've already stated, America's misdeeds don't excuse or justify Russia's misdeeds. There's only a double standard if someone condones the misdeeds of one while condemning the misdeeds of the other, but nobody here is doing that.

What do you think we should do to make this war terminate, as soon as possible?
Which is what I want.

 

[Stevicus]

It's beyond disingenuous to paint the defense of a nation against an improved in invasion "warmongering?
What if it were Alaska that was invaded by Russia?

"Disingenuous"? That's your opinion, and I see no basis for it.

And we're not talking about Alaska, are we? American territory is not being attacked. American territory is not being threatened.

"Just let them have it. We don't want to start WW3, do we? Too bad for our fellow Americans there who are getting raped, tortured, and murdered by the occupying forces, though. Oh, well."

I've found that it's far better to look at geopolitics from a rational, objective viewpoint, even if it might sound "cold-blooded" to some. Making important decisions when angry, in despair, or some other debilitating emotional state is unwise.

 

[Revoltingest]

I would like to tell Americans: be honest.

I'd like to tell Italians a lot of things.
But the rules prohibit them.

What Americans want is Gazprom and all the rest. All resources. If Putin grants all these things to the American Treasury, the NATO will immediately abandon its anti-Russian plans. Just like that.

Is that what Putin told you?

 

[Debater Slayer]

I've found that it's far better to look at geopolitics from a rational, objective viewpoint, even if it might sound "cold-blooded" to some. Making important decisions when angry, in despair, or some other debilitating emotional state is unwise.

I think that taking measures to put a stop to war crimes, murder of civilians, and large-scale destruction of civilian areas is both rational and necessary. Watching and standing idly by while all of this happens would set a dangerous precedent and throw humanitarian priorities under the bus.

 

[Sand Dancer]

This has been more and more evident as time goes on. NATO now supplying current generation of battle tanks to Ukraine is the latest step in the Russia-NATO war. It's not WWIII but there's not many steps left for NATO to give Ukraine missiles capable of hitting Moscow and Putin's bunker.

'Russia is now at war with NATO and the West': Putin has taken conflict in Ukraine 'to a different stage', senior EU official admits following Germany's decision to supply tanks

Stefano Sannino, secretary general of the European Union's European External Action Service, said Vladimir Putin will increase indiscriminate attacks on civilians and non-military targets and retaliate against the West.

Speaking at a news conference in Tokyo as part of an Asia-Pacific tour, he said Putin had 'moved from a concept of special operation to a concept now of a war against NATO and the West'.

Opinion Putin is embracing Stalin’s way of war
“The military-patriotic hysteria brings to mind the USSR of the 1930’s, the era of parades of athletes, tank mock-ups and dirigibles, and shaved napes,” wrote opposition essayist Sergei Medvedev. “Today, the people again joyfully dress in Red Army uniforms, take pictures of themselves on tanks and await war.” In the endless victory liturgy, Medvedev continued, Putin has forged a nation of war that has “battened the hatches and views the world through the lookout slit of a tank.”
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Putin appropriated the title that Stalin awarded himself at the beginning of the Great Patriotic War: “Supreme Commander-in-Chief.”
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Bakhmut has shown that it’s not just for the rank that Putin looked to Stalin. Stalin’s infamous 1942 Order No. 227, known as “Not a step back,” created penal battalions, or shtrafbats. Staffed with officers and soldiers “guilty of the breach of discipline,” the shtrafbats were sent on kamikaze “human waves” attacks to “redeem by blood their crimes against the motherland.” Those lucky enough to be wounded but not killed were returned to regular units.
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“We drowned the enemy in our blood; we buried him under our corpses,” a war veteran and writer, Viktor Astafiev, recalled in 1988 of his experience in the Great Patriotic War.

The current defense minister, Shoigu, has proposed raising the number of combat personnel in the armed forces from 1.15 million to 1.5 million. Putin is readying for such a war. Ukraine and its Western supporters ought to be steeled for it as well.

Great. A Hitler for our age...