Salvation is a totally FREE GIFT: (the pearl)

[Skwim]

You can't ask for faith. Faith is something you give to god because he gives no reason to believe, if god gives you reason to believe then it isn't faith, it is god proving his existence.

Exactly.

Believers too quickly indulge in ennobling prose without giving its meaning and implications a second thought.

 

[javajo]

"FREE GIFT" :cover: Hardly. If it was then there wouldn't be all the hoops one has to jump through to get it. Here's just one example.

Requirements for Salvation

Belief

Repentance

Baptism

Live a Godly life

Confess with your mouth

Believe God raised Jesus from the dead

Believe in the virgin birth

Believe in the rapture

source
​

One must only believe in Christ. To believe in, or rely on Christ's finished work on the cross to have paid for our sins.

 

[javajo]

You can't ask for faith. Faith is something you give to god because he gives no reason to believe, if god gives you reason to believe then it isn't faith, it is god proving his existence.

I believe faith is a gift of God as the verse says: 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Ephesians 2:8 Jesus said God would give the Holy Spirit to those who ask. It also says God does not take back his gifts.

 

[Otherright]

I believe faith is a gift of God as the verse says: 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Ephesians 2:8 Jesus said God would give the Holy Spirit to those who ask. It also says God does not take back his gifts.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves.
Through faith... through our faith, by the use of our faith.

The Ephesians verse doesn't have anything to do with it being by faith.

 

[Adonis65]

Some will get to go to Heaven, but may not have the same rewards as others or position in Christ's Kingdom, yet still be saved. That's what I believe anyway.

So where do you fit in the grand scheme of things? Have you allowed the Holy Spirit to take total possession of your body & mind, or does He just have partial dominance over you?

 

[javajo]

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves.
Through faith... through our faith, by the use of our faith.

The Ephesians verse doesn't have anything to do with it being by faith.

Not sure what you are trying to get at. It says we are saved through faith and that not of ourselves, it is the gift of God. I don't believe we must have great faith, our faith needn't be great, but the object of our faith must be. Sometimes our faith is strong, other times it seems almost non-existent, but that' ok, doubts are good because they cause us to probe a bit and we may end up with an even stronger faith. But all that is needed, I believe, is that one-time faith. Like if one is in a high building that is on fire, the firemen hold the net and we have faith in the net and jump, once we jump we are saved (if the object of our faith is strong). So, I believe once we trust Christ, bam, we are saved forever.

 

[Skwim]

One must only believe in Christ. To believe in, or rely on Christ's finished work on the cross to have paid for our sins.

This still remains a requirement; something a person must do to get salvation, which means it's not free.

free (fr

)adj. fre·er, fre·est

Not controlled by obligation or the will of another
Not affected or restricted by a given condition or circumstance:

​

One requirement or thirty, it all boils down to the same thing, salvation does not qualify as free, a gift, a free gift, or a totally FREE GIFT.

 

[Otherright]

Not sure what you are trying to get at. It says we are saved through faith and that not of ourselves, it is the gift of God. I don't believe we must have great faith, our faith needn't be great, but the object of our faith must be. Sometimes our faith is strong, other times it seems almost non-existent, but that' ok, doubts are good because they cause us to probe a bit and we may end up with an even stronger faith. But all that is needed, I believe, is that one-time faith. Like if one is in a high building that is on fire, the firemen hold the net and we have faith in the net and jump, once we jump we are saved (if the object of our faith is strong). So, I believe once we trust Christ, bam, we are saved forever.

No, salvation is a gift, faith is required.

 

[javajo]

So where do you fit in the grand scheme of things? Have you allowed the Holy Spirit to take total possession of your body & mind, or does He just have partial dominance over you?

I am probably one of the very worst, vile, disgusting, wretched, miserable, low down, dirty, good for nothing, selfish, over indulgent, sinful, etc. etc. etc. Christians you would ever meet.

 

[Skwim]

No, salvation is a gift, faith is required.

And salavation no more qualifies as a gift then it does as condition freely given. Stop kidding yourselves, salvation requires something from the recipient before it's given. It's neither free nor a gift. And them's your rules!

 

[javajo]

This still remains a requirement; something a person must do to get salvation, which means it's not free.

free (fr

)adj. fre·er, fre·est

Not controlled by obligation or the will of another
Not affected or restricted by a given condition or circumstance:

​

One requirement or thirty, it all boils down to the same thing, salvation does not qualify as free, a gift, a free gift, or a totally FREE GIFT.

The Bible calls it a gift and faith is differentiated by works. I must go by what the Bible teaches for myself. Here are some verses that teach salvation is a gift, and I am thankful that it is.

Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water. John 4:10 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 5:15-18, 6:23 Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 2 Cor. 9:15, Ephesians 2:8, 3:7, 4:7

 

[javajo]

And salavation no more qualifies as a gift then it does as condition freely given. Stop kidding yourselves, salvation requires something from the recipient before it's given. It's neither free nor a gift. And them's your rules!

How else can I say this. I believe it is a gift we accept. For example, if someone gives you a brand new car for free and they hand you the key, you must believe they are giving you a free car, believe it is safe and works ok, accept the key, get in the car and drive it, fully trusting its free and reliable. When one trusts Christ they must accept him through faith believing he did pay for their sins and fully place the matter of their salvation into Christ's hands. That's what I believe.

 

[Adonis65]

I am probably one of the very worst, vile, disgusting, wretched, miserable, low down, dirty, good for nothing, selfish, over indulgent, sinful, etc. etc. etc. Christians you would ever meet.

Are you saying that the Holy Spirit has no place within you?

