Salvation is a totally FREE GIFT: (the pearl)

[javajo]

Hi! I wasn't sure where to put this and I thought maybe people of all faiths would enjoy sharing any thoughts or insights (or objections or whatnot) that come to mind so I put it here. Its a "christian" story, about the idea of salvation being a free gift, however it is just for sharing purposes only, I'm not trying to convert anyone or preach or anything like that. I just like the story and wanted to share it, no proselytizing intended here, please!

Okay. So, there's this story of a christian missionary who became a good friend of an Indian pearl diver...Having discussed salvation for many hours, the Hindu could not believe it could be a free gift. He thought perhaps it could come from walking the nine hundred miles to Delhi on his knees. But the missionary said he believed salvation was so costly that Jesus had to buy it for us.
Before leaving on his pilgrimage, the Indian gave the missionary the largest and most perfect pearl he had ever seen. He explained that his own son had lost his life in getting this pearl from the bottom of the sea. The missionary thanked him, but then insisted that he pay for it. The Hindu was very offended, saying that there was no price that could be paid for a pearl that had cost him his only son whom he loved.
Then and there it dawned on him that that is why (most) Christians insist that no one can pay for salvation. They believe it cost God the death of his only Son and that to think we can pay for it is an insult indeed. That although grace is free to us it was very costly to God.

Here are a couple Bible verses that some Christians believe teach that salvation is free to us but costly to God:

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold...But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 1 Peter 1:18-19

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

Thanks, and I hope you enjoyed the story!

[loosely copied from "How You Can Be Sure That You Will Spend Eternity with God", by Erwin W. Lutzer]

 

[Father Heathen]

A sacrifice suggests a loss. What did god lose, exactly?

 

[tumbleweed41]

A sacrifice suggests a loss. What did god lose, exactly?

Very good question!

 

[javajo]

Hi, the Bible says that God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son...so what did he lose? I don't know that he lost anything, but he did give us his Son to die, thus paying the penalty of sin (death). Of course he got him back so he never lost him, but he did give him. Part of which entailed his leaving the glory of Heaven, becoming human, being mocked, scourged, crucified and also becoming sin for us. That is apart from the physical suffering and death, he bore our iniquities, he paid the penalty and suffered and died in our place and was forsaken so we may be freely forgiven. I believe it is hard for any father to watch a child endure suffering and on the scale Jesus suffered it must have been unimaginable having, born the sins of the whole world.

 

[tumbleweed41]

In other words, there really was no loss. Despite it all, all was regained. Not only regained, but exalted.

 

[Falvlun]

It is a good analogy, but the whole thing still doesn't make much sense. God is the one who set the cost: It didn't have to cost him his Son. He chose for that to be the price. (And, as Tumbleweed pointed out, he didn't lose Jesus for good.) And the whole idea of a scapegoat-- a whipping boy-- to be punished for our own transgressions, how does that help us to grow? to learn? How does that solve any problems?

 

[Otherright]

I believe it is hard for any father to watch a child endure suffering and on the scale Jesus suffered it must have been unimaginable having, born the sins of the whole world.

You're right, it is quiet unimaginable. As you stated he was forsaken, but you contradict yourself in the next sentence by suggesting God watched this. You were right the first time. According to Mark, Jesus says, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabacthani?" My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me?

Of course this was all well and fine in 55 AD when Mark was written, but by the time John is penned as a non-synoptic theological telling of the story, somewhere between 90-105 AD, we can't have Jesus dying alone (besides it breeds Docetic ideologies), so the final words have to be, "Father into your hands I commend my spirit."

But I can see where you get mixed up, because the story changes often.

 

[javajo]

What I believe and am trying to convey somewhat poorly, and I am not addressing 'growth' issues here, but salvation. Is most religions teach a salvation earned by what WE do, that it is our goodness, our merits, our works, our service and morality that somehow earn salvation. But salvation is not something we could ever earn because nobody could be good enough to meet God's holiness. I believe there is a spiritual law that all have sinned and the penalty for sin is death. Out of love for us, God provided the way to reconcile us to him and still be just toward sin. Christ paid the penalty, he came here and died so all who believe in him may have eternal life for free. It makes it so that whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved, no matter what they have done.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Christ paid the penalty, he came here and died so all who believe in him may have eternal life for free. It makes it so that whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved, no matter what they have done.

If Christ died for all, but only those who "calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved", then it would seem that his "sacrifice" is something less than completely efficacious.

BTW - if it's "free", then why all that talk in the Bible about the believer's yoke and burden being light? "Light" does not equal "weightless"; "low cost" does not equal "no cost".

Edit: and that's all if we take the story at face value. For me at least, accepting the salvation arrangement you suggest would mean giving up my moral sense and my rationality, among other things. That's quite a heavy price... definitely not "free", IMO.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Something just occurred to me:

The Hindu was very offended, saying that there was no price that could be paid for a pearl that had cost him his only son whom he loved.
Then and there it dawned on him that that is why (most) Christians insist that no one can pay for salvation. They believe it cost God the death of his only Son and that to think we can pay for it is an insult indeed. That although grace is free to us it was very costly to God.

This line of reasoning is irrational. Is your God irrational?

 

[no-body]

You need a story and set of rules for your salvation/enlightenment, which is fine in and of itself. The mistake is trying to apply it to everyone else.

 

[javajo]

If Christ died for all, but only those who "calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved", then it would seem that his "sacrifice" is something less than completely efficacious.

