Russia....What It's Like

[Nakosis]

It's the country that never really quite got fully off the ground.
The serfs revolted against he Czar.
But they became cogs under Stalin.
The USSR broke up, but they became subjects under Putin.
The population is dwindling due to war, disease, & emigration.

Putin's child snatchers turning kidnapped Ukraine kids into 'Russian zombies'

KIDNAPPED Ukrainian kids are being sent to sinister “re-education camps” by Putin’s evil child snatchers in a bid to turn them into “Russian zombies”, according to a r…

www.the-sun.com

Russia’s population nightmare is going to get even worse

War in Ukraine has aggravated a crisis that long predates the conflict

www.economist.com

Russian troops 'forced to fight with shovels' due to ammo shortage

The head of the Wagner mercenary force that has led the assault renewed his criticism of Moscow’s military leaders over the weekend and warned that Russia’s positions in the area could be in jeopardy if the supply issues weren’t resolved.

www.nbcnews.com

Mobilization Can’t Save Russia’s War

Russian troops are being trained to be cannon fodder.

foreignpolicy.com

I know this will be controversial.
Some loathe Russia.
Others defend Russians as dupes.
Let the discussion commence.

People obviously can't watch over themselves so they need folks like Putin to do it for them.

 

[Revoltingest]

People obviously can't watch over themselves so they need folks like Putin to do it for them.

Russian culture has long been unfit for liberty.
Slaves who imagine they're masters, eh.

 

[Nakosis]

Russian culture has long been unfit for liberty.
Slaves who imagine they're masters, eh.

I suppose for too long we've been afraid of each other.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Russian culture has long been unfit for liberty.

A hefty generalization there, especially considering that many Russians have been persecuted for desiring liberty since the early days of the USSR up to the present. Beware extrapolating about an entire culture's preferences from its worst and weakest periods or from its supporters of authoritarianism.

I also think a similar argument could be made about a sizable portion of Americans who turn a blind eye to mass shootings, refuse to follow medical precautions even during a pandemic, and want to ban scientific and educational books from schools for ideological and religious reasons. That kind of mindset doesn't exactly seem "fit for liberty" by the same standard you're using to judge Russians, but I wouldn't judge the entirety of American culture as "unfit for liberty."

Slaves who imagine they're masters, eh.

Another generalization. Someone like Alexei Navalny and his supporters are more free than the millions of Americans who thirst for theocracy and support the suppression of their fellow citizens' freedoms.

Why am I bringing up the US? Because I'm trying to use an example that you might find relatable to demonstrate why generalizing about an entire culture or its people is often unfair, inaccurate, and overly biased.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

It's the country that never really quite got fully off the ground.
The serfs revolted against he Czar.
But they became cogs under Stalin.
The USSR broke up, but they became subjects under Putin.
The population is dwindling due to war, disease, & emigration.

Putin's child snatchers turning kidnapped Ukraine kids into 'Russian zombies'

KIDNAPPED Ukrainian kids are being sent to sinister “re-education camps” by Putin’s evil child snatchers in a bid to turn them into “Russian zombies”, according to a r…

www.the-sun.com

Russia’s population nightmare is going to get even worse

War in Ukraine has aggravated a crisis that long predates the conflict

www.economist.com

Russian troops 'forced to fight with shovels' due to ammo shortage

The head of the Wagner mercenary force that has led the assault renewed his criticism of Moscow’s military leaders over the weekend and warned that Russia’s positions in the area could be in jeopardy if the supply issues weren’t resolved.

www.nbcnews.com

Mobilization Can’t Save Russia’s War

Russian troops are being trained to be cannon fodder.

foreignpolicy.com

I know this will be controversial.
Some loathe Russia.
Others defend Russians as dupes.
Let the discussion commence.

I'd rather actually go to Russia myself and see it firsthand than trust what those sources say about it.

 

[Revoltingest]

A hefty generalization there....

Of course.
It gets discussions going better than carefully hedged claims.

....especially considering that many Russians have been persecuted for desiring liberty since the early days of the USSR up to the present. Beware extrapolating about an entire culture's preferences from its worst and weakest periods or from its supporters of authoritarianism.

You just offered evidence of their being unsuited
for liberty, ie, they never manage to achieve it.

I also think a similar argument could be made about a sizable portion of Americans who turn a blind eye to mass shootings, refuse to follow medical precautions even during a pandemic, and want to ban scientific and educational books from schools for ideological and religious reasons. That kind of mindset doesn't exactly seem "fit for liberty" by the same standard you're using to judge Russians, but I wouldn't judge the entirety of American culture as "unfit for liberty."

Many here are indeed not suited for liberty.
But we've achieved more than Russia has.

Another generalization. Someone like Alexei Navalny and his supporters are more free than the millions of Americans who thirst for theocracy and support the suppression of their fellow citizens' freedoms.

I don't speak of every single individual in Russia.
But the country as a whole...the Russian culture,
has long eschewed liberty.