 

[javajo]

Are you saying that the Holy Spirit has no place within you?

Not saying that.

 

[Skwim]

The Bible calls it a gift and faith is differentiated by works. I must go by what the Bible teaches for myself.

Then I assume you don't regard "gift" with it's commonly accepted definition:

gift (gft)
n.
1. Something that is bestowed voluntarily and without compensation.
​

Rather

1. Something that is bestowed voluntarily and with compensation.
​

And I then assume you too bestow gifts in the same manner, with expected compensation either before or after the fact.

How else can I say this. I believe it is a gift we accept.

Or decline.

For example, if someone gives you a brand new car for free and they hand you the key, you must believe they are giving you a free car, believe it is safe and works ok, accept the key, get in the car and drive it, fully trusting its free and reliable.

That would be pretty much everyone else's notion of a gift: no strings attached. (The belief and trust aspects being irrelevantl.)

When one trusts Christ they must accept him through faith believing he did pay for their sins and fully place the matter of their salvation into Christ's hands. That's what I believe.

So what's your point? You still don't get salvation free of any restrictions or conditions or circumstances. Salvation requires you do X. And that requirement means it's neither free nor a gift. That is, under the normal definitions of the words. Your definition was obviously concocted so as to allow these words to apply to god's conferred salvation. But go ahead and attach the words "free" and "gift" to this salvation, we'll just have to keep in mind that you're not using them the way everyone else does. But to tidy up this point of likely confusion in future discussions may I suggest that you simply create new words for your notion of "free" and "gift."

 

[Klaufi_Wodensson]

How could God lose his son if he is his son as well?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I was joking.

I gathered that - it still doesn't address the point I raised.

I will try to clarify, and this is just my beliefs, I am not asking anyone to believe how I do, I am just sharing my personal beliefs. If I said I'll give you a car for free if you pay me $100 a month for 12 months, then its not free. If I said salvation is free but then said you had to work real hard to get it and maintain it by doing lots of good works, i.e. church participation, witnessing, praying, reading the Bible performing ceremonies and sacraments and helping the needy, etc, etc. then its not free by faith, it is of works.

Right... in any arrangement of the form "if you do ____, I'll give you ____", the thing being given isn't free.

For instance: "if you have faith in Christ, I'll give you eternal life."

You can argue that it's a good bargain if you want, but that still doesn't make it "free".

The Bible separates believing faith from works. Believing is hard to do for many, but it is not considered a work.

Why not? It's still something that someone does. What are your criteria for whether something is a "work" or not?

If someone gives someone a gift, they have to accept the gift. If someone is drowning in the middle of the ocean and I give them a life preserver, they must trust that it will save them and accept it and put it on. I believe it is the same with Jesus, we have to stop relying on our own good works and our own goodness or anything we do and rely on him to save us and put our trust completely in him and his finished work on the cross. That's what I believe anyway.

What you describe is a work: putting on a life jacket is something that I do myself. And if you throw me a life preserver and I don't (or can't) put it on, then you haven't saved my life.

Not sure what you are trying to get at. It says we are saved through faith and that not of ourselves, it is the gift of God. I don't believe we must have great faith, our faith needn't be great, but the object of our faith must be. Sometimes our faith is strong, other times it seems almost non-existent, but that' ok, doubts are good because they cause us to probe a bit and we may end up with an even stronger faith. But all that is needed, I believe, is that one-time faith. Like if one is in a high building that is on fire, the firemen hold the net and we have faith in the net and jump, once we jump we are saved (if the object of our faith is strong). So, I believe once we trust Christ, bam, we are saved forever.

You realize that firemen don't actually do that any more, right? They abandoned it when they developed better techniques and equipment. Now, instead of just holding out a net, telling you to jump and hoping for the best, they bring in an aerial truck, go up to your window, pick you up and carry you to the ground. No "faith" is required on the victim's part at all.

The only reason firemen did the net thing in the past was because they didn't have the ability to go up and grab the person themselves.

Is God as capable as a modern firefighter?

 

[idea]

a faith vs. works thread?
I believe it takes both - faith and works, not either or.

The Lord will render to every man according to his works, Prov. 24:12.
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, Matt. 5:16
He that doeth the will of my Father shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, Matt. 7:21

 

[Falvlun]

a faith vs. works thread?
I believe it takes both - faith and works, not either or.

The Lord will render to every man according to his works, Prov. 24:12.
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, Matt. 5:16
He that doeth the will of my Father shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, Matt. 7:21

So you do not believe that salvation is a free gift?

The way I traditionally understood the faith vs works argument is that salvation only requires faith but if you are "truly saved", then it will manifest in your life by good works. "Faith without works is dead" and all that jazz. If faith is what allows us to be saved, and faith is dead, well, it's probably not working very well in the saving department.

 

[idea]

...and faith is dead...

not either or, I believe that it takes both. Faith and works are inseparably connected, you cannot have one without the other.

our actions are born of faith - we will not try a recipe out if we do not first have faith that it might taste good....
through faith our actions are magnified - if we never had any faith in the recipe, we would have never tried it out, we would have to learn how to cook on our own and would never come to the recipe (created through generations) in our lifetime. ... "if I have seen farther than others it is because we have stood on the shoulders of Giants" - Issac Newton... have to have enough faith to stand on the shoulders of Giants in order to see farther...

imagine living without faith - trying to invent the wheel on our own, living like cave-men refusing to read books etc. etc. .. when we can trust sources outside of ourself, and act on knowledge that was gained by others - this is the fastest way to progress. It takes both faith/trust in what we read, and then work - actions which test the info and verify/nullify it.