Right.

BTW - if it's "free", then why all that talk in the Bible about the believer's yoke and burden being light? "Light" does not equal "weightless"; "low cost" does not equal "no cost".

Jesus said we may all come to him freely. I believe the passage was rebuking the heavy laws the religious leaders tried to impose on people. But salvation is a free gift, not of works lest any man should boast.

Edit: and that's all if we take the story at face value. For me at least, accepting the salvation arrangement you suggest would mean giving up my moral sense and my rationality, among other things. That's quite a heavy price... definitely not "free", IMO.

I don't believe God would want you to do that either. For me, I know I am a terrible sinner and am grateful for God's provision of a way of reconciliation that is apart from my own merit so I may have compete confidence in his saving power and fullness of assurance. I am also grateful that now that I am saved that he doesn't leave me the way he found me but that he corrects me and leads me and helps me grow in grace. Anyway, I understand you believe differently about God and salvation than I do so I respect that.

 

[javajo]

Something just occurred to me:


This line of reasoning is irrational. Is your God irrational?

I hope not.

 

[PolyHedral]

Something just occurred to me:


This line of reasoning is irrational. Is your God irrational?

This.

 

[javajo]

You need a story and set of rules for your salvation/enlightenment, which is fine in and of itself. The mistake is trying to apply it to everyone else.

Its just what I believe about God and salvation. I feel it applies well to a sinner such as myself. I am only sharing my belief, as I stated in the beginning post. I want people to be sure I am not trying to force my beliefs or trying to apply them to everyone else, I'm only stating them. The story is just to illustrate one example of why Christians such as myself (not all) believe salvation is a free gift, and that, to me, is a good thing.

 

[Adonis65]

I believe the best way we can show our gratitude for Jesus' sacrifice, is to fear God & keep His commandments. The Savior did His part, and now must do ours....

 

[Falvlun]

What I believe and am trying to convey somewhat poorly, and I am not addressing 'growth' issues here, but salvation. Is most religions teach a salvation earned by what WE do, that it is our goodness, our merits, our works, our service and morality that somehow earn salvation. But salvation is not something we could ever earn because nobody could be good enough to meet God's holiness. I believe there is a spiritual law that all have sinned and the penalty for sin is death. Out of love for us, God provided the way to reconcile us to him and still be just toward sin. Christ paid the penalty, he came here and died so all who believe in him may have eternal life for free. It makes it so that whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved, no matter what they have done.

The part I bolded is the problem right there. Is God not the Creator of the Universe? The Maker of All Laws? He could have made the law be whatever he wanted it to be. He could have said "Yes, I understand that these humans can never be as perfect as me, but I accept their honest efforts." Which makes a whole lot more sense than punishing a completely innocent person for the crimes of other people.

The red part is another thing God could have changed. He didn't need to make the penalty for sin, any sin, to be death. In fact, it's an incredibly unjust law. I mean, would you consider it a just judicial system in which rapists and people who steal candy bars all get the capital punishment?

And you know what? If he wanted to reconcile man to God, God to man, all he had to do was say "Hey, you guys, I forgive you." No human-god sacrifice necessary. Is he not God?

 

[javajo]

The part I bolded is the problem right there. Is God not the Creator of the Universe? The Maker of All Laws? He could have made the law be whatever he wanted it to be. He could have said "Yes, I understand that these humans can never be as perfect as me, but I accept their honest efforts." Which makes a whole lot more sense than punishing a completely innocent person for the crimes of other people.

The red part is another thing God could have changed. He didn't need to make the penalty for sin, any sin, to be death. In fact, it's an incredibly unjust law. I mean, would you consider it a just judicial system in which rapists and people who steal candy bars all get the capital punishment?

And you know what? If he wanted to reconcile man to God, God to man, all he had to do was say "Hey, you guys, I forgive you." No human-god sacrifice necessary. Is he not God?

I understand your line of reasoning. I must confess I do not believe I have the knowledge available to me to understand why and how God provided a way for us to be reconciled to him, only what he has revealed in his word. On the subject, Paul wrote in Romans 11:33-34,36

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

 

[Otherright]

What I believe and am trying to convey somewhat poorly, and I am not addressing 'growth' issues here, but salvation. Is most religions teach a salvation earned by what WE do, that it is our goodness, our merits, our works, our service and morality that somehow earn salvation. But salvation is not something we could ever earn because nobody could be good enough to meet God's holiness. I believe there is a spiritual law that all have sinned and the penalty for sin is death. Out of love for us, God provided the way to reconcile us to him and still be just toward sin. Christ paid the penalty, he came here and died so all who believe in him may have eternal life for free. It makes it so that whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved, no matter what they have done.

When you say many religions, do you mean many denominations? Because Dharmmic religions don't have such concepts in them. Nor does Judaism.

Scripturally, there are apparently many path to salvation, for the nature of salvation, as it is mentioned in the scriptures are at times self-contradicting and are open to wide range of interpretations, as is evidenced through various denominations.

Even sub-sets within denominations vary. General baptists believe it to be through grace, by faith, and maintained by work. Missionary baptists see it as through faith, by grace, requiring no other works.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

When you say many religions, do you mean many denominations? Because Dharmmic religions don't have such concepts in them. Nor does Judaism.

Buddhism has Theravada, Mahayana, Vajrayana, Shingon, Chan...