Why am I bringing up the US? Because I'm trying to use an example that you might find relatable to demonstrate why generalizing about an entire culture or its people is often unfair, inaccurate, and overly biased.

One might also say whataboutism.
But I wasn't going there til you opened that door.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'd rather actually go to Russia myself and see it firsthand than trust what those sources say about it.

I know people who've emigrated from there &
traveled there. They had interesting experiences.
I took a semester of Russian once long ago. The
pronunciation was fun. I was top'o me class!
Except for the 1 student who already spoke it.
That was odd.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Of course.
It gets discussions going better than carefully hedged claims.

I prefer quality over quantity when it comes to discussions. Any inflammatory or needlessly controversial claim (e.g., the Earth is 6,000 years old, the Moon landings were fake, George Soros runs the EU, etc.) can generate a lot of discussion, but not all of it is productive.

You just offered evidence of their being unsuited
for liberty, ie, they never manage to achieve it.

There are various reasons that prevent people from achieving liberty besides "their culture is unfit for it!"

There have been many failed, co-opted, or successfully foiled revolutions in history. That doesn't necessarily mean the people dealing with the ensuing dictatorships are "unfit for liberty" or don't appreciate it.

Many here are indeed not suited for liberty.

But we've achieved more than Russia has.

The Founding Fathers also enshrined the apparatuses of the state in the Constitution, without which it would be quite possible for the US to fall into authoritarian disarray even now. This means that the work of just several people formed the foundation for an entire country's democracy when said country was in its infancy.

Russia's starting point as a "republic" was fundamentally different from that: from the outset, the Bolsheviks were authoritarian, extremely violent, and intransigent. The head of the state could basically do as he pleased without being held back by any checks and balances or separation of powers.

I don't speak of every single individual in Russia.
But the country as a whole...the Russian culture,
has long eschewed liberty.

See above. It's not hard to see why a "country as a whole" has never had liberty when the price of trying to demand liberty or organize any protest against the status quo has long included death, suppression, persecution, and threats to oneself and one's family.

One might also say whataboutism.
But I wasn't going there til you opened that door.

I made sure to explain why I used the US as an example precisely because I assumed that "whataboutism" might come up as a response.

 

[Revoltingest]

I prefer quality over quantity when it comes to discussions. Any inflammatory or needlessly controversial claim (e.g., the Earth is 6,000 years old, the Moon landings were fake, George Soros runs the EU, etc.) can generate a lot of discussion, but not all of it is productive.

Not much quality there, fella.

There are various reasons that prevent people from achieving liberty besides "their culture is unfit for it!"

There have been many failed, co-opted, or successfully foiled revolutions in history. That doesn't necessarily mean the people dealing with the ensuing dictatorships are "unfit for liberty" or don't appreciate it.

You might be presuming that I claim Russians
don't deserve liberty. Only that they don't
pursue it effectively.

The Founding Fathers also enshrined the apparatuses of the state in the Constitution, without which it would be quite possible for the US to fall into authoritarian disarray even now. This means that the work of just several people formed the foundation for an entire country's democracy when said country was in its infancy.

Despite your misgivings, we've
increasingly enjoyed liberty.
More so than Russia or Egypt.

Russia's starting point as a "republic" was fundamentally different from that: from the outset, the Bolsheviks were authoritarian, extremely violent, and intransigent. The head of the state could basically do as he pleased without being held back by any checks and balances or separation of powers.

This is just more of the
same for Russian history.

See above. It's not hard to see why a "country as a whole" has never had liberty when the price of trying to demand liberty or organize any protest against the status quo has long included death, suppression, persecution, and threats to oneself and one's family.

I made sure to explain why I used the US as an example precisely because I assumed that "whataboutism" might come up as a response.

This seems irrelevant.

 

[Stevicus]

Many here are indeed not suited for liberty.

Yes: Conservative radio host Jesse Kelly says America needs a dictator

 

[Revoltingest]

Yes: Conservative radio host Jesse Kelly says America needs a dictator

I advise her to move to Russia.

 

[Stevicus]

I advise her to move to Russia.

Her?

 

[Debater Slayer]

You might be presuming that I claim Russians
don't deserve liberty. Only that they don't
pursue it effectively.

I'm not presuming that you're claiming so; only that your generalization about Russian culture is oversimplified.

Despite your misgivings, we've
increasingly enjoyed liberty.
More so than Russia or Egypt.

And currently less than at least a dozen countries (and more depending on which factors we're considering), but that's beside the point. I'm just pointing out that having liberty or a lack thereof involves numerous factors aside from the (perceived) culture of a country. There will always be many people in any nation, regardless of what the prevalent culture is, who desire freedom, self-determination, and basic rights. The question is why and how they sometimes don't achieve these goals.

I'm also unsure how you concluded that my point was an expression of a misgiving. Rather, it's to highlight that just a few or several people in power can drastically influence and change an entire country's system of government, a fact that reinforces the complexity and diversity of factors involved in how much liberty a country has, well beyond a "culture unfit for liberty."

This is just more of the
same for Russian history.

See above.

This seems irrelevant.

How is it irrelevant? Do you think a ruling class's brutal suppression of dissent is irrelevant to the issue of why Russia—or any other dictatorship—has no liberty?

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm not presuming that you're claiming so; only that your generalization about Russian culture is oversimplified.

You seem overly defensive of Russians.
Their history under various regimes speaks for itself.

And currently less than at least a dozen countries (and more depending on which factors we're considering), but that's beside the point. I'm just pointing out that having liberty or a lack thereof involves numerous factors aside from the (perceived) culture of a country. There will always be many people in any nation, regardless of what the prevalent culture is, who desire freedom, self-determination, and basic rights. The question is why and how they sometimes don't achieve these goals.

I'm also unsure how you concluded that my point was an expression of a misgiving. Rather, it's to highlight that just a few or several people in power can drastically influence and change an entire country's system of government, a fact that reinforces the complexity and diversity of factors involved in how much liberty a country has, well beyond a "culture unfit for liberty."



See above.



How is it irrelevant? Do you think a ruling class's brutal suppression of dissent is irrelevant to the issue of why Russia—or any other dictatorship—has no liberty?

You & I both have nothing to add.

 

[Debater Slayer]

You seem overly defensive of Russians.
Their history under various regimes speaks for itself.

It may be worth explaining why I'm challenging your comments: it's mainly because I deeply empathize with Russians who oppose Putin's regime and similar dictatorships but have no say in their government's actions and no way to effect major change within their country's politics.

You know where I come from in the world. If an outsider were to look at my region and say, "Those people are unfit for liberty," that would be a stark misrepresentation and condescendingly inaccurate statement about my own values and what I have striven for in my life so far. I don't want some random person to assume that I or people I know and care about are "unfit for liberty" just because of our region's present situation. We want liberty, stability, and prosperity as much as you and many others do. Instead of simplifying the long, tangled web of problems we have to deal with and ascribing them to our supposedly having X or Y culture, it would be much better to look into the various issues and factors that have led to this point and consider how each of them could be addressed.

I don't value liberty less than you do just because of the coincidence of where each of us was born, and vice versa. I also know I'm not alone in my desire for it. I'm sure many Russians feel the same way as I do about liberty. Maybe they're also trying to emigrate like I am.

 

[Revoltingest]

Her?

Did I mis-gender someone?

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm not presuming that you're claiming so; only that your generalization about Russian culture is oversimplified.



And currently less than at least a dozen countries (and more depending on which factors we're considering), but that's beside the point. I'm just pointing out that having liberty or a lack thereof involves numerous factors aside from the (perceived) culture of a country. There will always be many people in any nation, regardless of what the prevalent culture is, who desire freedom, self-determination, and basic rights. The question is why and how they sometimes don't achieve these goals.

I'm also unsure how you concluded that my point was an expression of a misgiving. Rather, it's to highlight that just a few or several people in power can drastically influence and change an entire country's system of government, a fact that reinforces the complexity and diversity of factors involved in how much liberty a country has, well beyond a "culture unfit for liberty."



See above.



How is it irrelevant? Do you think a ruling class's brutal suppression of dissent is irrelevant to the issue of why Russia—or any other dictatorship—has no liberty?

It seems that you ignore a trend by
claiming exceptions, & by citing
suppression as reason for the trend.

 

[Revoltingest]

It may be worth explaining why I'm challenging your comments: it's mainly because I deeply empathize with Russians who oppose Putin's regime and similar dictatorships but have no say in their government's actions and no way to effect major change within their country's politics.

You say no way. But this is
because opposition is weak.

You know where I come from in the world. If an outsider were to look at my region and say, "Those people are unfit for liberty," that would be a stark misrepresentation and condescendingly inaccurate statement about my own values and what I have striven for in my life so far. I don't want some random person to assume that I or people I know and care about are "unfit for liberty" just because of our region's present situation. We want liberty, stability, and prosperity as much as you and many others do. Instead of simplifying the long, tangled web of problems we have to deal with and ascribing them to our supposedly having X or Y culture, it would be much better to look into the various issues and factors that have led to this point and consider how each of them could be addressed.

I don't value liberty less than you do just because of the coincidence of where each of us was born, and vice versa. I also know I'm not alone in my desire for it. I'm sure many Russians feel the same way as I do about liberty. Maybe they're also trying to emigrate like I am.

I hope every country that lacks liberty finds it.
But some are less suited to fighting for it than others,
be it comfort under the yoke, or theocratic leaning.
This isn't about individual exceptions like you.

 

[Stevicus]

Did I mis-gender someone?

Jesse Kelly is male.

 

[Revoltingest]

Jesse Kelly is male.

My familiarity with fervent partisan talking heads is indeed woeful.